A tip to all hopeful game makers.

Started by RoseSkye, February 29, 2012, 04:29:15 am

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RoseSkye

Pick a genre and stay with it...
Stop bloody trying to throw in everything and a cow. Take the time to plot out and brainstorm instead of just doing crap.

Storyboard
Write ideas on notepads
PLAN
and for the love of god flesh out your stories.


I would not give two fucks if Breast McTits died  if I didnt get the time to know her. You make characters endearing and 3 dimensional and MAKE the person experiencing the game mourn the losses. I am bloody sick of seeing amateur games with potential fall short because they want to copy cool things they saw other people do.

Here is another tip... stop compiling on scripts in the absence of actual content.

sasofrass

Couldn't agree more with you lol.

Had a friend who started his own game with RMVX and had it "completed" in just 2 months time. I went to play it and it was very buggy, the story was nonexistent really, it was alright for the first 1/10th of the game then it just died. Not to mention the mapping was horrendous and extremely half-ass'd. I did manage to play through it, about 4 hours total in playable content, mainly because it was filled with so many random enemy encounters it just took so long to get from point A to B. The final boss was a disgrace, he had one ability and that was he healed himself when below 50% health.

I told him the game was awful and said I would give him a 2/10. He got extremely upset with me and we stopped talking lol. I was like  :???:

I, myself, have been working on a game for about 6 months now and I feel like I am just getting to the point where I could release a short demo for it. Maybe in another month? Who knows!

Subsonic_Noise


Futendra

I agree with this, I at first had 100s of projects running at once, not one has ever been finished, now I started with a basic idea, worked that out for a month or two and started working around it in game. Now I am working around 3 months on my game now and it is SLOWLY getting shape, no more games with "Yeah, that random girl you don't know, well she has lost her boyfriend. go find her boyfriend, he is in the forest, somewhere..."

MarkHest

I agree. Sticking with a special gendre that is something just for you will work out the best for both the developer and gamer. Sure it's good to have inspiration from other games and all, that's how the game comunity is built, but as you said:

QuoteI am bloody sick of seeing amateur games with potential fall short because they want to copy cool things they saw other people do.


They realy should focus on their strong sides instead of the top moments of another games...
A game will work out the best when you enjoy making it and adding a tip of your personality and interests in it. That way the story will become more precise, you know what you're doing and you know how to do it.
When i started The Missing Part i knew exactly what i wanted to do becouse i thought of making my own game, not another version of other games. So far things have been working out pretty good for me :)
   

Heretic86

My biggest gripe about hobbyist games is many seem to think that stories come from Walls of Text.  I dont mind long winded dialogue, but for christ sake, put some freakin animations in, or do something more than just have two characters face each other for twenty minutes plus straight!  Give the characters gestures.  Make those very simple movemets we are limited to reflect their body language.  Make them express their emotions through their movements.  Bring them to LIFE!

Gripe #2.  I dont want to read a book about a story where I am literally reading a book inside of the book about a story within another story, I want to experience a story with the characters.  When characters start telling useless stories, I start yawning.  When I live the experience with the characters and listen to them talk to each other as people would be expected to talk to each other, I can experience what they experience through their eyes, I see them react to an event, I can relate to their reaction, when they come up with a clever idea, I feel clever as well, when they are devestated by the loss of another character, then and only then am I just as devestated as the characters are, and when I accomplish something major enough that it is cause for celebration, then I celebrate that achievement as well.  Let the Characters Experience the Story so I can Experience it through their eyes.

Gripe #3.  I dont want to try half assed stuff.  If it is the very first map you've ever made, I dont really wanna play it.  I want to see your Masterpiece.  And those only come one or a few in a Lifetime.  Revise your stuff until it is PERFECT.  Movies go through a lot of revisions because they are very limited by the ammt of time they have to show the movie in.  Games are quite different in that we can play the same game for hours on end, and if we are satisfied with the Gameplay, but just because it isnt expected to be two hours in length does not give free license to ramble on forever about shit that would put a caffeine addict wired up on enegry drinks and four gallons of octane into a narcoleptic coma.

Dont be afraid to trim some of the fat.  If your dialogue is too long, find a way to revise it, get the important information across, and make it better, make it funnier, or make it more heart felt, or make it more goal oriented.  If it is too short, pad it out with meaningful content.

Gripe #4.  I need to know where I am supposed to go.  If I am expected to make my own discovery, then box me in to a smallish area and let me find what I am supposed to find quickly, without wasting multiple hours on trying to find out I need to press enter while standing in front of a tree with a hole in it.  Direction should be provided by character reinforcement and dialogue.  Getting off track or I forget what the hell I am supposed to be doing, then use the characters as tools to guide me to where I am supposed to go, but dont just expect that I am somehow psychic and know I should go back to the town where I started.  Im impatient, and many times I like to just skip through the story, so reinforce the idea that I need to go back to town when I start getting off track, and take advantage of multiple opportunities to reinforce that idea.  "Where are you going?  We need to get back to Bobville and talk to the Mayor!"

Just some of my own personal minor annoyances that even the "pros" still do.
Current Scripts:
Heretic's Moving Platforms

Current Demos:
Collection of Art and 100% Compatible Scripts

(Script Demos are all still available in the Collection link above.  I lost some individual demos due to a server crash.)

Calintz

@herectic:
those must be universal gripes. couldn't have said it better myself.

MarkHest

April 11, 2012, 02:48:41 am #7 Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 02:51:00 am by MarkHest
@Heretic86: I agree with most of what you're saying. However i disagree a bit with what you said about the story part. If it's an RPG with turn based battles then there's not much you can do exept reinforce your game with an interesting and long storyline with lots of dialogues.
But you did say that we can bring the long chats to life with animations and movement, this is a very good idea for people that create games with a very detailed story(Like me). Right now my conversations within my game misses a lot of movements and animations but i am going to change that, trust me.
Some people wants a story while others wants gameplay.
We're talking about RPG's here so story telling is unavoidable but as you said, use your full potential and "Bring them to LIFE!"
So yeah, take heed to what is said within this thread.

I just wanted to state this for those game makers that have their games focused on storyline. Listen to Heretic86 and your game might become more popular in the final release. He is wise  :haha:

   

Heretic86

Im wise enough to know that at times, even I may be a total Dumbass!   :facepalm:
Current Scripts:
Heretic's Moving Platforms

Current Demos:
Collection of Art and 100% Compatible Scripts

(Script Demos are all still available in the Collection link above.  I lost some individual demos due to a server crash.)

Seltzer Cole

It is probably best to know how your storyline will begin and end before you even create it. Otherwise, you are commencing blindly.

One thing I hate most is how people create a game based on zombies or some other popular idea. If you are going to create your own version of a popular idea, than please make it better than what has already been created.

Another downfall is basing a game on storyline to the point where you literally feel like it is some sort of movie. Nobody honestly cares so much about your storyline that they want to sit there watching clip after clip. Its a game, not a movie. (Reminds me of FF13 with its damn 40 minute storyline clips)

~ Toodles
You know you play video games to much when you put sunglasses on and whisper "Plus 10 Appearance"

If at first you don't succeed, call it version 1.0

Calintz

hey, i enjoyed FFXIII's storyline clips thank you!

Heretic86

I didnt really care for FFXIII all that much.  Sure it was absolutely gorgeous, but I never felt any sense of accomplishment when I think I should have.  On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd have to rate the game about a B minus.

Its one of those things that is really hard to put my finger on exactly why it didn't 100% click with me.  I had fun with a lot of stuff, but left me feeling like I ate chinese food, where 15 minutes later, I was hungry again.  It could have been the Encyclopedia Fal'Cie'atica that drove me nuts.  I think what I wanted was to be in control of the characters as those critical story elements unfolded for me.  It was too much like watching a movie.  Ok get to another spot in a forest, play random unrelated custscene where Spaz, er Saz's kid gets turned into a L'Cie, and I wasnt in control of him, then return to forest.  Like watching a movie by throwing a dvd in and hitting random on all the chapters...  I think what I wanted was the story to be a bit more linear (exploration to have been less linear), and when something happened to the characters, to have been in control of them just before that important story event happened.

Of course, who am I to speak?  I havent exactly released a game yet.  Still working on polishing scripts, developing my Art Style and Story Telling Style.  But I did put together a Demo a while ago based on exactly what I was saying earlier.  It grew into more than that, but Im not working on developing it any further right now, well, till I get some time to focus on it...

http://www.775.net/~heretic/downloads/rmvx/index.php (actually an XP game, I put in wrong folder...)

Do you think I hit the mark on my own advice (from above), or did I miss it completely?
Current Scripts:
Heretic's Moving Platforms

Current Demos:
Collection of Art and 100% Compatible Scripts

(Script Demos are all still available in the Collection link above.  I lost some individual demos due to a server crash.)

G_G

Quote from: Heretic86 on April 11, 2012, 11:08:03 pm
I didnt really care for FFXIII all that much.  Sure it was absolutely gorgeous, but I never felt any sense of accomplishment when I think I should have.  On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd have to rate the game about a B minus.

Its one of those things that is really hard to put my finger on exactly why it didn't 100% click with me.  I had fun with a lot of stuff, but left me feeling like I ate chinese food, where 15 minutes later, I was hungry again.  It could have been the Encyclopedia Fal'Cie'atica that drove me nuts.  I think what I wanted was to be in control of the characters as those critical story elements unfolded for me.  It was too much like watching a movie.  Ok get to another spot in a forest, play random unrelated custscene where Spaz, er Saz's kid gets turned into a L'Cie, and I wasnt in control of him, then return to forest.  Like watching a movie by throwing a dvd in and hitting random on all the chapters...  I think what I wanted was the story to be a bit more linear (exploration to have been less linear), and when something happened to the characters, to have been in control of them just before that important story event happened.

Of course, who am I to speak?  I havent exactly released a game yet.  Still working on polishing scripts, developing my Art Style and Story Telling Style.  But I did put together a Demo a while ago based on exactly what I was saying earlier.  It grew into more than that, but Im not working on developing it any further right now, well, till I get some time to focus on it...

http://www.775.net/~heretic/downloads/rmvx/index.php (actually an XP game, I put in wrong folder...)

Do you think I hit the mark on my own advice (from above), or did I miss it completely?


DO NOT play FF13 part II. Its confusing all the way up until the end, and then it kills off the main character, and slaps a To Be Continued right in your fucking face. >:\

Heretic86

@MarkHest

I hadn't really considered the dialogue during battle scenes.  Youre right, we cant exactly move the characters around, well, at least with RMXP's default setup.  A clever person could find a way to use Dialogue to bring those characters to life, even during a Boss Fight or Random Encounter.  Older Final Fantasy games seems to have set the standard for having Dialogue during Cutscenes, IMHO.  The dialogue could imply that the party has to work together as a Team, and use a certain degree of Strategy in order to beat a Boss.  Or maybe its an easy way to introduce a brand new character to the party.

It would be kind of a shame to have an incredible game that dries up during Fight Scenes.  If there is that much dialogue in a game, it is almost to be expected that there should be at least some conversation in Fights as well.  I even have fun going through tutorials in Fight Scenes!  Especially with non default RM Scripts that can do incredible things as they need to be understood by the player!  Its like the perfect opportunity for Special Stuff to have the Characters Banter, like a Reflect Spell, so players can learn as the characters learn, which to me, is allowing the Player to experience things as the Characters experience them!

Props to you on that statement, Sir!
Current Scripts:
Heretic's Moving Platforms

Current Demos:
Collection of Art and 100% Compatible Scripts

(Script Demos are all still available in the Collection link above.  I lost some individual demos due to a server crash.)

MarkHest

Don't get me wrong, i still think your Gripes are awesome and correct. Only the dialogue thing bothered me a bit so i felt like i needed to state my mind in that matter.

There's something i would like to add to this.

There are tons of other ways of reinforcing your RPG's with storytelling and dialogues. There is the very clichée, overused and awe-inspiring DUNGEON traveling! Nobody realy likes a game full of dungeons

(This is from my opinion only, take note of that)
Please, oh, PLEASE!! Do not overuse dungeons in your game for crying out loud! If there's anything i hate most it would be when i play a game that has random encounters and tons of boring dungeons that you have to travel through.
And even if you do have a lot of dungeons, at least keep them interesting.
Do not use the normal: "We must go to this dungeon and get the key to that castle"


So you go to the dungeon and it looks like this:

  • Find switch

  • Go through tons of corridors with tons of random encounters to the place you just unlocked

  • Come to a new bigger place within the dungeon

  • Find the new switch and press it

  • Go to the door you unlocked

  • Find a key to another door

  • and once you're done with all the boring stuff you get to fight a boss at the end as usual which has no background story whatsoever...



Try to keep it interesting instead of doing the same thing over and over and OVER AND OVER!! I hate games that keep using dungeons as a timewaster as dungeons are never realy fun at all, it's the same thing as any other game that uses this idea.

Now, i'm not saying you should not put dungeons in your game. I'm just saying that you should try and make it interesting instead of doing the same thing over and over(see the list above).
Remember that a game is supose to be fun, not annoying.
So how do we make a dungeon fun? With a bit of creativity you can go a long way.

(remember, that this is till stated from my opinion.)

First of all, we need to look at a dungeon in a different way. When you say the word Dungeon, what's the first thing that comes to mind...? That's right, puzzle solving, random encounters, looking for keys etc...
We must first change how we use the word dungeon. Do not think of it as a... well... dungeon :facepalm:
Instead try to think of this place as a different area within the outside world. Forget the word dungeon or cave or temple, whatever you wanna call it. Try to imagine this place as just another place within the overworld where lots of cutscenes, exploring, boss fights and story relevant things can happen.
It's is realy hard to explain what i mean, but i am trying my best.

It's okay to fetch a key for a door or pressing a switch for it. But not over 50 times in a single dungeon...
Another thing is to keep the story up even within the dungeon. Add a few cutscenes, make some easter eggs, make mini-games, make the characters experience the dungeon as well and not just yourself.

I hope you get my point, i must go now.
   

Calintz

i powered you up for your response. very thorough, very positive. to mention that a creator should change the way they think about dungeons at it's core is an extremely productive piece of advice. you did a great job explaining yourself. good work. that was a great post.

p.s. minecart mayhem.

Seltzer Cole

Quote from: MarkHest on April 12, 2012, 07:03:52 am
So you go to the dungeon and it looks like this:

  • Find switch

  • Go through tons of corridors with tons of random encounters to the place you just unlocked

  • Come to a new bigger place within the dungeon

  • Find the new switch and press it

  • Go to the door you unlocked

  • Find a key to another door

  • and once you're done with all the boring stuff you get to fight a boss at the end as usual which has no background story whatsoever...



(remember, that this is till stated from my opinion.)


This made me lol. Extremely true, but I will admit that the only games I didn't mind that had meaningless dungeon crawls are the games that I don't even care for storyline, and I only play to focus on lvling and owning. For example Dark Stone for playstation or even sacred for the PC. But yeah, if your game lacks in epic battles, there is no sense in making someone dungeon crawl and fight some meaningless boss that seemed to be a newly discovered species amongst NPCs.
You know you play video games to much when you put sunglasses on and whisper "Plus 10 Appearance"

If at first you don't succeed, call it version 1.0

GrimTrigger

A few things:

If one thing makes me rage more than anything in RPGs, it's the feeling of being "forced" to stay in one region versus another, simply because of some contrived plot device. I never want to say to a player "hurr durr you can't go cross bridge bc I says so." I understand, given the limits of 2D rgps, that some linearity is required, but I try to mask it as best as I can. Instead of keeping someone from entering a region by placing guards that tell you to gtfo, I try to make it so the player willingly avoids regions until the appropriate time. Often I do this by making regions much more difficult to handle, so that it isn't possible for a weak player to survive. I don't tell them no, but I give them the back of the hand if they try anyway. (BTW I play test a lot, so I make sure you can power-level yourself into soloing the game.)

Another thing I hate is how there is an almost completely linear progression in the gear that the player finds available in shops/caves/etc as he/she advances throughout the game. It's as if, by sheer coincidence, the exact path you took to complete the game just so happened to be the one that progressively allows you to acquire better stuff. I combat this in two ways. The first way is to have shops offer a wider selection of goods, but have the best stuff pricey and out of the players reach for quite some time. The second way is to have the better gear available in the richer cities, so that if you are out in the middle of nowhere, you don't have access to premium shopping. If you want high-end gear, hit up the high-end cities.

The last thing I wish more RPGs included was a more believable dialogue. I hate walking up to an NPC and reading "I like turtles".....that's not acceptable in my book. I have many towns, and the people (during the day when they are out) all have something relevant to talk about. Frequently they gain new things to say after checkpoints in the story are met. I have old women who talk about the history of the town, young men who talk about the cute girls hanging out by the antique store, and soldiers who complain about all sorts of things you'd expect them to be pissy about. Essentially, try to make talking to NPCs worth the 30 plus seconds of your time. I find I play a lot of games now where I talk only to those who I need to.

Just my thoughts.

~Grim


Heretic86

I havent finished a game yet, but here is what I'm doing just to deal with the story related issues you described.

I created a variable called "story" in my game, and increment that each time a major plot point takes place.  That way I can go through to each NPC event and try to give them more relevant dialogue to both guide the player to where they are supposed to go next, and make those NPC characters seem a bit more self aware of the happenings of the game.
Current Scripts:
Heretic's Moving Platforms

Current Demos:
Collection of Art and 100% Compatible Scripts

(Script Demos are all still available in the Collection link above.  I lost some individual demos due to a server crash.)

GrimTrigger

Quote from: Heretic86 on April 17, 2012, 10:47:39 pm
I havent finished a game yet, but here is what I'm doing just to deal with the story related issues you described.

I created a variable called "story" in my game, and increment that each time a major plot point takes place.  That way I can go through to each NPC event and try to give them more relevant dialogue to both guide the player to where they are supposed to go next, and make those NPC characters seem a bit more self aware of the happenings of the game.


That's a pretty good idea.

Another thing I'd add is to spend a lot of time on each *major* town or city, and try to make them relevant across the whole story. Allows, like you mentioned, for the NPCs to stay up to day on the latest happenings, and also cuts down on the number of places you need to create. (I have about 5 major cities, 11 minor towns, and a whole slew of tiny villages.) I never liked in some RPGs how a whole city can be only useful for one or two quests, and then you never need to set foot in it again. I try to have the player revisit cities, keeping them relevant, and giving plenty of incentive to explore them. I tend to make my cities fairly large, and even a small town will have upwards of 15 homes, plus an inn, shops, amenities.

For example, I start the player off in an upscale town of medium size, with a large cathedral, several shops, an inn, and several homes. There is a small park, farms outside the main walls, and a slew of street vendors. Many of these locations are of significant importance, plus a few homes can lead to side quests. You don't get to access all the quests all at once, and you may find yourself hopping in a carriage or walking back after an hour or so of play, but you feel like the towns are actually *alive* with activity.


Heretic86

Just out of curiousity, do any of you allow the player to go "behind the counter" in shops and inns and allow the player to have "non-business" conversations with the shopkeepers?
Current Scripts:
Heretic's Moving Platforms

Current Demos:
Collection of Art and 100% Compatible Scripts

(Script Demos are all still available in the Collection link above.  I lost some individual demos due to a server crash.)

Blizzard

I think I did add that on a few occasions in CP. But it's usually just simple stuff like "Talk to me from the other side of the counter if you want to buy something".
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Subsonic_Noise

You could also have them say something like "What are you doing here? This is for employees only" and have them push the player away. :P

Heretic86

I think Shop Owners are more important characters than people tend to realize.  If they run a shop, as game designers, we imagine their only purpose is to sell the player their items, services, and goods.  But, from their perspective, they see a LOT more than just the player.  They see others that came in to buy things that might not necessarily be used for a purpose that is inline with the players assigned goals.

Just my two cents, but Shop Owners being used as story telling mechanics could be utilized to heavily expand the depth of ones in game universe.  "I have a bad feeling about those last guys that bought all those swords from me!"
Current Scripts:
Heretic's Moving Platforms

Current Demos:
Collection of Art and 100% Compatible Scripts

(Script Demos are all still available in the Collection link above.  I lost some individual demos due to a server crash.)

Calintz

that's a good point. if you feel like your storyline has begun to dull in the specific city that you're in, or you find that there is quite a bit of free time between two plot events; you could give the character a quick laugh.

GrimTrigger

In my never ending quest to add life to my cities and towns, I try to make shops a bigger part of gameplay. For example, I reasoned the shopkeepers would meet a lot of people throughout the day, so I include a "rumors" option for them. They can fill you in on local news, provide side quests, and sometimes give you background information to bolster the main plot. In addition, weapon and armor vendors can inform you of the local tough guys (who would frequent these places) and sometimes provide training.

Heretic86

/agree

It seems to me that the non essencial text of the story that a player isnt forced to read is what brings RPG games to life!  So instead of having one NPC saying something useless for the entire story (hence that story variable suggestion I made earlier) like "I like cheese", depending on how far a player has progressed through the story, what they say can be more relevant to the current events.  But thats kind of just repeating what I said earlier.  Ok, now I got a thing in my head that I want to do where if the player goes behind the counter and talks to one of the Shop Keepers, he asks them why they arent wearing any Pants!  Just something to make the player giggle briefly...
Current Scripts:
Heretic's Moving Platforms

Current Demos:
Collection of Art and 100% Compatible Scripts

(Script Demos are all still available in the Collection link above.  I lost some individual demos due to a server crash.)

GrimTrigger

Here's a question for you all....do any of you break up what items are sold in a shop, such that crafting items, healing items, and armaments are sold in different locations?

I tend to follow , as a rule, that the larger and more prosperous a town is, the more specific a shop's inventory becomes. In my capitol city, I have multiple shops along the "main street" that sell various things, but each one has a specific theme. One is standard recovery item shop, whereas its competitor sells alternative medicine, which can be more expensive, but sometimes have added effects. I also break up armor and weapons in the rich cities, and the capitol has two weapon shops that sell slightly different gear.

ShadowPierce

Quote from: GrimTrigger on April 19, 2012, 08:12:57 pm
Here's a question for you all....do any of you break up what items are sold in a shop, such that crafting items, healing items, and armaments are sold in different locations?

Yes. I have both the armor and weapon shops in a single building. Food & recovery in a cafeteria, herbs & alchemy materials are sold by a botanist, pet items in a barn, forging materials in a blacksmith, and a few smaller shops in a "bazaar" that sell miscellaneous alchemy, forging and recovery items. ;)

Quote from: Heretic86 on April 19, 2012, 05:21:15 am
Just my two cents, but Shop Owners being used as story telling mechanics could be utilized to heavily expand the depth of ones in game universe.  "I have a bad feeling about those last guys that bought all those swords from me!"

Sounds like an interesting idea. :D They can be excellent clue-givers to help players progress in their plot. A great example would be the majority of the "Tales Of" games... :haha:

And yes, NPCs may seem like just a bunch of unimportant characters to make the city look less empty but they actually play a vital role in creating the feel for an RPG and making the game look like a real living, breathing world. Just my thoughts... :P

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GrimTrigger

Quote from: ShadowPierce on April 19, 2012, 08:46:08 pm
Yes. I have both the armor and weapon shops in a single building. Food & recovery in a cafeteria, herbs & alchemy materials are sold by a botanist, pet items in a barn, forging materials in a blacksmith, and a few smaller shops in a "bazaar" that sell miscellaneous alchemy, forging and recovery items. ;)


Like I said before, depending on the wealth and size of a town, I may choose to keep weapon and armor shops separate. I enjoy dense cities, but I hate having tons of generic homes (to pillage for stuff of course  :naughty:) so I through in lots of services.

I'm trying to get the food and drink script to work, and once I get it working, I'll put in restaurants and bars. Maybe I'll find a way to incorporate drunkenness into the game.

ShadowPierce

Quote from: GrimTrigger on April 19, 2012, 09:15:22 pm
I'm trying to get the food and drink script to work, and once I get it working, I'll put in restaurants and bars.

Making a thirst/hunger system sounds like a fairly easy task. If you have a basic understanding of RGSS, you can easily do this. ;)

Quote from: GrimTrigger on April 19, 2012, 09:15:22 pm
Maybe I'll find a way to incorporate drunkenness into the game.

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GrimTrigger

Another tip I can add (while taking into account my noobishness) is to try to find ways to cheat during your game. Check walls, try to obtain strong equipment as fast as possible, try to find ways around restrictions, etc....

>I found out during my play testing that I had messed up the map in a single cell, allowing the player to waltz straight into a guard tower that, upon entering, triggers one of the "end-game" switches, unleashing random encounters with MAJORLY strong monsters....

>Another time, I realized I forgot to charge money for specific services that grant you can item. Easy click-sell-repeat exploit.

I find sometimes, because YOU are familiar with the game, you have a natural tendency to play the way you are *supposed* to play by default. Nothing makes me more mad than not catching a mistake until much later on.

Heretic86

Test those games thoroughly as youre developing them!  Some bugs I dont mind, but really, if I find one of those bugs like you mentioned, and I know it is just a human mistake, I'd have to say it knocks the quality of the game down like ten notches.  A lot of slack will be cut for the indy game, but when I see it in professional games, it gets on my nerves.
Current Scripts:
Heretic's Moving Platforms

Current Demos:
Collection of Art and 100% Compatible Scripts

(Script Demos are all still available in the Collection link above.  I lost some individual demos due to a server crash.)

GrimTrigger

Quote from: Heretic86 on April 20, 2012, 04:07:18 am
Test those games thoroughly as youre developing them!  Some bugs I dont mind, but really, if I find one of those bugs like you mentioned, and I know it is just a human mistake, I'd have to say it knocks the quality of the game down like ten notches.  A lot of slack will be cut for the indy game, but when I see it in professional games, it gets on my nerves.



I find the most annoying thing in a game where you can tell the creator simply pulled something out of their *** to make the story progress. I know sometimes I have a really cool idea, and I write it all down, plan it out, but can't seem to find a way to make it fit into the story. Sometimes, in my opinion, a person working on a story can get so caught up in throwing in "cool stuff" that they forget to make a story believable.



djskagnetti

My game is set underground.  There are only 3 cities.  Each city except for the largest city contains only shops/inns, a mayor's house, and maybe 1 or 2 others for the richest people in the towns.  Due space constraints from living underground, not everyone can own a "flesh and bone home", so they created something called Pockethouses, which is basically a house set in a dimensional rift that they teleport to.  You can buy your own Pockethouses and buy better upgraded versions, all the way up to your own paradise island.  Everything in the world that is not a city is a thematic dungeon of varying shapes and sizes, styles and elements called the Wilds.  Every dungeon connects to the next dungeon.  Basically, to get from 1 city to another, you have to battle your way through one giant dungeon.  There are crystals along the way that teleport you back to the city, which unlocks the 2nd crystal in the city so it becomes like a 2-way teleporter to an area, so you don't have to walk back the whole way to heal up and buy stuff, and also kind of provides a checkpoint in a way.

Which is like everything you guys just said not to do LOLOL

GrimTrigger

Quote from: djskagnetti on May 21, 2012, 06:22:56 am
Basically, to get from 1 city to another, you have to battle your way through one giant dungeon.  There are crystals along the way that teleport you back to the city, which unlocks the 2nd crystal in the city so it becomes like a 2-way teleporter to an area, so you don't have to walk back the whole way to heal up and buy stuff, and also kind of provides a checkpoint in a way.

Which is like everything you guys just said not to do LOLOL


Do you allow access via teleporter selectively? In other words, do you have each teleporter go to one or more specified places, or does each teleporter handle all unlocked areas? I have set up a horse drawn carriage system similar to that found in skyrim to allow players to access cities they've been to already, as well as reach new ones without walking. I only set it up to handle the closest locations, and it's expensive to use.

djskagnetti

Nope, just one crystal that goes to one area from a city or vice versa.  Which I guess makes the city kind of a hub, you could transfer to the city from one area and then use a different crystal to go to another area.  A few cost money to use, but most don't, once it's unlocked it's unlocked.   It's actually hard to get other cities because you could use a transporter that gets you close but you'll have to battle your way for the rest of the trip.  It's not until late in the game that the cities become connected through transporters.  Ps.  Skyrim put a HUGE dent in my rpg making time, twice, lolol

ConflictedX3

I want to Give a personal thank you to Roseskye, i read this post about 9 days ago and i hadn't worked on my game in MONTHS, but somehow that stanza of opinion gave me a burst of inspiration and i've spent the last week+ cleaning up a project i thought wouldn't be able to contend with these super fancy, a million scripts games.

Now i picked my lane, trying to expand within' that lane, use what i need & have to the best of my abilities and have become weary of throwing in things that aren't going to improve my game and are in truth some ultimately useless, flashy, but randomly (& thus poorly) implemented feature.

In the words of one of those lil b fans: TYBG (Thank You, Based God)
Would you believe Im a Rapper who owns his own Indie Label too? On top of my RPG Maker Interests? No? WELP! --> http://soundcloud.com/conflictcp  & POW!: http://www.youtube.com/user/IOIEntertainment

Landith

OMG Lil B...lmao

I agree though, some great tips in this topic.

R.A.V.S.O

Quote from: GrimTrigger on April 19, 2012, 06:31:52 pm
In my never ending quest to add life to my cities and towns, I try to make shops a bigger part of gameplay. For example, I reasoned the shopkeepers would meet a lot of people throughout the day, so I include a "rumors" option for them. They can fill you in on local news, provide side quests, and sometimes give you background information to bolster the main plot. In addition, weapon and armor vendors can inform you of the local tough guys (who would frequent these places) and sometimes provide training.


Actually what I once did was... have a town purposely give you crappy items for very huge prices, but if you
decided to actually walk over the counter and talk to the shopkeeper you could get better items by exchanging (not gold) other less valuable items. like... potions at 600 gold, (crappy deal) if you walked over the counter...
you could strike up a bargain of 2 hi-potions for an ether,

also another tip... make a town HATE you XD

You've seen this before, (*cough* FFIV *cough*) a town where shopkeepers either sell you the items at extremely inflated amounts of cash or plain deny you the service of a weaponry & armory (+ inn-keeping if you're really aching for some NPC hate), also have the NPC's either deal damage, place unwanted ailments. and trigger hate cut-scenes XD

just because there's a town in the middle of a world map does NOT necessarily mean it IS a haven with cheap inns and a conveniently placed save spot (if any)

bonus points if by sheer story progress you actually make the town start accepting you, that actually incorporates player bonding which in return adds to comical situations
Personality Test results
Spoiler: ShowHide




"Life is unfair, so make it unfair in your favor" -Sesilou

GrimTrigger

That's a pretty good idea. I make the prices of equipment cost a lot more than you'd find in standard RPGs, but the other items like potions are still affordable. I start the game off in an older, more remote town as a way to limit access to high powered goods. If you want the good stuff, you need to travel to a major, wealthy city, but be prepared to pay top dollar. The best items are quest related, so I prevent the player from farming up a money (korean RPG style) to buy an overpowered weapon and break the game.

I have NPCs that have 3 levels of dialogue. Talking to Npcs multiple times is a function I promote in my game as opposed to many RPGs. The first is an introduction, usually saying hello and something of varying importance. The second level is a follow up sentence, if you come back to the person. the third is for a quest related statement (functioning as news of your deeds, locally). IN all 3 levels, there is usally a sentence that is conitional on you FAME counter, and your alignment. Example would be if you've completed a lot of quests, and you're playing like a noble hero, the townsfolk may know your name, and great you as a hero.

I like complex things, and I favor reusing npcs and locations to build a story. the entire world is pretty large however, but towns are spaced decently far apart.

ArcaneAlchemist

I am probably a big fan of more genres than I should be. I am sticking to a pretty pigeon-holed genre myself, but I will point out a few things from different ones that I really love.

Dragon Warrior 3: Day and night changes what happens in the towns. This was waaaay before Zelda OOT and I think it may have been the first standard rpg to do that. Only certain things could happen at night which made it pretty cool. So much for the fact that you can steal and sell the stuff from your hired help and make endless money....

Chrono Trigger: Super interactivity => There may not have always been a lot of branching with the dialogue at times, but it really made me laugh when you are in court and they show all of the crap you did that makes you look really guilty. Right then, I felt as though I was a shadow of my character avatar.

Earthbound: Just awesomely funny at every turn. Rather than in many games I see where you get annoyed at having to talk to some pretty meaningless NPCs, I was in pure suspense every time I talked to an NPC because I was waiting for the next funny moment. Also, their parody on the RPGs before them. Like how the cops were famous for their 'road blocks' and just the general poking fun at themselves through a rather simple gaming interface. (ps. back attacks were cool too!)

Zelda series - Especially in the older Zelda games, the story was pretty basic. At this point, they have used the same elements so much, that you would be totally pissed if he didn't save the princess, he didn't use bombs, boomerang, bow, ect... So, what they lacked in story, they originally made up for in just great raw gameplay. They were so innovative with the first title, that they could simply just build on the franchise eternally. So, I am a BIG story fan, but gameplay could be your trump card if your story is lacking. This would have to be most likely action RPGs though..

FF VI - Character Development - Other than that of having awesome music, it really brought to life each and every character that you play. This was the first time that the FF series decided to throw away 'class names' and start working on the characters themselves. Although they had class like qualities in their attributes,(treasure hunter == thief) they did not rob the personality there. Now, classes by no means diminish the value of the character(such as FF tactics, 7th Saga, FF4), but they can be used poorly if you don't have a back story for them. In this case, they are just a waste of space with some kick ass spells(Dragon Warrior 3, FF 1, so on).

So, I say take a magnifying glass, cherry pick the elements you like the best from each game, tailor them to the genre you have chosen, and maybe make something truly unique. ;)

Heretic86

Very good points!

So, here is a question to everyone.  What do you feel will MAKE or BREAK a Game for you?

Many of us use the same set of programs, so we are all going to be plagued by the same set of problems that come from using the same set of programs.  There are scripts out there that help to change the nature of the Default Game, but what exactly should those scripts be trying to accomplish?  Many out there would answer that a Script is supposed to enhance the Default Engine in some way.  But I think that is actually somewhat shortsighted.  The purpose of enhancing should be to make a game more enjoyable for whoever plays it.  As script development progresses, we lose sight of the ultimate goal and instead focus on the specifics of the Script itself.  We lose sight of the Forest through the Trees.

I believe there are two things that will drive players away from playing a game that we can have influence over.  I know there are more than two, but Im going after the stuff we have an opportunity to do something about.  If a player doesnt have the time to play a game because of real life stuff, well, theres no script that can be made that will do anything about that.  So let me go off on the stuff we can do something about.

#1 Boredom

I believe many players simply get "Bored" of playing games.  The game doesn't have enough to offer the player, or time is being wasted on things that could be better focused elsewhere.  One thing I am focusing on right now in regards to Scripting is allowing a player to walk away from a conversation fron an NPC during a conversation.  I believe it will help to prevent players from becoming bored while playing instead of forcing them through tons and tons of dialogue they may not want to read.  I also believe that players should be entertained by anything that happens in a game, not bored by it.  Battles should be interesting.  For example, take a very difficult enemy and give the player a creative way to easily defeat the enemy creates a sense of reward, which increases the entertainment value.

#2 Frustration

Players also become frustrated to the point where they will put a game down and never pick it up again.  Some of the contributing factors are confusion, and not knowing what they are supposed to do.  Easily discovering what they are supposed to do I feel increases the entertainment value.  Impossible Battles are also frustrating.  Challenging a player is good, but the player needs an opportunity to overcome the challenge.  Not enough of a challenge leads to Boredom (#1), and too much challenge leads to Frustration.  A good balance between the two provides Entertainment.  For example, a combat areas.  I feel Combat Areas should be Challenging at first, but should become too easy when the player has advanced enough as a way of telling the player "its time to move on".

---

But my point was about Scripts.  Scripters sometimes lose sight of the ultimate goal in that the Scripts they write should somehow make a game more Entertaining.  I know I am guilty of this as well.  And my latest focus as a scripter has been to keep myself focused on the Entertainment Value as opposed to just the specifics of what a script should do.  My stupid Caterpillar Demo is horrid in regards of Too Much Technical Dialogue which bores even Developers.  But its also a Technical Demo, and because the script is so complex, it needs to provide examples of the specific features of the script.  If it were not a Tech Demo, the Entertainment Value would be absolutely ZERO because its so dry and boring, even if it does show off what I think are game enhancing features.

I dont think this really applies to small scripts.  Making events Fade In and Fade Out dont really make games that much more fun.  But shorter scripts arent supposed to.  They just offer another level of creativity to someone building a game.  But big major scripts, such as Battle System rewrites should make the game more Entertaining.  I think that is why those like Blizzard wrote some of his monster scripts.  Its a change from the ordinary, and ultimately should make a game more fun.  I wrote a moster sized Caterpillar Script that turned into more than that, but focused on enhancing Movement of Events, mostly geared toward enhancing Cutscenes.  Cutscenes are where the meat of your story will be at.  And Cutscenes can also be like A-List movies, or shitty YouTube user films.  Cutscenes are only going to be as good as the tools used to create them.  So this Caterpillar Script I've been working on is an effort to enhance the toolset used to create Cutscenes.  For example, Events can turn toward the Player, but an Event didnt have the ability to Turn Toward Another Event.  Just being able to easily turn an event toward another event helps to bring the Story to life, which increases the Entertainment Value.  I feel that players will get bored if the Dialogue in a Major Cutscene is delivered without NPC movement.  Thus, the script is intended to add to the Entertainment Value.

Sure this sounds like Im pimping my own stuff again, but really, I dont care if you use it or not.  What I'd like is to see people try to make games that are 100% focused on being as Entertaining as possible.  But it extends to everything that you can possibly do as a Game Creator.  Entertaining Cutscenes, Interesting Enviornments, Rewarding Battles, etc.  So here I go again pimping my own stuff.  I made a Double Demo called "Once More, With Feeling" in order to show what I felt had some Entertainment Value.  The name came from the idea of doing "Takes" in movies.  Do it again, but do it with "More Feeling".  I felt that the Major Story Related Cutscenes should be intended to provoke a Strong Emotional Response in the Player.  I believe I succeeded in Spades.  It ended up getting wrapped with something that started off in a Mapping Contest and turned into a complete Dungeon where the player needs to climb a Mountain by navigating through a series of caves and walking around the outside of the Mountain.  I called it "Lightgeist Mountain", and wrapped that with my "Once More, With Feeling" demo, so it ended up becoming a Double Demo.  You can check them out here.

Enough about my stuff and back on topic.  Whatever you do, Sprite, Script, Map, etc, please do everything in your power to make your games as Entertaining as possible!  And to come full circle!  What do YOU feel, in general, a game Should or Shouldnt do in order to prevent the player from becoming Bored or Frustrated?
Current Scripts:
Heretic's Moving Platforms

Current Demos:
Collection of Art and 100% Compatible Scripts

(Script Demos are all still available in the Collection link above.  I lost some individual demos due to a server crash.)

ForeverZer0

Games are not about storyline, cutscenes, scripts, graphics, audio, or controls. It is about how well all these things combined form something entertaining. Games have only one sole objective: to entertain.
I am done scripting for RMXP. I will likely not offer support for even my own scripts anymore, but feel free to ask on the forum, there are plenty of other talented scripters that can help you.