Author Topic: Brainstorming about the Battle System  (Read 2976 times)

Offline MarkHest

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Brainstorming about the Battle System
« on: May 02, 2012, 07:42:57 AM »
I don't know if i have told anyone about this, but i actually HATE turn-based battles. Not because they are slow and that you only get to chose one action at a time and then wait untill the turn is finnished, but because you can hardly DO anything with it! Let's say i wanted to create an epic battle in this game (Which i want) and make it extremely hard in pure tactical means. However that idea is impossible because all you do in a turn-based battle is use an ability and then wait! Just how can you make an interesting battle out of only three outcomes in a battle, i'm talking about Attacking / Healing / Status-Effects.
I really really really really want to make boss fights unique in some way (Especially the dangerous ones connected to the plot) but i can't do anything else but to give them slighly higher attack power and maybe give them an attack or two that will lower an allys defence or something, or maybe make the boss summon a minion every now and then that you have to kill. It's just not interesting and epic enough! Actually, it sadens me greatly that i can't build up a tactical way to defeat a boss because i have so many ideas in store.

So i have been working with this game for over a year now and i have remade it three times already (Not completely, but dialogs and maps and stuff like that) and i am seriously thinking about changing the battle system for this game as well.

The only thing is that a big part of this game's humor is the actual battlers of enemies and alike and if i were to switch battle system over to Blizz-ABS or something then a REALLY big part of this game would just... die.
I just don't know what to do. I want to build up epic boss battles that will rely on your tactical skills, not just pressing attack and heal every now and then.

I just don't know what to do... i don't want to lose the battlers but i do want to change the games battle system.
However if i DO change the battle system, then the stuff that made this game alive and unique will just wither and die and we might just have another boring game that uses Blizz-ABS as its highlight with nothing interesting about it. I'm not saying Blizz-ABS games are boring, they're not. But i'm just saying that A LOT of the good things in this game will dissapear and it will change by such a large factor that i fear it will be ruined completely.

- Turn based Battle System has its charms, i agree with that. But it's also slow and extremely limited. You can't really build up an epic battle unless you add some really cool music to it, and that's it. There's nothing more you can do. Press attack, heal some HP, cure some status effects.
- Real Time Battle System however has its charms as well, but a lot of things that you can use in a turn based battle system will simply not work the same way anymore. For example, Normal Battle music. You can't have a Normal Battle theme in a Blizz-ABS game whenever you meet an enemy on the field. Also, you cannot show a full picture of how the creature look.

I don't know...
I really don't know...

I want to keep things that are used in a Turn Based battle system but i also want to take a few things used in Blizz-ABS.
I want tactical battles. I want Battle Music. I want to keep the battlers i am currently using.
Obviously something have to go out of these things.

Shall i go on using the Turn Based battle system?
Shall i scrap Turn Based and use Blizz-ABS?
Do you have an idea that can help me with my problem without completely discarding one of them. Is there a way to fuse them together? Can i make battles better?

My head is hurting so much right now. I might continue on this later but now i gotta go to the buss!
   

Offline winkio

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Re: Brainstorming about the Battle System
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2012, 08:15:58 AM »
There is plenty you can do with turn based, I don't think you have to switch to Blizz-ABS.  One option that would be pretty easy to do (no scripting, just some simple database work) would be to work element types into the core of combat.  A lot of people seem to overlook this feature in RMXP, but it is a classic RPG feature, and was used especially well in the original Pokemon games.

Second, in terms of making interesting battles and bosses, it's mostly just art and music.  Once you have that set, the actual battles are fairly straightforward, usually involving a pattern of aggressive attacks followed by a rest period with an exposed weak spot.  Depending on your scripts, you could use things like reflect, etc. to add extra gimmicks, but really the battle event editor has all the tools you need.

Offline MarkHest

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Re: Brainstorming about the Battle System
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2012, 08:52:52 AM »
I guess you're right, Elemental Powers the one of the most important feautures in The Missing Part after all.

It's just that, i was thinking about the Final Boss of this game, the arch-nemesis you've fought agains the whole game. I wanted to make him really strong because that's what he his, one tough bastard. Still, all i can do is ajust his attack power to be slightly higher than everone else and give him a lot of HP? Up to this point i've used elemental weaknesses, status effects and troop events to make battles hard but i still feel like it's not enough. What i could do is search for more scripts that adds a few more feautures in the Default Turn Based battle system.

But this still doens't fullfill my desire to make an enemy jump around and shoot things at you while you have to avoid it. It's just that i always seem to find a way to make a battle hard (tactic wise) and i want to exercise those ideas but lack the necessary knowledge/script/experience/program/resources to do it.

I wanted to make the Final Boss Battle epic and extremely hard in cheer skills, because that's what i want him to be... a bastard at fighting.
But i can't do that with a turn based battle system, i can't make an enemy as dangerous and awesome as i want them to be.

I will probably keep the Turn Based Battle system but i gotta find a way to make battles more interesting.

I'm not a bad at using events so using the troop events to lighten up a boss battle won't be much of a problem for me but if someone has an idea that would be cool to use in battle (with events) then share with me if you feel like you have the time.



Another idea of mine was to make a sequel to this game and in that game i would switch over to Blizz-ABS.
However, by then all of these dangerous enemies are gone and i won't be able to make the story as intense as it would be now.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 08:57:46 AM by MarkHest »
   

Offline KK20

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Re: Brainstorming about the Battle System
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2012, 08:47:27 AM »
There's a reason why I worked with RM2k3 first instead of RM2k: the time-turn based battle system (or whatever it's called). It definitely felt more satisfying in that you could see who gets the next attack and kind of plan your actions. Anything that affected speed or turn order made this system much more dynamic (for example, haste your entire party but at the cost of slowing the caster, an attack that briefly raised the actor's speed until the next attack, grant instant turn AKA Final Fantasy Quicken, etc.)

And the whole Action Timing thing Mario RPGs have. Kind of makes the turn-based less monotonous as you have to actually pay attention and do some form of skill rather than hitting the confirm button over and over to attack with the occassional heal potion/spell thrown in.

Granted those need scripts, but then again, I'm not saying you SHOULD ABSOLUTELY DO THIS. It's just things that I liked while still keeping the turn-based goodness I enjoy (because for some reason, I suck at real-time anything).



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Offline MarkHest

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Re: Brainstorming about the Battle System
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2012, 08:09:00 PM »
I actually tested a time-turn based battle system for this game once, however it messed up some of the cutscenes during battles and i didn't quiet know how to implement dialogues during turns. So i pretty much scrapped that idea since it pretty much messed up my game :P
   

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Re: Brainstorming about the Battle System
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2012, 11:21:12 PM »
Can you recall what script that was? I'd just like to see and play with it myself. I always have that urge to want to fix buggy scripts.  :nod:



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Offline MarkHest

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Re: Brainstorming about the Battle System
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2012, 11:44:58 PM »
That was a very long time ago, i searched around a lot on google but i couldn't find the script anywhere :wacko:
If i remember i just sort of 'bumped into' the script back in the days, i don't think i will do the same again :P
   

Offline GrimTrigger

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Re: Brainstorming about the Battle System
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2012, 04:51:08 PM »
Personally, I love the turn based RPG set up, but I can see where you are coming from.

I played around heavily with the elements/status effects of the game to add more strategy-based play. For example, I have all weapons carry either a "Normal" element or a "Pierce" element. I set certain enemies to be resistant to normal type weapons, so that the player must either bring armor piercing weapons or characters who only use anti-armor weapons to begin with. I make each weapon reduce AGI, so that heavy, anti-armor weapons slow a player down.

I also set monsters to have many attacks and conditions, so that enemies can try to work around their natural counters. An example of this is the Rock-Worm, which needs to be hit with Pierce type weapon. It has a skill to remove it's weakness to pierce, thus making all weapons (including magic) useless for a turn. It also has a mass skill to slow down all players, making the slower, anti armor characters difficult to deploy.

I've experimented with skills that leave you vulnerable for a turn, allowing me to introduce pure offensive or more defensive fighting styles.

One big part of the battle system I enjoy working with is the basis of my first thread where I asked about an AGGRO skill. Incorporating this with dodging abilities, it is possible to introduce MMORPG type tactics of tanking and DPS instead of hoping your weaker characters don't get targeted based on battle position.
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Offline MarkHest

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Re: Brainstorming about the Battle System
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2012, 02:15:03 AM »
That's a nice way of using armors and weapons. Up till this point i haven't really made a big deal out of weapons or armors and i've just thought of them as a "keep up with the strength of your enemies" sort of thing.
You have given me a few ideas to make battles harder and i've come to an understanding that the weapons/armors should be a choice of the player itself.

I'm thinking of giving every weapon its own state that says what kind of weapon it is, like Sword-Slash/Dagger-Stab/Polearm-Pierce (that goes for armors as well).
I am going to make elements the most important part of battles because The Missing Part has a pretty big background story involving elements, but throwing in a few extra weapon/armor states is not a bad idea either!

As for enemy attacks. I am going to try and make a lot of the attacks made by enemies evented. Bosses will use a few evented attacks but i might throw in a few of them on normal enemies as well. I just have to come up with a few ideas for them...


Thanks for giving me a few ideas, GrimTrigger! :D
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 02:17:00 AM by MarkHest »
   

Offline GrimTrigger

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Re: Brainstorming about the Battle System
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2012, 11:06:04 PM »
When I first started  working on my project, I had the problem of boring fights and redundant characters. I've since learned to increase the strategy necessary to win battles by making sure not every character is well rounded. I did that before, and it ended up as simply four strong people beating up a monster. I aim to specialize each character, so the player is constantly working to support certain characters in a fight to bring out their full potential.
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Offline Spoofus

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Re: Brainstorming about the Battle System
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2012, 07:52:05 PM »
hey if you want Mark I can send you what I have of my battle system.
it is pretty much the default DBS but easier to customize.


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Offline MarkHest

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Re: Brainstorming about the Battle System
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2012, 07:54:07 PM »
Well, i already have lots of scripts that customizes the Default Battle System, are you sure it won't bug a few things for me?
You know what, send it to me and i'll take a look at it. I'll tell you if i like it or not, and if it gives me any problems :)
   

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Re: Brainstorming about the Battle System
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2012, 07:57:03 PM »
okay,so you know there is like a line or 2 of code in it the stuff related to it that that make the stuff compatible with Blizz's RO job/skill script but those are easily removed obviously

I'll pm them to you, also make a new project to test them out so it will be easier.


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