Why Generation Y Yuppies are unhappy

Started by Blizzard, June 07, 2014, 02:10:45 pm

Previous topic - Next topic

ForeverZer0

Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 09:21:26 am
I guess all those unemployed people in Greece and Spain deserve their fates too.


This is not what the conversation was about, but in a way, yes, I agree the same argument applies to their situation as well. There's is a result of the very line of thinking that you are defending.

Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 09:21:26 am
They did this to themselves.  It wasnt banks.  It wasnt their economies.  It was ALL their fault that they dont have jobs.  All those freshly graduated kids dont have jobs because they arent trying hard enough.  I suppose the Ukranians did this to themselves too.  Bernie Madoffs clients lost their fortunes and it was their own fault.  So was Enron.  And the Indians decided to wipe themselves out.  Its my fault when my employer goes out of business cuz no ones buying the stuff were trying to sell.  Its peoples own fault over half of people here have sub-prime credit, not the jobs.  Its peoples own fault tht food inflation is at 22%.  Yeah, boohoo for us when county and state pensions continue to be cut, its our own fault.  Because were all Lazy.

Riiiiiight.


...more emotional text that doesn't pertain to the issue at hand...


I will speak for the myself and Blizzard only because we are the main two debating this particular issue on this side of it at the moment. You speak as if we are uneducated children who know nothing of the way of the world, and we are in for some great "rude awakening" someday that only the dew enlightened ones like yourself know of. I do believe (though not 100% sure), that  our arguments about simply working for what you want come from personal experience, not what we read on the internet or watch on TV, or read about in political journals. We are both successful at what we do, and it is not because we are one of the lucky ones who had it handed to them, and its not because we sat on our asses bitching about how hard it was to find a job on an interent forum, instead of pursuing it, and WORKING hard to achieve it.

I grew up poor, and got addicted to drugs as teenager, and that addiction followed me into my mid-twenties. I found myself at 23 without a job, an education, or a dime to my name. I didn't cry and bitch about it, and blame it on the terrible world around me. I checked myself into a rehab, and WORKED at staying clean, and improving my life. Soon after this point was when I joined this forum.  Let's fast-forward a few years. I am now about to graduate from school in two weeks, of which I am paying for 100% myself, without any help from a parents, a trust-fund, or charity. I have some prospective jobs already lined up, and not because I waited for them to come to me, or simply filled out the online application and cried when the call never came. I worked hard on MAKING MYSELF EMPLOYABLE by getting myself off drugs, putting myself through school, getting good grades, creating a great résumé, and walked into places being confident and telling them what I had to offer them. I have not always been a confident person, so even doing that took WORK and EFFORT to learn, it's a quite a bit more than just going to school, you have to have ambition and drive to achieve these things, not just expectation and a false sense of entitlement.

I am nobody special, and I did nothing that anybody else can't do, at least as far as those in the United States, I cannot speak for the rest of the world. If you are of the believe that simply going to school and filling out an application is the way to be successful, I have a quote for you:

Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 09:21:26 am
Keep living in your dream world.  Eventually it will grow in scope and size, turn into a full blown nightmare...Enjoy the dream while it lasts.


And that lack of ambition and drive is what causes this bitterness. You would be further ahead to put the energy wasted on arguing about it, and instead put it towards doing something about it. You can't control the politicians, the bankers, or the government, only yourself, so instead of blaming everything on them, do whatever you can for your own self, and don't let them hold you back. Imagine if we all had that attitude, we wouldn't even be in a debate right now on this thread.
I am done scripting for RMXP. I will likely not offer support for even my own scripts anymore, but feel free to ask on the forum, there are plenty of other talented scripters that can help you.

Spiralflux

June 12, 2014, 11:37:39 am #21 Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 11:57:32 am by Spiralflux
Awkward moment when I thought this was about Pokemon...

To be honest though, I feel like every generation gets overly generalized based on the dominant culture. Look at America and some of Europe. This is mostly where that problem is, but that's because that's the dominant culture that is being presented and analyzed. However, if we take a look at Russia and most of Asia, where another vast majority of the population sits, this is really not a general problem. Yes, it exists there, but the cultural fundamentals there doesn't really promote such behavior and entitlement and their way of life and thinking is much different from ours.
It's the whole "American Dream" being blown out of proportions and quite frankly I also blame our poor approach in education. Students are not taught the reality of life in school. Schools also promote the "I'm special" attitude by constantly giving second chances in failures, giving a distorted view of the outside world. Hell, I'm almost 20 and I still haven't been taught how to do my taxes in any educational institution. They just expect you to go and figure it out, and it's that figuring out part that makes our ambitions come crashing down.

Imagine Lucy was on the right track to her career and she actually did net a great job. She got her lawn, but the reality of actually facing the world is what gets her. Maintaining that lawn, so to speak. She has to file taxes, pay mortgage (how does she know how to choose the right one?), pay for utility bills, understand how to cook, clean and take care of hazards in her home properly. She has to understand social structures and how to create connections to augment her career, something which is also not taught in schools. She basically gets a vastly different world thrown in her face all at once and is basically told "You can do it kiddo, figure it out for yourself."

Oh and I noticed a 30% unemployment rate statistic.
Well, I was kind enough to do some research: http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000
That's the official United States Bureau of Labor Statistics. I see a 6.3% reporting. Even if it's lowered to "cover" up a certain portion of the population, going from a 6.3 to a 30 is a 23.7% increase, which in the context of the USA's approximately 300 Million population is 71,100,000 people. That is an extremely significant amount of the population to the point where you can literally see it with your own eyes. I'm sure pretty sure the number is not that high.

Blizzard

June 12, 2014, 12:01:46 pm #22 Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 12:12:52 pm by Blizzard
Quote from: ForeverZer0 on June 12, 2014, 10:51:57 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 09:21:26 am
I guess all those unemployed people in Greece and Spain deserve their fates too.


This is not what the conversation was about, but in a way, yes, I agree the same argument applies to their situation as well. There's is a result of the very line of thinking that you are defending.


Though we do have to take into account that this is a complex issue and the reason why these things happened are not black or white. There are multiple parties that were at fault, partially the people themselves. Basically everybody fucked up.

But I don't think it's that relevant to our discussion since we are discussing the happiness of the individual, not entire social systems and nations.

Quote from: ForeverZer0 on June 12, 2014, 10:51:57 am
I am nobody special, and I did nothing that anybody else can't do, at least as far as those in the United States, I cannot speak for the rest of the world.


That's very well said. Every single one of us has the potential for greatness. But few people realize and execute on that potential. It's not just limited to the US. Sure, the US may provide more opportunity and things can be a bit easier in the US than it is in poorer countries such as mine, but that is no reason not to work hard anyway. Maybe it will be a bit harder, maybe not. It doesn't matter, because if you have a goal and you want it badly enough, you'll get there eventually through dedication, discipline and work. And with work I mean in general. Something as simple as educating yourself can be considered work in this context.

@SpiralFlux: Yeah, you're making a few good points. Though I don't think second chances are the bad thing in the school system, it's how they are presented. They are presented as "second chance after you fail" rather than it being a learning experience and the next logical step to actually learn what you are supposed to learn.
Extra Credits did a few episodes on education recently. Even though they barely scratched the surface of things, they are making a few good points about this.

EDIT: To be honest, I really wish it wasn't like that. I wish that people weren't lazy and full of excuses. But at one point it simply became obvious to since I used to do the same thing. Not in a professional area, but in other areas of my life. And once you've seen what's going on, it's hard to go back and be ignorant of it. The worst thing is, not only do people not realize what they are doing, they don't want to realize it. They have it "good enough" not to change anything. Revolutions throughout the history have shown that man can and will rise up to change things, but only if they get so bad that there is no other way. In every other situation, people will just go with it. They will complain a bit, but they will go with it.
Check out Daygames and our games:

King of Booze 2      King of Booze: Never Ever
Drinking Game for Android      Never have I ever for Android
Drinking Game for iOS      Never have I ever for iOS


Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Spiralflux

An interesting video about the topic of education. I know it's a little off-topic, but I feel like it still has a huge relevance to the happiness of this generation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

Blizzard

I just finished watching. Yes, he's making a few very good points. It might take a while until we can restructure our educational system like this (if ever), but I'm sure that it would benefit the way how people are thinking and possibly change some fundamental things.
Check out Daygames and our games:

King of Booze 2      King of Booze: Never Ever
Drinking Game for Android      Never have I ever for Android
Drinking Game for iOS      Never have I ever for iOS


Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Heretic86

Call it strawman if you want.  I am being lazy and not bothering to validate my responses, but this thinking of poor people bring this all on themselves because they are lazy in every aspect of life and have all the opportunities everyone else has shows truly how misguided and uninformed you guys really are.
Current Scripts:
Heretic's Moving Platforms

Current Demos:
Collection of Art and 100% Compatible Scripts

(Script Demos are all still available in the Collection link above.  I lost some individual demos due to a server crash.)

Ryex

June 12, 2014, 10:16:04 pm #26 Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 10:18:13 pm by Ryex
Allow me to provide your proof (I investigated your claims and found a great deal of evidence for them.)

Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
The middle class jobs that come with a decent education, trade skills, or experience are gone.  There has been zero actual job growth in the US since 2008.


You are still not giving me any references. I can say that the gaming industry is worth $90 bil. and the movie industry $80 bil., but without any references these numbers are meaningless.


This is a fact.
Number of US jobs in 2008 http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm -> 135,185,230

Number of US jobs in 2013  http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm -> 132,588,810 -> 2.5 million fewer


Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
The result is a complete polarization of very very very high paying jobs (and only a few of them), and about the same number of minimum wage jobs.  The result of this is that everyone in the middle and at the bottom are now competing for those same jobs.  As a result, people with Masters Degrees (and an assload of debt) have no other choice than to apply at Wal Mart.  The number of bartenders and waitresses in this country with college degrees is staggering.  But the real problem is the debt that comes with it.  Working on a waitresses wages, one can not afford to make the payments on that education, and that debt does not go away even with bankruptcy.  Typical college educations cost at least as much as a house, but most of the time, much much more.  The number of student loans that are now in default is at all time record highs.  Higher interest rates and further penalties only further exaccerbate the situation.  The college educated people, Generation X, can no longer afford to live.  There is a new term thats been coined after them: The Educated Poor.


Not a lot of people in the Generation X have a college education. Even in Generation Y the percentage of college educated people is low. It's not like 70% has a college education. You are taking a minority of people and applying their standards to everybody else. This doesn't make sense in this context.


actually he's closer than you think.
Of employed US persons over 25 years of age. 58.27% have at least some college education, thats a majority.
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat07.htm



Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
The US should be well known by now for playing Mind Games, Art of War shit, appear strong when you are weak, etc.  When the US talks about Unemployment, they dont consider the 90 million people that are no longer considered part of the work force.  Most of these people did not retire.  They are simply not factored into the statistic and usually do not talk much about where that statistic comes from.  I'll agree completely that certain people need to be excluded from the work force, such as students, children, retired, independantly wealthy, etc.  But for those that want to work, they are not counted as Unemployed.


Again, where are you getting these numbers from?
But as far as I see it, yes, people who are above the retirement age should not be considered work force, regardless if they want to work or not. Working teenagers aren't work force either.


actually there is ample proof of this. I went to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics http://www.bls.gov and pulled a table of employment statistics sence 1973 http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat02.pdf and compiled some results

pay close attention to the percent change in the areas of unemployment and "Not in labor force". compare them with the percentage change in the total population.






















































Year     Population     Labor Force     % Population     Employed     % Population Employed    Unemployed      % Labor Force Unemployed         Not in labor force   % Population Not in Labor Force   % Population Unemployed
197369,292,00054,624,00078.8%52,34975.5%2,275,0004.2%14,667,00021.17%24.45%
2013118,555,00082,667,00069.7%76,353,00064.4%6,314,0007.6%35,889,00030.27%35.6%
% Change
+71.09%+51.34%-11.55%+45.8%-14.7%+177.54%+80.95%+144.69%+42.99%+45.60%



Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
For example, if a person here has a Realtors license, they do not count.  If they were fired from their previous job for ANY reason, they are not counted because they are not collecting Unemployment Benefits.


This is definitely wrong. But I still see no references.


http://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm

I can't find any reference to Realtors licenses but basically if your not actively applying to jobs in the last week your not considered part of the labor force. and if your doing unpaid work (ie chores) to moock off your parents your considered employed. Those two things can skew that statistics  a bit.

Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am

Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
None of my friends are employed.  Out of about 15 people that I used to hang out with at least semi-regularly, only two of them have regular jobs, one of them had to move out of state to get that job.  The other guy knew somebody that knew somebody, but I wasnt really close with them.  The rest of us have to take what we can get, minimum wage temp jobs that typically expire after a few weeks.  These people that I knew, usually brothers and sisters of friends and co-workers have all been knocked on their asses from this economic crash.  For the people I do see (and dont know), they have no idea how bad things are getting here, and they live here!  My kid "wont get a job".  Thats what they think.  Just graduated high school, not ready for college or military, but they call them lazy and really think that they wont put forth any effort into getting a job.  Getting a job here any more requires extrordinary effort and luck, with the lowest possible return there is, often less.  Just because one person has a job does not mean another job exists for everyone that is out of work, but is severely distorts their perspective on the situation.


I'm saddened to hear that, but take into account that you can't extrapolate your immediate environment to the entire country. e.g. I always wondered how it's possible that such clueless people are in our government when everybody I know knows that they suck. Then I realized that I was in the best university in the country. Of course people who aren't idiots go there. But that's the minority. The majority of the country doesn't understand that their favorite politicians have almost ruined the entire country.


personal story or not I can verify it true for a good number of people. I know, and was one of, many people (approx 20 acquaintances) who were applying for jobs left and right, filling out approximately 200 applications a week trying to get a job. course the people over 40 we claimed this two called bullshit, they didn't want to believe. most of us did find jobs eventually but it took months of endless applications.

Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
Not a rant, just loads of data.  I go through this daily with too many people to bother linking here, I come here because I dont want to think about how bad the future is, not because I want to be reminded of it everywhere I go on the web.


I understand. But please, if you don't want to back your arguments up and reference stuff, don't enter these kind of discussions. It just makes you seem like a bitter ass.


while his post was emotional most of his facts were provable with public resources, just sayin.
I no longer keep up with posts in the forum very well. If you have a question or comment, about my work, or in general I welcome PM's. if you make a post in one of my threads and I don't reply with in a day or two feel free to PM me and point it out to me.<br /><br />DropBox, the best free file syncing service there is.<br />

ForeverZer0

I was one of those poor people. I got out of it by not feeling sorry for myself, and I am not going to start feeling sorry now. I don't know where you come up with the idea I am misguided, I am proud of the achievements I have made through my efforts. Just stay by the phone, WalMart will call soon.
I am done scripting for RMXP. I will likely not offer support for even my own scripts anymore, but feel free to ask on the forum, there are plenty of other talented scripters that can help you.

PhoenixFire

To be honest, this another one of those topics where point of view will skew what people think here; F0 has a perfectly good point, and is a great example of those cases where hard work and belief in oneself can lead to something. For that, kudos! Heretic is completely correct too though, and apparently can back up his side with fact just as well as Blizz. All in all, the resulkt is the same, regardless of the blamed causes. Whether or not it is fair to generalize an entire generational group for the flaws of the majority, well, that's debatable. I consider myself part of the generation in question, yet at the same time, I do not fit into the description; I have a very similar story as F0, though less on the drugs side. In reality, this debate really just isn't my cup of tea, because it's an argument neither side can win; at least part of each sides view is based on opinion and personal experience, and as that varies from person to person, in a group of 10,000 people, you'll have 10,000 different answers...

[/rant]
Quote from: Subsonic_Noise on July 01, 2011, 02:42:19 amNext off, how to create a first person shooter using microsoft excel.

Quote from: Zeriab on September 09, 2011, 02:58:58 pm<Remember when computers had turbo buttons?

Spiralflux

There is never really a "win" in a debate. I think that's a poor notion in society to have. There is no right or wrong answer to an open ended situation and I feel it's wrong to say someone won a debate.
I believe a debate in its essence is one of the best ways to obtain new perspectives and knowledge. What Heretic is saying could be true or not, and what Blizz could be saying could be true or not. It doesn't matter. Hell, it doesn't even matter what the article is saying. What matters is what you take out of it and every person will differ in this.

Even if a debate gets emotional as in the case of Heretic, I think that's fine. Emotions help emphasize points and establish connections because we as human beings can sympathize with emotions and can understand them.
My original point of a poor education system still stands, and that is my contribution to the debate. Reading over what Blizz and Heretic have been saying has just simply made me re-analyze my education point and refine it. It's not right, nor is it wrong, just a different way of thinking to expand the boundaries of human knowledge.

So to further add to the debate, I believe that education is a pretty powerful thing. But I believe the proper type of education is what is needed. In this day and age, I strongly feel like educating yourself in academia can only get you so far because I do agree with Heretic that the economy is facing a very very poor reality right now and our kids will be the ones who suffer the most. What I believe is that Gen Y had very poorly directed education from their parents. It was a push into academia; something that would have helped their parents, but not necessarily themselves. Right now our world revolves around social structures and hierarchies more so than ever before. In this era of digitalism, almost everything you do is made public. So my firm belief is that educating people into how to build a credible and presentable persona, and how to properly fit into the social structures and hierarchies is what needs to be done. People need to be taught respect, responsibility, accountability and ambition. People need to be taught the importance of putting on a suit. The importance of first impressions and a hand shake. The importance of putting off your own desires for someone else's as an investment (Having an influential person owing you a favour is always a plus). All these basic social skills are vital in today's age and to be perfectly honest: not a lot of people know how to use them.

If we're going to do personal stories, I'll throw one in. I love studying people. I adore understanding patterns in humans and why we do what we do. I'm currently majoring in Social Psychology.
My grades? Not that great, honestly. My relationship with my parents? Mediocre. My friends? Best I could ask for.
I was pretty much alone growing up. My parents tried educating me and pushing me to excel in school, but I just hated school. Shoot me, but I HATED going to it and forcibly learning concepts. I liked learning everything on my own and picking up everything for myself how I saw fit. I had a rough few years in terms of relationships, schooling, finances and just regular teen angst. Lots of people thought I'd amount to nothing because quite frankly I was a lazy piece of shit who had no fancy grades to show. I just sat and gamed all day. But, honestly, I believed in my skill set and I believed in my ability to do something with my life, despite all the negativity and all the harsh words other people told me. I took every lesson from my failures to heart, and even if I did repeat my mistakes, it did affect my personality. Hell, I'll even bring one close to home in CP. I was picked up my Blizzard to map for Lexima Legends THREE times. I did a few maps for him and then I let him down all three times simply because I couldn't find the time to do his requests anymore. You can guess how disappointed he was. I took that harshly, and now I've gotten a lot better at managing what I can and can't do.
So, all in all, I'm almost 20 and currently a Manager at a large retail chain in my country. I have no post secondary diploma or fancy grades to show, I simply had the correct social skills to climb the ladder and the ability to push through and meet a challenge.

In conclusion, that's why I feel having strong social abilities is key now. So I stand firm on the fact that today's generation Y is so miserable is due to the issue of not being educated properly about the world they're about to enter. This is most likely due to a gap between their parent's understanding of how they grew up and the world they faced to the world that their child will be facing.

Blizzard

June 13, 2014, 03:05:57 am #30 Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 03:12:04 am by Blizzard
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 10:09:21 pm
I am being lazy and not bothering to validate my responses,


Then don't respond at all. If you can't have a normal discussion, stop responding.

Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 10:09:21 pm
but this thinking of poor people bring this all on themselves because they are lazy in every aspect of life and have all the opportunities everyone else has shows truly how misguided and uninformed you guys really are.


Straw man argument again. You simply take what everybody here said out of context, extrapolate it to ridiculous proportions and apply it to everything. "Oh, if people are lazy, then it must mean that all the bad things in life happen because people are lazy and that they are lazy in every aspect of life."




Ok, here is a simple question. What did you do for the past 2 weeks? Every day, what did you do? How much time did you spend on doing certain things? I'm not expecting you to show me an entire list of exactly at what time you did what (heck, I can't remember what I had for lunch 2 days ago), but in general what were you doing for the past 2 weeks and how much time did you spend on doing them? Just try to make a list and see how much time you spend being productive in any way.

Here's an example roughly of what I did for the past 2 weeks.

Spoiler: ShowHide
2 weeks means 5 working days plus 2 days of weekend, so 10 working days and 4 days of weekend altogether. I probably sleep less than 8 hours a day on average, but for the sake of simplicity let's say I do sleep 8 hours. That's 224 waking hours left to get shit done.

I work 8 hours a day and lose about an hour for going to work and home afterwards. That's 9 x 10 = 90 which leaves me with 134 waking hours of free time. When I go out during working days, I try to sleep 2-3 during the day after work so I can go out at night and not be totally fucked up the next day. Regardless, this usually reduces my free time on that day to 1 hour since I get home, do a few chores, then sleep until around 8 PM, then meditate, shower, eat, my buddies come over at around 10 PM and we usually leave my place at midnight. For the sake of simplicity let's say that's 7 more waking hours (since I usually don't make up for lost sleep except maybe a bit of resting the day after when I get home from work). I did this 4 times over the past 2 weeks which means I'm down another 28 hours. That's 106 hours left. We went out on a Saturday so I can safely assume that I wasted another 6 hours on that, too. 100 hours left.

In these 100 hours I lost time on eating, hygiene and misc small things, too. Let's say I lose 2 hours a day on this stuff, this is another 28 hours. 72 hours left. Of these 72 hours I spent at least 30 hours programming on my own projects at home (we're close to releasing a new game, woohoo!). I started up meditation again exactly 2 weeks ago so that means almost another 5 hours. Of these remaining 37 hours I probably did nothing really productive. But I don't blame myself. When I get home from work, rest up a bit, maybe eat something, then work a few more hours on my own projects and then relax a bit by surfing the Internet or watching a movie or something (usually I work just straight up until I go to sleep, but on other days not at all).

These are rough estimates. I obviously counted some hygiene, eating and meditation twice since I already accounted for it in those 5 times I went out. 2 weeks ago on Saturday when we went out I was drinking that time so I was messed up the entire day afterwards which means 16 hours of doing nothing. These 16 hours are also lost around somewhere in these estimates.

Remember, these are all rough estimates since I'm not keeping a journal (my friend Teo says I totally should ._.).


What did you do for the past 2 weeks? I think that I realistically wasted only 40-50 hours on doing absolutely nothing useful. (Keep in mind that going out for me is being productive, because I hone my social skills, meet new people and created connections. All that while having fun.) And I still consider myself somewhat lazy. Though I probably shouldn't be so hard on myself since the body needs to rest a bit even during waking hours.

Try keeping a journal for 2 weeks and see how much time every day you do something productive. Compare it to mine. See for yourself how productive you are. I've had 30 hours of programming + 35 hours of socializing and networking + 80 hours at work.

Quote from: Ryex on June 12, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
Allow me to provide your proof (I investigated your claims and found a great deal of evidence for them.)

Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
The middle class jobs that come with a decent education, trade skills, or experience are gone.  There has been zero actual job growth in the US since 2008.


You are still not giving me any references. I can say that the gaming industry is worth $90 bil. and the movie industry $80 bil., but without any references these numbers are meaningless.


This is a fact.
Number of US jobs in 2008 http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm -> 135,185,230

Number of US jobs in 2013  http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm -> 132,588,810 -> 2.5 million fewer


Thank you, this is what I was asking for. It's definitely interesting information. The overall number of jobs decreased by only 2%. By the degree people are complaining, I expected something in the range of 10%-20%, lol!

Quote from: Ryex on June 12, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
The result is a complete polarization of very very very high paying jobs (and only a few of them), and about the same number of minimum wage jobs.  The result of this is that everyone in the middle and at the bottom are now competing for those same jobs.  As a result, people with Masters Degrees (and an assload of debt) have no other choice than to apply at Wal Mart.  The number of bartenders and waitresses in this country with college degrees is staggering.  But the real problem is the debt that comes with it.  Working on a waitresses wages, one can not afford to make the payments on that education, and that debt does not go away even with bankruptcy.  Typical college educations cost at least as much as a house, but most of the time, much much more.  The number of student loans that are now in default is at all time record highs.  Higher interest rates and further penalties only further exaccerbate the situation.  The college educated people, Generation X, can no longer afford to live.  There is a new term thats been coined after them: The Educated Poor.


Not a lot of people in the Generation X have a college education. Even in Generation Y the percentage of college educated people is low. It's not like 70% has a college education. You are taking a minority of people and applying their standards to everybody else. This doesn't make sense in this context.


actually he's closer than you think.
Of employed US persons over 25 years of age. 58.27% have at least some college education, thats a majority.
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat07.htm


Wow, that's really something. I had no idea. The number of college educated people in my country is below 10%, I didn't think it would be higher than 20%, maybe 30% in other countries.

Quote from: Ryex on June 12, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
The US should be well known by now for playing Mind Games, Art of War shit, appear strong when you are weak, etc.  When the US talks about Unemployment, they dont consider the 90 million people that are no longer considered part of the work force.  Most of these people did not retire.  They are simply not factored into the statistic and usually do not talk much about where that statistic comes from.  I'll agree completely that certain people need to be excluded from the work force, such as students, children, retired, independantly wealthy, etc.  But for those that want to work, they are not counted as Unemployed.


Again, where are you getting these numbers from?
But as far as I see it, yes, people who are above the retirement age should not be considered work force, regardless if they want to work or not. Working teenagers aren't work force either.


actually there is ample proof of this. I went to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics http://www.bls.gov and pulled a table of employment statistics sence 1973 http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat02.pdf and compiled some results

pay close attention to the percent change in the areas of unemployment and "Not in labor force". compare them with the percentage change in the total population.






















































Year     Population     Labor Force     % Population     Employed     % Population Employed    Unemployed      % Labor Force Unemployed         Not in labor force   % Population Not in Labor Force   % Population Unemployed
197369,292,00054,624,00078.8%52,34975.5%2,275,0004.2%14,667,00021.17%24.45%
2013118,555,00082,667,00069.7%76,353,00064.4%6,314,0007.6%35,889,00030.27%35.6%
% Change
+71.09%+51.34%-11.55%+45.8%-14.7%+177.54%+80.95%+144.69%+42.99%+45.60%



Thank you again. These are some way more realistic numbers. And yeah, the percentage of unemployed labor force is 7.6%, not 30%. You just gotta love how people will always compare the unemployed labor force of 1973 (4.2%) to the unemployed population in 2013 (35.6%) and complain how much worse off we are now than 40 years ago.

Quote from: Ryex on June 12, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
For example, if a person here has a Realtors license, they do not count.  If they were fired from their previous job for ANY reason, they are not counted because they are not collecting Unemployment Benefits.


This is definitely wrong. But I still see no references.


http://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm

I can't find any reference to Realtors licenses but basically if your not actively applying to jobs in the last week your not considered part of the labor force. and if your doing unpaid work (ie chores) to moock off your parents your considered employed. Those two things can skew that statistics  a bit.


Ah, I see. Well, maybe a week is really little, but technically work force IS the amount of people who work or want to work. I think it would be kinda silly that people who don't even want to work should be considered part of the work force. It's not called work capable. But at this point I can only talk out of my ass.

Quote from: Ryex on June 12, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
None of my friends are employed.  Out of about 15 people that I used to hang out with at least semi-regularly, only two of them have regular jobs, one of them had to move out of state to get that job.  The other guy knew somebody that knew somebody, but I wasnt really close with them.  The rest of us have to take what we can get, minimum wage temp jobs that typically expire after a few weeks.  These people that I knew, usually brothers and sisters of friends and co-workers have all been knocked on their asses from this economic crash.  For the people I do see (and dont know), they have no idea how bad things are getting here, and they live here!  My kid "wont get a job".  Thats what they think.  Just graduated high school, not ready for college or military, but they call them lazy and really think that they wont put forth any effort into getting a job.  Getting a job here any more requires extrordinary effort and luck, with the lowest possible return there is, often less.  Just because one person has a job does not mean another job exists for everyone that is out of work, but is severely distorts their perspective on the situation.


I'm saddened to hear that, but take into account that you can't extrapolate your immediate environment to the entire country. e.g. I always wondered how it's possible that such clueless people are in our government when everybody I know knows that they suck. Then I realized that I was in the best university in the country. Of course people who aren't idiots go there. But that's the minority. The majority of the country doesn't understand that their favorite politicians have almost ruined the entire country.


personal story or not I can verify it true for a good number of people. I know, and was one of, many people (approx 20 acquaintances) who were applying for jobs left and right, filling out approximately 200 applications a week trying to get a job. course the people over 40 we claimed this two called bullshit, they didn't want to believe. most of us did find jobs eventually but it took months of endless applications.


As I said in an earlier post, it took my mom 3 months of endless applications and searching as well to find another job. But she found one, because she wasn't sitting around being lazy and complaining, but took action. Look at things like this. If most people won't bother looking for a job so hard, it makes it easier for those who do, lol!

Quote from: Ryex on June 12, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
Not a rant, just loads of data.  I go through this daily with too many people to bother linking here, I come here because I dont want to think about how bad the future is, not because I want to be reminded of it everywhere I go on the web.


I understand. But please, if you don't want to back your arguments up and reference stuff, don't enter these kind of discussions. It just makes you seem like a bitter ass.


while his post was emotional most of his facts were provable with public resources, just sayin.


I'm not arguing the facts as much as the fact that he didn't provide any references, lol! Thanks again for digging out this data.




I want to add here that the number of employed people dropped by 2% (as Ryex showed before). I don't know by how many percent the population increased over the last 5 years, but to be honest I really thought the effective numbers of increase in unemployment went up insanely high by the amount people that keep complaining. Everybody just keeps complaining. ._.

Quote from: Spiralflux on June 12, 2014, 11:53:19 pm
Even if a debate gets emotional as in the case of Heretic, I think that's fine. Emotions help emphasize points and establish connections because we as human beings can sympathize with emotions and can understand them.


I disagree. Emotions like this are caused by conflict of realities. Heretic has his own reality and can't accept the fact that you CAN be successful with hard work. It messes with his belief system and turns things around in a way that make him seem like lazy/a pussy/whatever for not trying hard enough. The process of the subconscious goes something like "Does that mean that I'm just being a little bitch this time?! Noooooo! That can't be true! I must defend my reality at all costs! I'm not lazy! I'm not a little complaining bitch! I have a right to be angry, because the world is against me, because I am completely powerless about the bad things that happen to me!" and then creates an emotional response, because the ego (in the context of one's self-image) is feeling threatened.

Quote from: Spiralflux on June 12, 2014, 11:53:19 pm
So to further add to the debate, I believe that education is a pretty powerful thing. But I believe the proper type of education is what is needed. In this day and age, I strongly feel like educating yourself in academia can only get you so far because I do agree with Heretic that the economy is facing a very very poor reality right now and our kids will be the ones who suffer the most. What I believe is that Gen Y had very poorly directed education from their parents. It was a push into academia; something that would have helped their parents, but not necessarily themselves. Right now our world revolves around social structures and hierarchies more so than ever before. In this era of digitalism, almost everything you do is made public. So my firm belief is that educating people into how to build a credible and presentable persona, and how to properly fit into the social structures and hierarchies is what needs to be done. People need to be taught respect, responsibility, accountability and ambition. People need to be taught the importance of putting on a suit. The importance of first impressions and a hand shake.


These are definitely some good concepts, but the problem of execution is still there. Sadly changing the entire educational system will take time. ._.

Quote from: Spiralflux on June 12, 2014, 11:53:19 pm
The importance of putting off your own desires for someone else's as an investment.


This is one of the best things I've heard somebody say about this particular topic. People are always justify them being "nice" by trying to put off their own desires for others, not realizing that they are causing damage to themselves and the other person.

Quote from: Spiralflux on June 12, 2014, 11:53:19 pm
Social Psychology.


I love that field, lol!

Quote from: Spiralflux on June 12, 2014, 11:53:19 pm
In conclusion, that's why I feel having strong social abilities is key now. So I stand firm on the fact that today's generation Y is so miserable is due to the issue of not being educated properly about the world they're about to enter. This is most likely due to a gap between their parent's understanding of how they grew up and the world they faced to the world that their child will be facing.


This is definitely a good point. I'm not arguing that the current educational system isn't part of the cause of the situation today. But for an individual the past is the past. The important thing isn't what brought them here, but what they are going to do next. If the educational system caused damage, each individual should invest some time into fixing these things (at least as many as possible) and move on. Instead, everybody just keeps complaining "Yeah, the world messed me up, it's not my fault, I can't do anything about it." It doesn't matter who's fault it is. If the situation is messed up, fix it. But if you don't go about fixing it, you're being lazy and that thing IS your fault.
Check out Daygames and our games:

King of Booze 2      King of Booze: Never Ever
Drinking Game for Android      Never have I ever for Android
Drinking Game for iOS      Never have I ever for iOS


Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Ryex

Of note is that the numbers in the table I put is is JUST men, sorry I didn't say that earlier.

The numbers tell a slightly different story. the percent of the female population that was employed was at 44.7% and increased to about 57.5% by 1990 and has fluctuated around that ever since. meanwhile the unemployment % started at 6.1, dropped to 4 by 2000 and then quickly climbed back to 7.1

The really interesting thing about that data is that the decline since 1973 (a notable date not only because it's the last date in the BLS database but because it's the start of Generation Y)

the % of the population IN the workforce has dropped close to 1% every year at the current rate only 60% of the entire population (women and men) will be employed in 2053

40% of our population not contributing in any way...

please note that the employment department statistics do not count institutionalised or persons below the age of 16. so that 40% of the population that COULD work, not working.
I no longer keep up with posts in the forum very well. If you have a question or comment, about my work, or in general I welcome PM's. if you make a post in one of my threads and I don't reply with in a day or two feel free to PM me and point it out to me.<br /><br />DropBox, the best free file syncing service there is.<br />

Blizzard

This doesn't have to be necessarily a bad thing. In 2053 our entire society could look very different so a big work force might not be required.
Check out Daygames and our games:

King of Booze 2      King of Booze: Never Ever
Drinking Game for Android      Never have I ever for Android
Drinking Game for iOS      Never have I ever for iOS


Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.