### Author Topic: Relativity  (Read 17781 times)

#### Aqua

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##### Re: Relativity
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2009, 02:20:19 AM »
Ah we talked briefly about that in Chemistry last year.

The way that we'd observe an electron's path is by using an election to locate the election we want by having them collide to see where they are... Of course... this would only change the path of the elections, therefore messing up the observation.

#### Diokatsu

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##### Re: Relativity
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2009, 03:14:38 AM »
Ah we talked briefly about that in Chemistry last year.

The way that we'd observe an electron's path is by using an election to locate the election we want by having them collide to see where they are... Of course... this would only change the path of the elections, therefore messing up the observation.
Irony. The only way to observe the electron's path is to change it. Paradoxical as well.

#### winkio

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##### Re: Relativity
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2009, 07:51:27 AM »
So I just read this Feynman lecture about curved space.  Crazy cool stuff.  A straight line in 3d space is actually a parabola.  Gravity distorts time and all.  Anybody else know enough about this to discuss?

#### Blizzard

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##### Re: Relativity
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2009, 11:00:53 AM »
I do. I just love the concept of displaying an X dimensional space with and X - Y dimensional space where X > Y and Y > 0 and then folding that X dimensional space via the X+1'th dimension to bring two points in the X dimensional space at the same location in the X+1'th dimensiona space. It makes perfect sense and it applicable to any number of dimensions.
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#### winkio

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##### Re: Relativity
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2009, 07:02:10 PM »
no, not that kind of curve.  The kind of curve where a sphere is a curved 2D surface which has different geometric properties that that of a plane.  For example, on a sphere, you can make a triangle with 3 90 degree angles.  That kind of curved space.

#### Blizzard

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##### Re: Relativity
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2009, 09:28:59 PM »
But isn't that done over the overlying dimension?
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#### winkio

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##### Re: Relativity
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2009, 06:41:13 AM »
Yes, but what is the 4th dimension of space?  It's impossible to imagine.

Also there is no folding, just curves.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 07:00:05 AM by winkio »

#### Blizzard

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##### Re: Relativity
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2009, 12:57:16 PM »
The 4th dimension isn't space, it's time.

Alight, no folding. xD
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#### fugibo

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##### Re: Relativity
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2009, 03:54:38 PM »
The 4th dimension isn't space, it's time.

++

#### winkio

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##### Re: Relativity
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2009, 06:18:14 PM »
No, there is a fourth dimension of space.  I'm serious.  meters^4.  That's what I'm talking about.  And that is what space is curved in.  The curve does affect time though.

#### Blizzard

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##### Re: Relativity
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2009, 06:32:57 PM »
But dimensions are independent on representation. It's just a matter of perspective. We perceive the 4th dimension as time and that's that. We can just say it's another space dimension and just work with that, it doesn't matter.

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#### winkio

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##### Re: Relativity
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2009, 06:38:54 PM »
No, this is not a perspective, this is Einstein's Theory of Gravitation, which obviously, none of us have heard about until I just read this lecture on wednsday.  There's no way I'm going to be able to explain it, because you need some background in relativity, and because I don't fully understand it.

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##### Re: Relativity
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2009, 04:48:06 AM »
You're misunderstanding Blizz. The fourth dimension IS time. Time was previously thought of something independent of space. (events occurred in space at a specific time) However, Einstein said that rather than our current understanding of space as three dimensional (x,y,z,), it was in fact four dimensional (x,y,z,t) using time as the fourth dimension. Now if I understood what I read in his works correctly, the first three dimensions (x,y,z) are curving into the fourth dimension (t, or time). I've read Einstein's actual work, and me and my tutor talked about it for hours, so yes, Blizz and I are both correct in saying time is the fourth dimension. Einstein said so multiple times, and if you read his mathematical equations, it uses time as the fourth dimension.

#### winkio

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##### Re: Relativity
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2009, 07:40:44 AM »
I'm not talking about THE fourth dimension.  That is the list of observable dimensions.  I'm talking about space's 4th dimension, which is not time.  None of Einstein's relativity equations use time as the 4th dimension of space.  You can not multiply two areas and get seconds.

Time is related to space, not directly by being the fourth dimension of space, but by being its own dimension dependent on space.  Einsteins Relativity equations define this relation.  The curve of 3D space influences time causing time to curve, but space does not curve into time, it curves with it.

Space-time, combining the two related factors, is expressed in terms of x, y, z, and t, but space-time still curves into the next dimension.

#### Blizzard

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##### Re: Relativity
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2009, 11:46:02 AM »
Seconds and meters are just measurement units we use. You can say meters * meters * meters * meters or meters * meters * meters * seconds.

Of course space curves into time. If you take freeze the time flow and use 3 vertexes to make a triangle where you put one vertex in one frame of time while the other vertexes are in another frame of time, you have a hyper triangle curved through a fourth dimension (time). You can do absolutely the same thing if you say the 4th dimension is space and displace the vertex using it, you get curved the edges and a hyper triangle as well. I'm generalizing the concept of dimension here. It doesn't matter how you call dimension a 4th dimension.
I'm not saying that space and time are the same, I'm saying that using space and time as dimensions is the same.
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#### winkio

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##### Re: Relativity
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2009, 05:09:34 PM »
Yes Blizz, you can define space-time as a four dimensional entity, but that does nothing to explain the curving that we observe.  Whether you isolate space or look at space-time, both things still curve into a higher dimension, which is neither space nor time.

#### Blizzard

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##### Re: Relativity
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2009, 06:55:25 PM »
Alright, now we're on the same wavelength.
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##### Re: Relativity
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2009, 09:35:22 PM »
OH, so that's what you mean. I've heard of that, but it was always rather confusing to me. Have we yet discovered what this extra dimension is? I know that large objects bend space time (thus creating gravity), but I've heard only a small amount of this extra dimension (so little that I'd forgotten about it till I heard Winkio's explanation as to what he was talking about). Anyone have more information about it? (at this second I feel too lazy to google "relativity" or "fourth dimension" until I find one that speaks on this subject)

#### winkio

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##### Re: Relativity
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2009, 01:19:32 AM »
Yes, so the lecture I read was from the Feynman lectures on Physics, Vol II Chapter 42.  I couldn't find it on google on a preliminary search, so I'm going to scan it and upload it soon.  It's quite an interesting read.

#### Blizzard

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##### Re: Relativity
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2009, 02:00:26 AM »
I might take a look at it. Me and my roommate were discussing higher dimensions recently. Stuff like the 5th dimension being alternate timelines, the 6th being alternate parallel universes etc.
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