We all agree on things too much

Started by Vell, July 26, 2011, 12:20:41 am

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Vell

July 26, 2011, 12:20:41 am Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 12:21:52 am by UltaFlame
For a forum titled "Intelligent Debate" there is a lack of any actual debate happening. A topic is opened, stating a topic to discuss. Someone comes along and states a well-thought post a few paragraphs long. Everyone, in some fashion, be it in a long restating of the same point or simply by stating so, agrees with it, including the thread maker. And with that said, nobody even bothers to play Devil's Advocate. In addition, with a lack of devil's advocate, and since everyone is agreeing, no actual debate is occuring.

It's less an Intelligent Debate forum and more an Intelligent Agreement forum. I realise you may be thinking something along the lines of "if nobody disagrees, it must be because the view is correct." In any discussion intended to be a debate, this is not so. There's always another side of things. For instance, there could be another way of looking at the issue which shines doubt upon the currently held popular view. Perhaps there's even evidence disproving the theory. So what I'm saying is we're opening discussions, seeing one thought-out post and nodding along with it - and then not considering any opposing view.

One idea I had as to why there's no debate here is that we're not treating this forum as a debate forum. Perhaps when we make a post here we're instead intending to begin a topic for people to simply chat about it. The intent behind it in this case is not to discourage opposing views, but instead to not look for them. There's a view the first poster holds, and everyone else in the thread is supposed to discuss it, ideally in a civil manner. However, in this case a debate isn't called for. A debate is in itself a discussion, yes, but a discussion is not necessarily a debate. And while a debate can be brought out of a discussion, if a thread is posted in a debate forum, it should be treated as a debate from the beginning.

If you do not believe your thread is best formed as a debate with two or more sides trying to get their points out there, then it should not be posted in a debate forum. Allow me to go into what a debate actually is. A debate is when one person opens up a topic, states their view, a few opening points with the hope that his opponent has the decency to pay attention and consider. From that point a few things can happen however. Most typically, another person corroborates the opening view, showing support for it. Then, an opposing view comes along, having considered the first side, and countering any immediate flaws in the opening argument and putting forth their own.

But then, what is the point of a debate? It sounds an awful lot like a flame war waiting to happen. Sadly, a lot of flame wars begin as debates. However, it spirals out of control because people lose sight of a debate's goal. A debate isn't about which side is right or wrong. People have their opinions, which rarely are swayed. Instead, debates are about listening to the opposing side and trying to come out of the discussion with a widened world view. As well, it's about pitting your wit against another's. In a case where the result must ultimately end up with a decision in some way, the point of a debate is shifted.

Instead of being a personal thing for you to stretch your mind, it becomes a situation where two sides try to understand their opposition. Here is where a key confusion oft happens. When one considers their opponent's side, it must carefully be thought about. To properly see a debate through one must see the opponent's side as being valid enough to warrant working with. Ultimately, after every point is made as many times as it takes for each side to fully understand their opponent's viewpoint, a compromise is made. Unless enough convincing happened to make taking one decision completely over the other, in which case that's the final result.

EDIT: I put forth that we either agree to initiate topics with the intent of debating or that we establish a forum for miscellaneous discussions which are meant to be considered in a serious manner akin to a debate but without the necessity of a disagreement.

winkio

I'm just saying that I personally have noticed a lot of aggression on this section.  It seems that when people encounter opposition, instead of having a nice debate, they get defensive and emotional, take it personally, etc.  I just don't think I am able to calmly have what I define as a debate with most people around here.

Vell

These people made one of the mistakes I detailed here; they failed to consider their opposition valid and attempted to understand their points only enough to make a counter-point, without ever seeing it as a possibly correct view.

ForeverZer0

I personally usually only debate topics that I am actually interested in, strongly opinionated about, and well-informed of.  Rarely do I see topics that match this criteria, so rarely do I post in them.  I do understand what you are saying, it would be interesting to take the opposition against the majority consensus, whether I agree with it or not, just to expand our views.  Its just a lot harder to be passionate about it...
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Blizzard

I disagree with you, Ulta. While I understand the definition of a debate, I refuse to disregard my own opinion and post something I don't believe in. While some things may have a counter side and I am aware of that counter side, I do not believe in it and hence I will not betray my own belief and defend a point of view I simply don't believe in (e.g. our recent discussion about the gaming industry where I could say that the high profits lets developers keep their jobs, I am certain that they would still have their jobs if the profit margin was significantly lower and that it's basically another no-risk way for the richer to get even richer). It is simply that most people that are currently visiting CP have a similar view of the world or are forming a similar view of the world. I don't think people should play the devil's advocate just for the sake of playing the devil's advocate. Either that or more controversial topics should be posted (e.g. a topic about abortions) if you really would to stir a debate. Of course there is still the case where people have their opinion and respect the opinion of others so a debate dies off after just 2-3 pages. We have seen such debates happening often as well. So an actual debate does not mean that a topic will live for long. I remember getting convinced several times in a debates as well as me convincing other people of my view very quickly.

So if you want to post more controversial topics (which I am not against as long as it's not about religion or politics) and stir up more actual debates, feel free to do so. But be aware that there might be consequences that you (or other people for that matter) might not be able to handle. I still wholeheartedly disagree on being the devil's advocate for something that I simply don't believe in. If my opinion is not that strong, I can consider the other side and bring out a few points, but unless somebody takes it further and continues from there, I am not going to support or consider an opposed opinion (mostly because of the lack of backing up for that opposed opinion).
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Power Hungry Midget

I've kind of tried to avoid the Intelligent Debate area, ever since a younger, less wise, less mature self posted a topic about "Animal Rights" and things started off interesting, but eventually degenerated into stereotypes, redundant arguments, jokes and eventually flaming. Some people got seriously offended and reading back over my posts, I'm actually a little embarrassed at some of the things I said. I really would love for there to be a topic where two sides could debate openly about something and actually have a genuine disagreement without things getting personal. There are quite a few like minded people who agree on certain things and other topics were there was general disagreement such as the topic on the assassination of Osama Bin Laden. I made a point about it and then I was being accused of hating America and Tuggernuts was complaining that everyone thought America was shit country with a bad president. When really I was addressing the problem from the point of view of someone concerned with how America is viewed and how it reflects on Western society as a whole. Any topics which would really get debate going normally end up spreading to the shout-box and sometimes friendships are destroyed. If there's something that people could respectfully disagree that'd be great, but it seems all the best topics end up locked.
So Ulta, your point really only applies to a few recent topic, e.g. the topic about breaking the law

The plot thickens......

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Vell

July 26, 2011, 05:35:53 pm #6 Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 05:37:54 pm by UltaFlame
To address your point, Midget.

The issue you bring up is one that reflects more on the participants than the subject. No topic is inherently bad. There are some topics more likely to issue inflammatory remarks, for example anything relating to religion or politics, which people oft support to an irrational level of devotion. However, given the nature of those two subjects, such faith in one's own belief is not only expected but required. Therefore, religion and politics are infrequently suitable topics for a debate, since one cannot expect another to be ready to accept opposing viewpoints in regards to those areas.

However, beyond that your point falls short. To start off, both of your examples which were intended to lend weight to your argument involve politics. As covered a number of times within this thread, politics are an unwise choice for debate. People believe too fervently in their political views. Your point also ignores one of my earlier statements, wherein I explained that there were common mistakes made in debates; it seems like the people within those made several of them. Therefore, your ultimate argument "my point only applies to a few topics" is founded upon an unstable platform.

Now, Blizzard.

You are correct. One should not be expected to support a viewpoint they disagree with. However, I think you misinterpreted something. My main point was that nobody actually debates in the debate forum, which seems a waste. The suggestion of people playing Devil's Advocate was just one way to stimulate a potential debate. Note that, as clarified in my later paragraphs denoting how a successful debate is waged, a debate can simply be for the sake of debate, with the intent to come out with a wiser image of the world, or simply to stretch your mind. In this case, and truly in any case, getting too heated or believing too strongly in your case is actually detrimental.

After all, you want to keep an open mind. If you want this forum to actually revolve around debates, rather than agreeing discussion (or spiraling flamewars), establishing and pinning the proper flow of a debate and encouraging people to be open minded rather than argumentative would be a step in the right direction. A debate isn't an argument, nor is it a war, and that should be clearly understood before a debate is engaged.

Blizzard

July 26, 2011, 06:00:21 pm #7 Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 06:02:40 pm by Blizzard
Even though I agree that debates can broaden your horizons and that one should always consider the opposing opinion to be valid than one's own, there are still topics where most of the forum largely agrees. I think that it depends on the topic. It wouldn't be the first time that I took the side of an opposing opinion not because I believe in but because I wasn't completely convinced in my own opinion. Of course, such a motivation falls often short and after a few posts I agree with the original opinion. If somebody else had taken my points further, something might have come out of it and the debate could have continued on another level.

EDIT: See, this topic isn't doing so bad. I guess I have reduced my activity quite a bit so I don't do what I sometimes used to do which is me posting an opposing opinion just to see how things would play out.
Check out Daygames and our games:

King of Booze 2      King of Booze: Never Ever
Drinking Game for Android      Never have I ever for Android
Drinking Game for iOS      Never have I ever for iOS


Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Vell

This topic is turning out to be a successful debate in my opinion. Two clearly opposing views, yet we're intelligently putting forth arguments.

Forgive me for the shorter post. As you said yourself, taking the opposing view just to see how things play out is exactly what I'm talking about. In an actual debate you feel strongly for, it is unlikely you'd be able to muster the care to see the other side enough to argue for it. But if it's a simple thing you're not so whole-heartedly behind, takign the other side is fun and could at least make a debate enjoyable.

Power Hungry Midget

I suppose this topic is a good example of well thought out debate. But aside from that, it's hardly a thrilling debate, not something that has me frantically bashing my keyboard because someone is wrong on the internet. I'm starting to come around to your point of view though. I've actually been encouraged now to start a topic.

The plot thickens......

I have a mind to join a club and then beat you over the head with it.
     -Groucho Marx
I often quote myself. I find it adds spice to the conversation.
     -George Bernard Shaw

http://xkcd.com/303

Bigamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is the same.
    -Oscar Wilde