A tip to all hopeful game makers.

Started by RoseSkye, February 29, 2012, 04:29:15 am

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RoseSkye

Pick a genre and stay with it...
Stop bloody trying to throw in everything and a cow. Take the time to plot out and brainstorm instead of just doing crap.

Storyboard
Write ideas on notepads
PLAN
and for the love of god flesh out your stories.


I would not give two fucks if Breast McTits died  if I didnt get the time to know her. You make characters endearing and 3 dimensional and MAKE the person experiencing the game mourn the losses. I am bloody sick of seeing amateur games with potential fall short because they want to copy cool things they saw other people do.

Here is another tip... stop compiling on scripts in the absence of actual content.

sasofrass

Couldn't agree more with you lol.

Had a friend who started his own game with RMVX and had it "completed" in just 2 months time. I went to play it and it was very buggy, the story was nonexistent really, it was alright for the first 1/10th of the game then it just died. Not to mention the mapping was horrendous and extremely half-ass'd. I did manage to play through it, about 4 hours total in playable content, mainly because it was filled with so many random enemy encounters it just took so long to get from point A to B. The final boss was a disgrace, he had one ability and that was he healed himself when below 50% health.

I told him the game was awful and said I would give him a 2/10. He got extremely upset with me and we stopped talking lol. I was like  :???:

I, myself, have been working on a game for about 6 months now and I feel like I am just getting to the point where I could release a short demo for it. Maybe in another month? Who knows!

Subsonic_Noise


Futendra

I agree with this, I at first had 100s of projects running at once, not one has ever been finished, now I started with a basic idea, worked that out for a month or two and started working around it in game. Now I am working around 3 months on my game now and it is SLOWLY getting shape, no more games with "Yeah, that random girl you don't know, well she has lost her boyfriend. go find her boyfriend, he is in the forest, somewhere..."

MarkHest

I agree. Sticking with a special gendre that is something just for you will work out the best for both the developer and gamer. Sure it's good to have inspiration from other games and all, that's how the game comunity is built, but as you said:

QuoteI am bloody sick of seeing amateur games with potential fall short because they want to copy cool things they saw other people do.


They realy should focus on their strong sides instead of the top moments of another games...
A game will work out the best when you enjoy making it and adding a tip of your personality and interests in it. That way the story will become more precise, you know what you're doing and you know how to do it.
When i started The Missing Part i knew exactly what i wanted to do becouse i thought of making my own game, not another version of other games. So far things have been working out pretty good for me :)
   

Heretic86

My biggest gripe about hobbyist games is many seem to think that stories come from Walls of Text.  I dont mind long winded dialogue, but for christ sake, put some freakin animations in, or do something more than just have two characters face each other for twenty minutes plus straight!  Give the characters gestures.  Make those very simple movemets we are limited to reflect their body language.  Make them express their emotions through their movements.  Bring them to LIFE!

Gripe #2.  I dont want to read a book about a story where I am literally reading a book inside of the book about a story within another story, I want to experience a story with the characters.  When characters start telling useless stories, I start yawning.  When I live the experience with the characters and listen to them talk to each other as people would be expected to talk to each other, I can experience what they experience through their eyes, I see them react to an event, I can relate to their reaction, when they come up with a clever idea, I feel clever as well, when they are devestated by the loss of another character, then and only then am I just as devestated as the characters are, and when I accomplish something major enough that it is cause for celebration, then I celebrate that achievement as well.  Let the Characters Experience the Story so I can Experience it through their eyes.

Gripe #3.  I dont want to try half assed stuff.  If it is the very first map you've ever made, I dont really wanna play it.  I want to see your Masterpiece.  And those only come one or a few in a Lifetime.  Revise your stuff until it is PERFECT.  Movies go through a lot of revisions because they are very limited by the ammt of time they have to show the movie in.  Games are quite different in that we can play the same game for hours on end, and if we are satisfied with the Gameplay, but just because it isnt expected to be two hours in length does not give free license to ramble on forever about shit that would put a caffeine addict wired up on enegry drinks and four gallons of octane into a narcoleptic coma.

Dont be afraid to trim some of the fat.  If your dialogue is too long, find a way to revise it, get the important information across, and make it better, make it funnier, or make it more heart felt, or make it more goal oriented.  If it is too short, pad it out with meaningful content.

Gripe #4.  I need to know where I am supposed to go.  If I am expected to make my own discovery, then box me in to a smallish area and let me find what I am supposed to find quickly, without wasting multiple hours on trying to find out I need to press enter while standing in front of a tree with a hole in it.  Direction should be provided by character reinforcement and dialogue.  Getting off track or I forget what the hell I am supposed to be doing, then use the characters as tools to guide me to where I am supposed to go, but dont just expect that I am somehow psychic and know I should go back to the town where I started.  Im impatient, and many times I like to just skip through the story, so reinforce the idea that I need to go back to town when I start getting off track, and take advantage of multiple opportunities to reinforce that idea.  "Where are you going?  We need to get back to Bobville and talk to the Mayor!"

Just some of my own personal minor annoyances that even the "pros" still do.
Current Scripts:
Heretic's Moving Platforms

Current Demos:
Collection of Art and 100% Compatible Scripts

(Script Demos are all still available in the Collection link above.  I lost some individual demos due to a server crash.)

Calintz

@herectic:
those must be universal gripes. couldn't have said it better myself.

MarkHest

April 11, 2012, 02:48:41 am #7 Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 02:51:00 am by MarkHest
@Heretic86: I agree with most of what you're saying. However i disagree a bit with what you said about the story part. If it's an RPG with turn based battles then there's not much you can do exept reinforce your game with an interesting and long storyline with lots of dialogues.
But you did say that we can bring the long chats to life with animations and movement, this is a very good idea for people that create games with a very detailed story(Like me). Right now my conversations within my game misses a lot of movements and animations but i am going to change that, trust me.
Some people wants a story while others wants gameplay.
We're talking about RPG's here so story telling is unavoidable but as you said, use your full potential and "Bring them to LIFE!"
So yeah, take heed to what is said within this thread.

I just wanted to state this for those game makers that have their games focused on storyline. Listen to Heretic86 and your game might become more popular in the final release. He is wise  :haha:

   

Heretic86

Im wise enough to know that at times, even I may be a total Dumbass!   :facepalm:
Current Scripts:
Heretic's Moving Platforms

Current Demos:
Collection of Art and 100% Compatible Scripts

(Script Demos are all still available in the Collection link above.  I lost some individual demos due to a server crash.)

Seltzer Cole

It is probably best to know how your storyline will begin and end before you even create it. Otherwise, you are commencing blindly.

One thing I hate most is how people create a game based on zombies or some other popular idea. If you are going to create your own version of a popular idea, than please make it better than what has already been created.

Another downfall is basing a game on storyline to the point where you literally feel like it is some sort of movie. Nobody honestly cares so much about your storyline that they want to sit there watching clip after clip. Its a game, not a movie. (Reminds me of FF13 with its damn 40 minute storyline clips)

~ Toodles
You know you play video games to much when you put sunglasses on and whisper "Plus 10 Appearance"

If at first you don't succeed, call it version 1.0

Calintz

hey, i enjoyed FFXIII's storyline clips thank you!

Heretic86

I didnt really care for FFXIII all that much.  Sure it was absolutely gorgeous, but I never felt any sense of accomplishment when I think I should have.  On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd have to rate the game about a B minus.

Its one of those things that is really hard to put my finger on exactly why it didn't 100% click with me.  I had fun with a lot of stuff, but left me feeling like I ate chinese food, where 15 minutes later, I was hungry again.  It could have been the Encyclopedia Fal'Cie'atica that drove me nuts.  I think what I wanted was to be in control of the characters as those critical story elements unfolded for me.  It was too much like watching a movie.  Ok get to another spot in a forest, play random unrelated custscene where Spaz, er Saz's kid gets turned into a L'Cie, and I wasnt in control of him, then return to forest.  Like watching a movie by throwing a dvd in and hitting random on all the chapters...  I think what I wanted was the story to be a bit more linear (exploration to have been less linear), and when something happened to the characters, to have been in control of them just before that important story event happened.

Of course, who am I to speak?  I havent exactly released a game yet.  Still working on polishing scripts, developing my Art Style and Story Telling Style.  But I did put together a Demo a while ago based on exactly what I was saying earlier.  It grew into more than that, but Im not working on developing it any further right now, well, till I get some time to focus on it...

http://www.775.net/~heretic/downloads/rmvx/index.php (actually an XP game, I put in wrong folder...)

Do you think I hit the mark on my own advice (from above), or did I miss it completely?
Current Scripts:
Heretic's Moving Platforms

Current Demos:
Collection of Art and 100% Compatible Scripts

(Script Demos are all still available in the Collection link above.  I lost some individual demos due to a server crash.)

G_G

Quote from: Heretic86 on April 11, 2012, 11:08:03 pm
I didnt really care for FFXIII all that much.  Sure it was absolutely gorgeous, but I never felt any sense of accomplishment when I think I should have.  On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd have to rate the game about a B minus.

Its one of those things that is really hard to put my finger on exactly why it didn't 100% click with me.  I had fun with a lot of stuff, but left me feeling like I ate chinese food, where 15 minutes later, I was hungry again.  It could have been the Encyclopedia Fal'Cie'atica that drove me nuts.  I think what I wanted was to be in control of the characters as those critical story elements unfolded for me.  It was too much like watching a movie.  Ok get to another spot in a forest, play random unrelated custscene where Spaz, er Saz's kid gets turned into a L'Cie, and I wasnt in control of him, then return to forest.  Like watching a movie by throwing a dvd in and hitting random on all the chapters...  I think what I wanted was the story to be a bit more linear (exploration to have been less linear), and when something happened to the characters, to have been in control of them just before that important story event happened.

Of course, who am I to speak?  I havent exactly released a game yet.  Still working on polishing scripts, developing my Art Style and Story Telling Style.  But I did put together a Demo a while ago based on exactly what I was saying earlier.  It grew into more than that, but Im not working on developing it any further right now, well, till I get some time to focus on it...

http://www.775.net/~heretic/downloads/rmvx/index.php (actually an XP game, I put in wrong folder...)

Do you think I hit the mark on my own advice (from above), or did I miss it completely?


DO NOT play FF13 part II. Its confusing all the way up until the end, and then it kills off the main character, and slaps a To Be Continued right in your fucking face. >:\

Heretic86

@MarkHest

I hadn't really considered the dialogue during battle scenes.  Youre right, we cant exactly move the characters around, well, at least with RMXP's default setup.  A clever person could find a way to use Dialogue to bring those characters to life, even during a Boss Fight or Random Encounter.  Older Final Fantasy games seems to have set the standard for having Dialogue during Cutscenes, IMHO.  The dialogue could imply that the party has to work together as a Team, and use a certain degree of Strategy in order to beat a Boss.  Or maybe its an easy way to introduce a brand new character to the party.

It would be kind of a shame to have an incredible game that dries up during Fight Scenes.  If there is that much dialogue in a game, it is almost to be expected that there should be at least some conversation in Fights as well.  I even have fun going through tutorials in Fight Scenes!  Especially with non default RM Scripts that can do incredible things as they need to be understood by the player!  Its like the perfect opportunity for Special Stuff to have the Characters Banter, like a Reflect Spell, so players can learn as the characters learn, which to me, is allowing the Player to experience things as the Characters experience them!

Props to you on that statement, Sir!
Current Scripts:
Heretic's Moving Platforms

Current Demos:
Collection of Art and 100% Compatible Scripts

(Script Demos are all still available in the Collection link above.  I lost some individual demos due to a server crash.)

MarkHest

Don't get me wrong, i still think your Gripes are awesome and correct. Only the dialogue thing bothered me a bit so i felt like i needed to state my mind in that matter.

There's something i would like to add to this.

There are tons of other ways of reinforcing your RPG's with storytelling and dialogues. There is the very clichée, overused and awe-inspiring DUNGEON traveling! Nobody realy likes a game full of dungeons

(This is from my opinion only, take note of that)
Please, oh, PLEASE!! Do not overuse dungeons in your game for crying out loud! If there's anything i hate most it would be when i play a game that has random encounters and tons of boring dungeons that you have to travel through.
And even if you do have a lot of dungeons, at least keep them interesting.
Do not use the normal: "We must go to this dungeon and get the key to that castle"


So you go to the dungeon and it looks like this:

  • Find switch

  • Go through tons of corridors with tons of random encounters to the place you just unlocked

  • Come to a new bigger place within the dungeon

  • Find the new switch and press it

  • Go to the door you unlocked

  • Find a key to another door

  • and once you're done with all the boring stuff you get to fight a boss at the end as usual which has no background story whatsoever...



Try to keep it interesting instead of doing the same thing over and over and OVER AND OVER!! I hate games that keep using dungeons as a timewaster as dungeons are never realy fun at all, it's the same thing as any other game that uses this idea.

Now, i'm not saying you should not put dungeons in your game. I'm just saying that you should try and make it interesting instead of doing the same thing over and over(see the list above).
Remember that a game is supose to be fun, not annoying.
So how do we make a dungeon fun? With a bit of creativity you can go a long way.

(remember, that this is till stated from my opinion.)

First of all, we need to look at a dungeon in a different way. When you say the word Dungeon, what's the first thing that comes to mind...? That's right, puzzle solving, random encounters, looking for keys etc...
We must first change how we use the word dungeon. Do not think of it as a... well... dungeon :facepalm:
Instead try to think of this place as a different area within the outside world. Forget the word dungeon or cave or temple, whatever you wanna call it. Try to imagine this place as just another place within the overworld where lots of cutscenes, exploring, boss fights and story relevant things can happen.
It's is realy hard to explain what i mean, but i am trying my best.

It's okay to fetch a key for a door or pressing a switch for it. But not over 50 times in a single dungeon...
Another thing is to keep the story up even within the dungeon. Add a few cutscenes, make some easter eggs, make mini-games, make the characters experience the dungeon as well and not just yourself.

I hope you get my point, i must go now.
   

Calintz

i powered you up for your response. very thorough, very positive. to mention that a creator should change the way they think about dungeons at it's core is an extremely productive piece of advice. you did a great job explaining yourself. good work. that was a great post.

p.s. minecart mayhem.

Seltzer Cole

Quote from: MarkHest on April 12, 2012, 07:03:52 am
So you go to the dungeon and it looks like this:

  • Find switch

  • Go through tons of corridors with tons of random encounters to the place you just unlocked

  • Come to a new bigger place within the dungeon

  • Find the new switch and press it

  • Go to the door you unlocked

  • Find a key to another door

  • and once you're done with all the boring stuff you get to fight a boss at the end as usual which has no background story whatsoever...



(remember, that this is till stated from my opinion.)


This made me lol. Extremely true, but I will admit that the only games I didn't mind that had meaningless dungeon crawls are the games that I don't even care for storyline, and I only play to focus on lvling and owning. For example Dark Stone for playstation or even sacred for the PC. But yeah, if your game lacks in epic battles, there is no sense in making someone dungeon crawl and fight some meaningless boss that seemed to be a newly discovered species amongst NPCs.
You know you play video games to much when you put sunglasses on and whisper "Plus 10 Appearance"

If at first you don't succeed, call it version 1.0

GrimTrigger

A few things:

If one thing makes me rage more than anything in RPGs, it's the feeling of being "forced" to stay in one region versus another, simply because of some contrived plot device. I never want to say to a player "hurr durr you can't go cross bridge bc I says so." I understand, given the limits of 2D rgps, that some linearity is required, but I try to mask it as best as I can. Instead of keeping someone from entering a region by placing guards that tell you to gtfo, I try to make it so the player willingly avoids regions until the appropriate time. Often I do this by making regions much more difficult to handle, so that it isn't possible for a weak player to survive. I don't tell them no, but I give them the back of the hand if they try anyway. (BTW I play test a lot, so I make sure you can power-level yourself into soloing the game.)

Another thing I hate is how there is an almost completely linear progression in the gear that the player finds available in shops/caves/etc as he/she advances throughout the game. It's as if, by sheer coincidence, the exact path you took to complete the game just so happened to be the one that progressively allows you to acquire better stuff. I combat this in two ways. The first way is to have shops offer a wider selection of goods, but have the best stuff pricey and out of the players reach for quite some time. The second way is to have the better gear available in the richer cities, so that if you are out in the middle of nowhere, you don't have access to premium shopping. If you want high-end gear, hit up the high-end cities.

The last thing I wish more RPGs included was a more believable dialogue. I hate walking up to an NPC and reading "I like turtles".....that's not acceptable in my book. I have many towns, and the people (during the day when they are out) all have something relevant to talk about. Frequently they gain new things to say after checkpoints in the story are met. I have old women who talk about the history of the town, young men who talk about the cute girls hanging out by the antique store, and soldiers who complain about all sorts of things you'd expect them to be pissy about. Essentially, try to make talking to NPCs worth the 30 plus seconds of your time. I find I play a lot of games now where I talk only to those who I need to.

Just my thoughts.

~Grim


Heretic86

I havent finished a game yet, but here is what I'm doing just to deal with the story related issues you described.

I created a variable called "story" in my game, and increment that each time a major plot point takes place.  That way I can go through to each NPC event and try to give them more relevant dialogue to both guide the player to where they are supposed to go next, and make those NPC characters seem a bit more self aware of the happenings of the game.
Current Scripts:
Heretic's Moving Platforms

Current Demos:
Collection of Art and 100% Compatible Scripts

(Script Demos are all still available in the Collection link above.  I lost some individual demos due to a server crash.)

GrimTrigger

Quote from: Heretic86 on April 17, 2012, 10:47:39 pm
I havent finished a game yet, but here is what I'm doing just to deal with the story related issues you described.

I created a variable called "story" in my game, and increment that each time a major plot point takes place.  That way I can go through to each NPC event and try to give them more relevant dialogue to both guide the player to where they are supposed to go next, and make those NPC characters seem a bit more self aware of the happenings of the game.


That's a pretty good idea.

Another thing I'd add is to spend a lot of time on each *major* town or city, and try to make them relevant across the whole story. Allows, like you mentioned, for the NPCs to stay up to day on the latest happenings, and also cuts down on the number of places you need to create. (I have about 5 major cities, 11 minor towns, and a whole slew of tiny villages.) I never liked in some RPGs how a whole city can be only useful for one or two quests, and then you never need to set foot in it again. I try to have the player revisit cities, keeping them relevant, and giving plenty of incentive to explore them. I tend to make my cities fairly large, and even a small town will have upwards of 15 homes, plus an inn, shops, amenities.

For example, I start the player off in an upscale town of medium size, with a large cathedral, several shops, an inn, and several homes. There is a small park, farms outside the main walls, and a slew of street vendors. Many of these locations are of significant importance, plus a few homes can lead to side quests. You don't get to access all the quests all at once, and you may find yourself hopping in a carriage or walking back after an hour or so of play, but you feel like the towns are actually *alive* with activity.