Open vs restricted

Started by GrimTrigger, April 19, 2012, 09:09:23 pm

Previous topic - Next topic

GrimTrigger

I've been working on a game which draws heavily from games such as Skyrim, Fable, etc. It mirrors that game in terms of npc interactions, choice, and "open" lands to explore. One of the things I've always liked is the ability to travel the lands as I see fit, and engage the story as I please.

To fit this into a 2D rpg, I allow the player to roam the lands, but to a certain degree. Right off the bat, you are able to travel to roughly 7 established settlements and a few geographic locations. There is a horse drawn carriage which can ferry you around the major destinations (for a small fee, tailored to the distance traveled, as it is in Skyrim.) You are given a quest at the beginning which will point you in the right direction, and you are given lots of reinforcement as to what you need to do to move the story along. I partition off sections of the world (half the world unavailable until the main quest is about 1/3 complete, the southern and northern reaches unavailable at start.) In terms of all immediately reachable areas (generic roads, etc), monsters/enemies are roughly the same strength, (because who would live in an area where 25,000 HP dragons roam freely?) Challenges come from the occasional tough encounter, or through the numerous quests. I do make many locations that have special purposes (like mountains, dungeons, etc) have strong monsters, so it's not like every single map has nothing but 500HP slimes. Also, encounter rates increase as you move farther away from human settlements and more powerful monsters will live in these locations.

Possible benefits to this system:
>Increased freedom to explore and feel immersed in the world
>Ability to customize your experience and how you level up, gain items, make money.
>No "I forgot to grab that item, now I need to restart/reload because I can't go back."
>Allows for story to focus on problems, issues, and enemies, instead of constant roadblocks at each town.

Negatives I've experienced:
>Requires more "clues" to keep player on the "right path."
>After a certain level, random encounters can become tedious. (I have world semi-partitioned, so newer areas are made harder to fight through, and sometimes require quests which provide the challenges to keep things fresh.)
>Requires lots of interesting maps to keep the player "wanting" to be free.
>Harder to work in cut-scenes/requires careful eventing to avoid game-breaking errors


So my question to you all is how do you address the issue of linearity/freedom in your games, and what advice do you have for me to make this "open" game of mine playable?

ForeverZer0

You are forgetting the number one con: game balance.

Giving the player access to areas that have stronger enemies, ones with better goodies and experience, easily allows the balance of your game to be thrown off.
I am done scripting for RMXP. I will likely not offer support for even my own scripts anymore, but feel free to ask on the forum, there are plenty of other talented scripters that can help you.

GrimTrigger

Quote from: ForeverZer0 on April 19, 2012, 09:36:26 pm
You are forgetting the number one con: game balance.

Giving the player access to areas that have stronger enemies, ones with better goodies and experience, easily allows the balance of your game to be thrown off.


Yes, that is true. Very very true. I try to balance this in several ways while endeavoring to maintain the illusion of freedom.

1.) I make it difficult to solo the game. Very difficult. The game's main story involves meeting new characters, and joining forces to meet challenges. The way the characters level their stats, even being 2x the level you need, you probably will still die without backup. This is one of those "save often" games.  8) Thus, if you try to break the game, the game breaks you. Soviet Russia, etc, etc. The increased freedom has a lot of risk involved.

2.) Any area with significantly strong monsters gives you a "heads up" that you are "in over your head." (Event's that measure your level, trigger a cutscene where an ally, or bystander warns you of great danger. This can be useful if the minimum level to survive isn't reached by the main character.) I don't stop you, but if you wanna suicide into a dragon's den, more power to you, lol.

3.) High priced, high-power loot will come from quests, where the rewards and EXP will grow as you level up and progress through the chapters, (which can be level dependent based on events if I see it necessary to do so.) I don't want to go full-on level dependency, but like in just about all games, the good stuff comes later, but never grants you an OP weapon or skill.

4.) Leveling comes from three sources: Quest-related battles, random encounters, runestones.

>The quests will provide the bulk of your EXP, thus keeping you from needing to grind on monsters unless you choose to.
>The random encounters provide some leveling, allowing you to "top off" you party levels, and power up if you want to skip side quests.
>Runestones are locations scattered all over the place that grant small EXP, Parameter boosts, etc.

5.) I do boat loads of battle-testing using a wide range of gear, party levels, skills, etc to try to find ways to "cheat," and then correct them.

Heretic86

Just griping in general.  I usually loathe grinding.  And by grinding, I mean getting to a dungeon, find everything in it, then continue playing it for the next eight hours in order to progress the story because of some excessively difficult boss.

Like forever said, I think Balance is Key.  I think that if I fully explore a rather large dungeon in order to get all the items and what not out of it, I should be at the appropriate level to be able to beat whatever boss is thrown my way.  But if I just run through a dungeon too quickly and skip everything, that said boss should still be possible to defeat, just way more difficult.  Of course, if I can grind in a harder area, level up really fast, get really really really good gear, then come back, I want at least some sort of a challenge from the boss, but really a minimal challenge.

Dying too frequently tends to piss me off.  Especially if I tried to grind for like an hour and am trying to get out of a dungeon to save then died 10 feet from being able to save.  But, at the same time, cant be too easy.  Im impatient, and dont have all the time in the world to sit around playing games any more, even high budget games, so I usually run around FPS games with god mode on many times just so I can see what the game had to offer without the nuisance of getting set back 4 hours every time I miss one keystroke at a critical time.

I also get frustrated where if I wander around for more than 10 minutes without any clues at all as to where I am supposed to go, I tend to turn the game off and not come back.  Other rare times when the time is available to me and a game is really really good, I sink my teeth into it as much as I can!  I also find that if I can cheat, I usually do.  Im not really impatient, I just dont have time like I used to.  So if you are gonna make your game super super difficult, please make some sort of a Cheat Option.
Current Scripts:
Heretic's Moving Platforms

Current Demos:
Collection of Art and 100% Compatible Scripts

(Script Demos are all still available in the Collection link above.  I lost some individual demos due to a server crash.)

Blizzard

April 20, 2012, 04:22:31 am #4 Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 04:23:35 am by Blizzard
There is an alternative for the balance problems, but it has its own pros and cons: Adaptable difficulty. If you get stronger, enemies get stronger. This can be observed in Skyrim. As you progress further in the game and get your level higher, you will encounter stronger enemies more frequently in the dungeons. But this kind of approach makes it hard to distribute specific gear around and the only thing that you can do is to use randomly generated gear that yet again suits that player's level. With this approach it is never too easy or too hard (at least in theory), but the drawbacks are that the whole game is structured like that. So you can easily go into the mega dragon dungeon whenever you want and play it through normally. This also limits the player from creating a challenge for himself since all dungeons will feature enemies with an adequate difficulty level. It also kills a certain aspect of exploration because you know that there is no dungeon with super powerful enemies that have an item which is far more powerful than the one you currently have. It just takes away that aspect of optional challenge.
Check out Daygames and our games:

King of Booze 2      King of Booze: Never Ever
Drinking Game for Android      Never have I ever for Android
Drinking Game for iOS      Never have I ever for iOS


Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

GrimTrigger

April 20, 2012, 03:16:13 pm #5 Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 03:47:22 pm by GrimTrigger
Quote from: Blizzard on April 20, 2012, 04:22:31 am
There is an alternative for the balance problems, but it has its own pros and cons: Adaptable difficulty. If you get stronger, enemies get stronger. This can be observed in Skyrim. As you progress further in the game and get your level higher, you will encounter stronger enemies more frequently in the dungeons. But this kind of approach makes it hard to distribute specific gear around and the only thing that you can do is to use randomly generated gear that yet again suits that player's level. With this approach it is never too easy or too hard (at least in theory), but the drawbacks are that the whole game is structured like that. So you can easily go into the mega dragon dungeon whenever you want and play it through normally. This also limits the player from creating a challenge for himself since all dungeons will feature enemies with an adequate difficulty level. It also kills a certain aspect of exploration because you know that there is no dungeon with super powerful enemies that have an item which is far more powerful than the one you currently have. It just takes away that aspect of optional challenge.


This is why I still enjoy playing Morrowind, because I actually have to be careful who I mess with. For my game, you are free to explore a pretty expansive region, and perform a number of side-quests, all optional, all with varying difficulty. You are constantly directed towards the main quest story line, but doing the side quests and exploring allows you to increase your wealth, power level, and learn more about the world your inhabiting. There are plenty of places that contain stronger than average monsters, and some that you flat-out can't handle until later in the game. This gives you a reason to comeback and try again. Most of these special places are either quest related (meaning critical parts don't activate until a switch is turned on appropriate to the story) or random "extras" that can reward you with good gear and treasure if you can defeat it's challenges.

It would be simple for me to further partition the world, and increase it's linearity, but so far, based on my play testing, I haven't found anything to make me thing it's needed....so far....



What I'd like to know from other people, (part of why I made this thread) is to understand how others address this issue. Do you like having games linear? Do you flat out say "you can't go in here" or do you try to mask it? I'm curious, as this seems like a big part of how a game functions, yet I see the thinly veiled linearity put into most RPGs existing almost uniformly. I try to take the opposite approach. Instead of forcing the player to stay within the story-line, I try to naturally attract them to it.

GrimTrigger

Quote from: Heretic86 on April 20, 2012, 04:04:25 am
1.... continue playing it for the next eight hours in order to progress the story because of some excessively difficult boss.

2.... But if I just run through a dungeon too quickly and skip everything, that said boss should still be possible to defeat, just way more difficult.  Of course, if I can grind in a harder area, level up really fast, get really really really good gear, then come back, I want at least some sort of a challenge from the boss, but really a minimal challenge.

3Dying too frequently tends to piss me off.  Especially if I tried to grind for like an hour and am trying to get out of a dungeon to save then died 10 feet from being able to save. 

4... So if you are gonna make your game super super difficult, please make some sort of a Cheat Option.


1. Non of the Main Story Boss are going to be overpowered, as I set there stats to be "beatable" by the "minimum level-gear-skills" that you would obtain by that time. Put another way, I estimate what level your party would be at (roughly) at that point in time, had you only done Main Story Quests. I select only gear that you would be able to obtain easily, and fight the boss in battle test mode. I set the stats such that you can beat him with moderate difficulty. On the other hand, optional bosses may exceed you ability to beat at this current time, but there power is relative to their underlings that inhabit their dungeon, tower, castle, etc. This ensures you won't fight your way to the end, only to hit a wall. If you can survive the preliminary challenges, the boss will be beatable. (Think the Pokemon gyms.)

2. There will be chances to power-level yourself, but the way I've been designing the game, you're ability to take down difficult foes relies more on "how" you fight and use your skills, vs smashing your high-level stats into the boss' face. (I have class promotions like in Fire Emblem, and your are able to choose a subclass that bestows new abilities, often trading between high offense, stats etc, and having technical skills like status effects, support functions.) The nice thing about being free is you are allowed to try to fight in many areas that have high level monsters, and level that way. I encourage this actually, but I have partitioned off the game enough such that you won't be able to make yourself game-breakingly OP too soon. Also, the inflation for leveling is set a little higher than normal, so taking on new, exciting dungeons with tough monsters is actually the strategy of choice when it comes to leveling, versus grinding on wolves and slime. I modeled this off of some MMORPGS I've played. (I've you've ever played Rising Force Online, you'll know I also have experienced the pain of the grind-fest.)

3. I don't have floating save crystals. I let you save whenever you want. I also tend to hide lots of items around, so for at least the first attempt at a dungeon, you won't always get stuck. I do encourage saving often. I did it all the time with Golden Sun. I think sometimes people get used to the "autosave" functions of games like Skyrim, and get spoiled. Not accusing you of this, of course. I just have always saved a file before doing anything that looked remotely important, so maybe it's just my habits.

4. I don't find the game super difficult. I provide a quest book that explains what you need to do, and allow you to customize how your team grows to match your preferred playing style. I find it takes a little bit of planning, and some critical thinking, but at no point do I throw the player into impossible quests or give them no direction. I simply give them the freedom to roam the world and explore.

Vexus

April 20, 2012, 04:04:27 pm #7 Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 05:05:36 pm by Vexus
In my current game I'm kinda trying the bethseda games approach but let me tell you from advance that doing the project alone will take you a lot of time.

After some months of mapping only the first map (Tough it's big 240x200) with 3 dungeons complete of 7 I started eventing the map to have a routine (What's a sandboxish/open game without a day/night system?) and it's not easy nor fast to make it work together for every possible thing that could happen.

I finished the outside routine of each event in the first town but now I have to event their routines when they are inside their houses or other houses AND having to update by switches every single event throughout the map if x time has passed while your still inside some weapon shop or whatever other house.

It's hard, very annoying and takes A LOT of time to make it work flawlessly having to play test several times to fix bugs step by step per event. (A day in my project lasts 24 minutes starting the game at 8 am. If I need to test an event routine to fix it @ 18:00 I have to waste 12 minutes each time I play test until I fix it.)
Current Project/s:

Blizzard

I personally like both types of games. But open games usually take much more time to play through, especially if you're a completionist. I'd say that I prefer linear games myself, because I also like the story aspect of a game. When you play a linear game, you get sucked into the story much more than if you play a game where the main quest is kind of on the side and you don't really have to go through it if you don't want to. I'm a sucker for good stories, what can I say.
Check out Daygames and our games:

King of Booze 2      King of Booze: Never Ever
Drinking Game for Android      Never have I ever for Android
Drinking Game for iOS      Never have I ever for iOS


Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

GrimTrigger

Quote from: Blizzard on April 20, 2012, 04:59:16 pm
I personally like both types of games. But open games usually take much more time to play through, especially if you're a completionist. I'd say that I prefer linear games myself, because I also like the story aspect of a game. When you play a linear game, you get sucked into the story much more than if you play a game where the main quest is kind of on the side and you don't really have to go through it if you don't want to. I'm a sucker for good stories, what can I say.


Believe me I'm no stranger to the amount of work it takes to map out a game, and to event everything. I try to be as efficient as possible with my game, so I find that an open, easy to travel world actually saves me a lot of work. The reason behind this is I can easy allow players to revisit cities, and have global switches open up new possibilities in familiar destinations. I actually spend more time trying to find ways to restrict game play (in order to force the story along) than I do anything else.

I try to make any restrictions to your freedom as believable as possible. For example, the country you are in is shaped like the Scandanavian peninsula, including the mountain range running up the middle. That helps block of half the world for a while, and allows for more challenging monsters to face once you find a way to reach the other side. Another point in the game (fairly early on) an important bridge blown up, and keeps you stuck in only about 1/4 of the world.

My whole theory is to make side quests tie into the main quest, augmenting it in some fashion, or serving as a break from the norm. The hard part is making them "fit" the story. I am having issues writing the story, but mostly because I have more fun mapping than story writing. I don't even understand why I enjoy mapping as much as I do, but if I was working on a team, I'd volunteer to be the mapping slave in a heartbeat.


Blizzard

Damn, where were you 3 years ago when I needed mappers for CP? xD
Check out Daygames and our games:

King of Booze 2      King of Booze: Never Ever
Drinking Game for Android      Never have I ever for Android
Drinking Game for iOS      Never have I ever for iOS


Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

GrimTrigger

Quote from: Blizzard on April 21, 2012, 02:01:44 pm
Damn, where were you 3 years ago when I needed mappers for CP? xD


Slaving away in my economics courses  :^_^':