Can of Worms Chaos Project Style - Monday 24/09/2012

[Memor-X]

In Australia we have this show called Can of Worm where the host introduces a yes or no topic to 3 guests, the topic either comes from the news or from their social sites (twitter, facebook, their website), not sure if outside Australia if there is a show like it

so anyway, thought it might be a good idea to get people here talking about the "Worms" as they call them, i'll try and post up every week the 2 main worms they talk about

simple rules to this, no fence sitting so yes and no are your only choices and try and explain your choice, this wouldn't really be intelligent debate if people just posted yes or now, right, lets get this week started

Monday 24/09/2012 (i was busy last night trying to get Kara no Kyoukai to convert from a .MKV with subtitles for my PS3)
Worm 1

Spoiler: ShowHide

If someone wants to live in Australia, should they have to learn English?

For those of you who don't live in Australia, if someone wants to live in your country, should they learn the local language

Worm 2:

Spoiler: ShowHide

Would you let your 15 year-old daughter sleep with her 17 year-old boyfriend under your roof?

you can swap it around so it's a 15 year-old son and 17 year-old girlfriend, though the wording may not imply it, the worm is talking about the fact that the 2 will probably have sex

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My Answers

Worm 1:

Spoiler: ShowHide

Yes, in Australia English is the major language used in society, to not learn it will put yourself in a disadvantage, there are exceptions however, if your an older person who lives with your children then as long as they know the language they can interpret, also, you can speak what ever language you want at home.

What i don't support is the old "White Australia" Policy where when being questions if you should be let in or not the questions can be changed, one such thing was resiting a passage in any number of languages other than english, tell me how that is a fair test.

Multiculturalism is being able to accept cultures that aren't your own, i'm willing to accept someone else's culture (even if i don't like it) provided they accept at least speaking English (cause it's bad enough that i'm still unable to sort out the difference between English and Japanese when i speak sometimes, thank you Visual Novels for reigniting all my studies of Japaneses which i plainly forgot in the past 6 years)

Proably the only people who are exempt from this are Aboriginal People, early settlers did steal the land from them so in all fairness they shouldn't have to learn english but it would help them if they was to integrate themselves into society (not saying they have to, they lived fine before we came)

Also, the current generation are idiots, they can barely speak English properly so having to understand another is going to be impossible for them

Worm 2:

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No, Considering i want to have a daughter one day it's something i have thought of, i personally wouldn't until she can prove to me that she's got the emotional maturity to know what's shes going to do and of cause i do plan to raise her so that she doesn't blindly follow the crowd and she understands that actions have cause and effect, sex is the one with the biggest and considering that if the guy is a detestable man-whore fuck face prick he can just leave her if she gets pregnant (if that happened, the guy have better learn to take responsibility fast or get his will ready cause i will murder him, slowly and painfully hoping that he will grow some real ball before i end up killing him)

one of the argument made is that if you tell your teenager to not do something then they'll do the opposite, that's probably because parents are idiots and treat their teenagers like children, tell them no with a mature and sound argument with enough evidence and come to a mutual understanding.

ofcause i'm still a virgin myself and fail to understand why on earth you would want to have sex at that age to begin with or why guys or girls think they need to loose their virginity so early, i only plan on giving away mine once i've found someone who truly loves me which means we have to be in a relationship for some time and how long is the average relationship for 15-17 year-olds, isn't it like a couple of months?

[Blizzard]

Worm 1

Spoiler: ShowHide

If they want to live in a certain country, they should at least learn to speak the native language to some degree. It's true that in some countries (like mine) lots of people can speak English to some degree, but it's still difficult to understand each other. So, if they want a permanent residence, they should familiarize with the language.

Worm 2:

Spoiler: ShowHide

I'd rather let them sleep with each other under my roof and being able to have some degree of control (ie. knowing that they are using a condom) than let them have sex god knows where. If they want to have sex, they will have sex, doesn't matter where. At least I want them to be safe and without some of the possible problems.

This decision is influenced by some of my beliefs. 2 years ago I probably wouldn't have been able to give a straight answer. I don't see sex as something special. Sure, it is a nice experience that two human beings share, but it does not have any significance beyond that for me. If my daughter wants to have sex, she can have sex. Of course, I'd object if she was younger than 15, but that still wouldn't stop her if she really wanted it. Because sex can have significant consequences, I'd rather support her decision and offer her guidance and advice than let her do something like this on her own without any help.

I'll add Worm 3. It's actually from the game Mass Effect 2 so spoiler alert.

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At one point in the game you encounter 2 geth fractions of which one believes that they have to protect Shepard (you, the main character) while the other believe they they have to kill him. After you complete this side quest you are given a choice. Would you simply delete the heretic geth or would you reprogram them to have the same belief as the other geth without them ever knowing. This is a difficult ethical question as if offers you to either kill all heretics or brainwash them. Switch the geth with humans, what would you do here? Is it ok to brainwash somebody even if they belief seems evil or bad from your point of view? What about you? Would you die for your beliefs or would you rather undergo brainwashing?

Note: In the game you are offered "good-guy" (paragon) and "bad-ass" (renegade) moral choices. Surprisingly both of these choices are not renegade, but one of them is actually the paragon choice (the brainwashing one).

My answer:

Worm 3

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I, personally, have some strong beliefs and without these beliefs, I wouldn't be me. I'd choose death for myself rather than giving up these beliefs even though I wouldn't ever know that I was brainwashed. I'd choose the same thing for the geth and if the geth were human (which I also did when I played the game back then). Living a lie my be worse than death if you have seen the truth before. If you are living the lie ignorant of the truth your whole life, that is bearable to some degree, but if you have already seen the truth and then it's taken away from you, I don't believe that a life like this is worth living.

[Memor-X]

My answer to Blizzard's 3rd Worm

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this very thing was a subject on one of Extra Credit's episodes, Dan was saying how James was in a state of xen when playing mass effect but then when he came to this point he had to stop and think very hard about his choice showing how games can make us rethink how own beliefs

i personally have yet to reach this point because my dad own the 360 but i know enough to make my answer, for the record, i'm sure it's the Geth that wanted to protect Shepard who are the heretics cause the Geth believe the Reapers are Gods and the very height of synthetic evolution (Seren in the first game states that Sovereign is disgusted by the very fact that the Geth see the Reapers as Gods because the Geth are not of their creation so as such will be wiped out with organic life when they return)

to me it depends on why the Geth believe in the way they do, on one of the hub worlds in Mass Effect 2, if in the first game you left the Rachnii Queen escape you see an Asarii there waiting to deliver a message to you on behalf of the Queen, the message implies that the Rachnii was being controlled by the Reapers as well so it can be believed that the Rachnii War was one of Sovereign's plots to prepare for the return of the Reapers by indoctrinating the Rachnii (the Queen's message state that they heard a song of Oil, Fire and Death during the war that drowned out their own songs), with this one can believe that the Geth who believe that Shepard must be killed are actually programmed to believe that by the Reapers, as such, it's understandable that neither destroying the Geth or reprogramming their beliefs would be a Renegade choice as either choice will free them from Reaper control, the only real benefit in the game would be in Mass Effect 3 is that if you reprogrammed them then they would bolster your forces in the war against the Reapers.

In terms of being immersed in my role in the game, when i get to that part i would understand what Tali wants, i like her and i would want to know if she thinks the Geth should be destroyed or reprogrammed and since the choice is too hard for just myself, i would like to know what choice would benefit the Quarians.

ofcause Blizzard, how you asked the Worm is that we're not talking about a choice in the game but what our choice would be in real life if we had to choose between brain-washing or death to someone or to ourselves.

If i had the choice to either brain-wash or kill someone because of their belief, i would brain-wash them 99% of the time but if their belief entailed the death of innocents (ie, what ever terrorists believe in which makes them think they can kill innocents) then death can't come sooner for them.

If i had to choose to either have myself brain-washed or die for my beliefs i would choose death, i don't believe in a god but i do believe in the Divine who was once human but obtained divinity but aren't on a level like a god, i believe in the Mordrid and the Elemental Sisters and i have spirituality and strong beliefs in being their for my friends and the people i love to the point that for the people i love i would give up my life to protect, to have someone try and take that away from me is worse than death cause they could brain-wash me to be someone who doesn't lift a finger for his friends and i can have that......ofcause, when i said i would choose death that doesn't mean i would just take it, i'd fight to there's nothing left for me, if i'm to go down i'll go down fighting

Also, Blizzard, good idea adding your own Worm, if anyone has a worm to discus then add it as well, remember to try and keep it so that there is a Yes or No answer since the point to this is to get Yes or No's and people's reasoning behind them

[Blizzard]

Lol, Extra Credits is where I took it from. xD

[winkio]

Worm 1

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I agree with the idea, but I don't think it works in practice.  People learn a language by exposure and usage, and it is hard to get that without living in a different country for a few months.  I would say that rather than requiring immigrants to learn the language, it would instead be enough to only allow government processes (business registration, taxes, etc.) to be done in a certain language, requiring everyone to either know the language themselves or have friends that can help them, which would further encourage them to learn.

Worm 2

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No.  Perhaps surprisingly, I agree with Blizz that sex isn't a big deal, but my child sure as hell would think of it as a big deal.  The age difference at that time could cause some serious self-esteem and social issues to develop.

Worm 3

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Assuming that you have to forcibly reprogram them in order to get them not to kill you, I see their beliefs as an external entity that they have no control over, not as a part of them.  The way I see it, I'm fundamentally changing their DNA.  It would be like if all people with blue eyes wanted to kill me, I would have no moral qualms about changing their eye color if it meant saving them from death.  There is no reason to kill them because of something that they have no control over.

Time to add one more:

Worm 4

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You are walking down the sidewalk at night.  It is lit by streetlights, but there are no cars or people around, besides one other person walking towards you.  Suddenly, as the person approaches, he pulls out a gun, and shouts for your phone and wallet.  You feel your life being threatened, and for some reason, decide that instead of handing over your wallet and phone, you rush the attacker.  You catch them by surprise and rip the gun from their grip, knocking them to the ground.

The situation is now this: the attacker that threatened your life is uninjured and possibly unarmed (you don't know for sure), laying on the ground.  You are standing over him with the gun he threatened you with.  What do you do?

My response:
Worm 4

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This is difficult.  I could let him go, but I don't know if he will try to take revenge and attack me with another weapon immediately, or later in the future.  He could also harm someone else if I let him go now.  While he did threaten my life, I don't think that killing him is the right way to resolve the scenario.  I could injure him by shooting a leg or hand, but that might incite him to counterattack if he is hiding another weapon.  Even if he doesn't counterattack, it could cause him to hold a lasting grudge, or be disabled for a long amount of time.  I could call the police and have him arrested, but if he decides to run away while I make the call, I won't be able to catch him.

Here is my current solution, which is by no means satisfactory.  I tell him to stay on the ground and talk to him.  If he gets up, I shoot his leg.  If he reaches for a weapon, I shoot him.  As long as he cooperates, we just talk.  I ask him why he tried to rob me.  I ask him some personal questions.  I tell him who I am, what I do for a living, etc.  Then I ask him what he would do if the situation were reversed.  Based on the conversation, I try to figure out if he will do something similar (robbing a person or threatening their life) again.  If I think he will, I call the police.  If I don't think he will, I tell him to walk away.

So that's the end of the answer, I'm just going to point out a few important things I though about.  First of all, I decided to talk with him because with a decision this important, I need more information.  I also realized that the decision has implications both immediately and in the long term future, and both need to be considered.  In the end, I have to make my judgement call, and if I'm wrong, then I potentially ruin the lives of a bunch of different people.  The problem I still have is that I have to judge an entire person on just a 2 minute conversation at gunpoint, leaving plenty of room for deception and mistakes.

[Memor-X]

My answer to winkio 's 4th Worm

NOTE: winkio, you might want to rephrase the question so it's a Yes or No answer as what we would do will back up our choice, i'm going to assume that the question is on the lines of "Would you shoot them?" or "would you take their life?"

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No I wouldn't shoot them, My code would be to show him mercy, if they took out another weapon then i would try and disarm them without shooting them, i have a problem with guns as they require very little effort to kill someone unlike a melee weapon like a sword or spear which requires effort and skill to use.

No i wouldn't take their life, not saying if they pulled out a knife and stabbed me then and there i wouldn't shoot them but killing them would be the very last resort, first, i would found out who they have harmed and their reasons, depending on their answers i would take them to a near by police station and hand them over, the gun and submit myself to questioning, otherwise i would give them a chance to flee but not before getting facial data, that way should i hear that the offender has offended again i can report him right away

[Blizzard]

Worm 4

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I probably wouldn't hesitate and shoot him in the foot to ensure he can't stand up and follow me. I'd wipe the gun off my fingerprints and throw it away a bit away from the thief. Everybody has their problems and I respect that, but I will not allow somebody to threaten my life without consequences, even if I am the one initiating these consequences. If the roles would be reversed, I'd not only expect and accept a similar outcome, I would accept the consequences even if I was going to lose my life. I took a gambit and I am prepared to accept whatever outcome.

If this was a killing yes-or-no question, no, I would not kill him. I don't want to kill him, I just want to prevent him from killing me. I could take out the clip, throw the weapon away and then throw all bullets away separately. If he had another weapon, that would be a new situation. I could also walk away with a loaded gun pointed at him until up to a point where he can't see/reach me anymore and then get rid of the gun. That way I wouldn't have to kill him to preserve my own life.
As for the revenge part, the interaction would be way too short for him to remember me.

I believe that everybody is responsible for their actions, regardless of outer influence. The influence can be as strong as you want, it still does not dictate what you actually do. And if you do something, you have to face possible consequences, whether you are ready or not. I wouldn't expect anything less the other way around.

EDIT: Re-reading your answers I realized that I have a similar look at it like Memor-X; I wouldn't take their life unless absolutely necessary (by my own judgment, obviously). Though in a nonexclusive yes-or-no scenario, I'd take measures to prevent the situation from escalating any further.