Economics, money, and the woes of the world

Started by PhoenixFire, December 06, 2013, 03:32:10 pm

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PhoenixFire

Inspired by a comment made by Shek, I think this topic deserves a good discussion about it. We have members here from all over the world, many different personalities, different walks of life, and a large variance of culture among us. My question for you all is as follows; With the way that the current world economy is, it screws over a vast majority of us all, and really does need to be changed somehow. What do you all think would happen if the world were to go back to a primarily bartering style system? (for those unaware, basically that means trading goods and services for other goods and services) Any thoughts on it? Or what about some other system? Keep in mind this is not a debate about politics, because no one singular government controls world economy, nor should it be governed by such a political system.
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winkio

While I can see why many people are saying that there are problems with the current economic system, nobody is proposing any worthwhile alternatives.  I don't see what good going 'back' to a bartering system would do, as the economy is already a bartering system.  Money is just debt that other people owe you for your goods or services.  If we get rid of money and debt, all we really do is hurt ourselves.  For example, how do you buy a house or a car or get a loan?  That would just make the economy more 'unfair'.  Let's keep in mind that in the past, monetary systems have enabled much more unequal distributions of wealth, such as kings/peasants, plantation owners/slaves, etc.  Even back when the industrial revolution first began, the business owner vs worker division was much more unequal than it is today.

The problem I see is that much of the behavior in the global economy is only good in the short term.  In other words, it is greedy.  Plenty of decisions are made that earn a small profit for a few years but will cause large damages for decades afterward.  This has been the case for the past few decades, and many of the recessions/depressions we have experienced are the direct result of foolish and greedy decisions of the past.  However, people don't make these decisions because they are evil.  They make greedy decisions because there is great pressure to do so, and no incentive to make the smarter long-term decision.  In the field of energy for example, most fossil fuel technology is cheaper and more productive in the short term.  However, by investing heavily in more expensive renewable energy, there would be more reliable sources of energy in the future and less environmental impact.  It is clear that renewable energy is a better long term decision, but due to the pressure to make greedy decisions, progress has been relatively slow.

Praelium

All I can say is that I feel really awkward about the economic system as it is right now. Not as a manner of speaking but literally, I feel awkward trying to find out how I will have to do my own living, as I am studying now, it all seems to pass by. And I realize it wont pass by soon. It will be a part of me. I have no idea what to think about it. It all seems like a blur of dollars and euros to me.

Heretic86

Okay, does anyone really think the world operates on an Honest Money System?

Im just curious how much people understand about economics in general.  Like what the difference is between Monetary and Fiscal Policies.  Where money comes from.  What gives money its value.  What influences that value.  What about things like Gold vs Stocks and Bonds as assets.  What about the History of money.  Weimar Republic and Hyperinflation.  Greenbacks.  What about Welfare, Minimum and Living Wages.  Inflation and Stagflation.

I could do this all day long, but not much point if there is no interest...
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Shek

December 06, 2013, 10:06:45 pm #4 Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 10:12:11 pm by Shek
Edit: After I wrote this, and looked at the length, I don't honestly expect anyone to read this - but it sure felt good to get it out :)

@Anyone that thinks the status quo works

Whenever you mention doing away with the Monetary system, people always have extremely thoughtful and reasonable arguments as to why this just wouldn't work.  Rightly so, they usually posit the following:

1) A Barter system isn't satisfactory, especially on a large-scale.
2) Things used to be way more unequal than they are now (Feudalism, apartheid etc)
3) Without money, how would you get the things you needed (car loans, homes, food etc)
4) Without a monetary system, no one would have an incentive to work, society would collapse

Let's say, hypothetically, that somehow I convinced you that we could do away with a Monetary system.  I then would propose a society which is completely and utterly different from the one we live in now.  A society where there is no currency, and the culture and general zeitgeist of society is completely devoid of the concept of property.  The ability to eat, and have shelter, and be healthy, is no longer determined by you having money.  These 'rights' are viewed as fundamental.   Having described this type of society you will get usually two types of responses:

             Closed minded people will usually respond with:  

                 1) That sounds like communism.  Communism doesn't work; that has been proven.
                 2) If everyone got food and shelter without having to work.  Everyone would be lazy and society would collapse.
                 
              More thoughtful people will usually respond with:  
                 1) You are describing a Utopia.  People are inherently greedy, it just wouldn't work.
                 
Let's say then that I convinced the closed minded people that people are in-fact not inherently lazy.  That human potential could be so much more than devoting 40+ hours of your week to sitting behind a counter selling cigarrettes and lottery tickets.  Just as human beings were able to branch out into the sciences and begin to understand the world around them when we changed to a sedentary society from a hunting and gathering society, so too could humanity realize greater intellectual heights if we were freed from ridiculous labor to earn a wage.  Even if this argument doesn't sway you, let's pretend it does, just for the sake of this argument.

And then let's say I convinced the more thoughtful people that:
                a) I'm not describing a Utopia, I am simply describing a society which hasn't yet existed, and therefore cannot be described with currently extant terminology.
                b) Your belief that people are inherently greedy is due to the fact that you grew up in a capitalist culture.
                                             Then they would say-> People have been greedy since the dawn of time, so are animals, it is linked to survival and natural.
                                                                Then I would say -> Scarcity of resources is the cause of greed, scarcity is no longer a reality.

(Then they would say) WHAT!? Scarcity is no longer a reality? Are you telling me that we have the infrastructure to support everyone on the planet, moreover, are you telling me the planet has enough resources to provide for everyone!?

And I'd say: Yes.  

Now let's pretend that I've somehow convinced you of everything up to this point, except as to whether or not Scarcity is a reality (that somehow there is enough in the world for everyone to live prosperously).
We then must make one logical statement:
IF Scarcity=True THEN X
for me, X=Monetary system got us to this point, but obviously something is wrong since greed is destroying the planet and will increase scarcity

IF Scarcity=False THEN Y
for me, Y=Why the heck are we denying so many people in the world health, food, and shelter?!

Scarcity definitely existed in the world at one point; but at our current level of technology as a species, it doesn't have to be so.  We have the ability to feed the world; we have the ability to clothe and house the world.
-I've been to India, I've seen entire sections of cities with house, after house, after house, all empty; not because of lack of demand (there are millions of homeless in India), but because no one has enough pieces of useless paper to exchange for entry into these homes.  
-I've been to farms across the country where miles of fields are left empty and not used, because the government is paying them NOT to grow food in order to keep the price of food down.  
-I've been at budget meetings of the A.C.O.E. and other government agencies where staff has intentionally wasted millions of dollars on flights they don't need, or equipment they have absolutely no use for, simply because if they don't use every single penny of their budget, they will be allocated less money next year.
-I've been to factories filled with workers, who's jobs could be automated by machines over night.  Yet the machines aren't placed there because the workers need the jobs in order to get pieces of paper that say $ on them.

Is this not the very definition of insanity?

Now to the crux:  We can do better than the Monetary system, we don't need wages and money to make the world work.  If we got rid of all the dollars, cents, fiat currency, bitcoins, you-name-it, right now.  We would still have food, we would still have computers, electricity, machines, blankets, cars, airplanes, space-shuttles and Mountain Dew.

Incentive is not the driver of human industry.  Knowing that if one works hard enough he may someday live in a mansion, and drive an amazing car is not a driver of human industry. That incentive structure will result in the society we have now; where investment with an oblique or episodic relationship to production reigns supreme over actual physical innovation,  where planned obsolescence of technological gadgets is more profitable than actually making something work, and where short-term investments with high-yields are more appealing than long-term investments with sustainable futures.  

The driver of human industry is freedom to pursue our passions, and as long as we are de facto slaves of the monetary system, we will always have to work to prolong the status quo.

So what now then? The world never changes because people point out flaws in the current system, the world changes when people provide an alternative which makes the current system obsolete.  

There are so many intelligent social engineers out there that have numerous solutions to these problems.  (e.g.) Roberto Unger
We have the science, infrastructure, resources, everything needed to change the world, all we lack is the political will.  

PhoenixFire

Shek, I believe we need more people that think like you out there in the world.

Winkio, I both agree and disagree. I think a barter system could work, though it would need some SERIOUS work done to it.

Praelium, I know the feeling. I hate to even have to think about economics, because as it is, I work two jobs and still don't make enough to live properly off of.

Heretic, no, those words shouldn't even be in the same sentence, unless describing what our monetary system is NOT.
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Heretic86

Quote from: DigitalSoul on December 07, 2013, 12:29:20 am
Shek, I believe we need more people that think like you out there in the world.

Winkio, I both agree and disagree. I think a barter system could work, though it would need some SERIOUS work done to it.

Praelium, I know the feeling. I hate to even have to think about economics, because as it is, I work two jobs and still don't make enough to live properly off of.

Heretic, no, those words shouldn't even be in the same sentence, unless describing what our monetary system is NOT.


Thank you for calling me out on that.  It was a test to see if anyone really understands what is going on.  Obviously Shek does, and you do too.

There are some really nasty problems in the world.  Much of it stems from money, either too much or too little.  One of the biggest problems I think we have is that ANY opposition to the current status quo (IE creating a better system that benefits all the people of the world) is quickly becoming flat out Illegal.  Journalists are fearful to report what they see and hear because they are literally threatened.  If the Journalists arent supporting the Status Quo, they are quickly being labeled "Terrorists".  As are anyone else (here anyway) that try to grow their own food so they can be self sufficient.  Five year old Children are Tazed and Handcuffed in school for normal school behaviors.  Dogs are shot and killed daily.  The Wrong Houses are invaded by Police.  There is absolutely ZERO accountability for any of these transgressions, but for the mundane, something as simple as having an expired prescription medication is resulting in years in the prison industrial complex.  My country is quickly becoming the most oppressive regime on the planet, and I am a prisoner in a police state.  A police state who bases their economy on perpetual endless wars. 

And its all powered by Money (or rather, the power to print up money) in the wrong hands.  I weep for my future as I sincerely believe I have none.
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Shek

Quote from: Heretic86 on December 07, 2013, 04:27:43 am
I weep for my future as I sincerely believe I have none.


You definitely have a future!
Yes the monetary system is fucked up, and yes our government is cracking down in a lot of ways on people's freedom.

But human history is a series of crests and troughs, and on the whole the trajectory of human excellence has been in an upward direction.

It's natural to point out the serious flaws in our current system, but if you look at our flawed system as but a step in a series of methods of social organization that the human race will go through, it's easy to be optimistic.

Things may get worse, but eventually they will be better than they ever have been; this is the trend of human history.

Ryex

Shek, you are basic describing the society pictured in Star Trek. The concept of a currency less society is not new in fact it was envisioned BEFORE Marx wrote his manifesto. Communism was Marx's compromise. Why? because a communist society can exist in parallel and harmony with a capitalist society. The problem with a truly currency less society is that it requires the complete abscess of a social concept of property being attached to status.

lets just say for sake of argument that a prominent sizable country adopted this currency less economy hell, while were at it lets assume America is this concurrency. For the sake of this argument lets also assume that every citizen of the USA has complete faith in this new economy and are behind it 100%. what happens to national relations? hoe do we support the import and export of goods with the other countries that still have a capitalist or even communist system? what if a US citizen wants to travel how to they survive? what happens if some one with a lot of money comes to america?
those and a million more question all end is big problems. the only way such a society could exist in a stable form would be if it was the ONLY society.

so the problem becomes not convenience people that it could work one by one or group by group. but convincing the entire world to switch all at once. that meas every government, every company, every business, every farm owner, every last person on earth has to abandon a 4000 year old financial system of exchange accept that everyone had the right to the basic needs of food and water, not just enough to survive but to live with out stress.
and now we get to the HARD part. a society such as described here requires a level of universal trust from every human being to every other. that those who are producing the food will actually give it out to everyone else. that the mechanics will keep things running, that the sanitation workers will keep picking up the trash and cleaning the sewers. all those little jobs that actually keep the world running like the post office, transportation workers, janitors, ect. all with no incentive other than it's "their duty to society".

I hate to say it but as much as I would like to believe such a thing is possible, it's not. even if 90% of the people in the world would follow thorough and keep the world running. I have seen with my own eyes the people who would willingly throw the proverbial wrench into the gears and break it. all it would take is a small % of people who were just a bit greedy. a few 100,000 people take one extra ration of food here and there. a few 1000 random days off from maintenance because a worker didn't feel like working that day.

even if only a small % of people take a little more than they should it adds up and the system goes out of balance. then panic sets in and people act in the interest of self preservation and it a spiral collapse form there.

sure I might be trying to pull an "end to the world" out of thin air but at least Capitalism can't catastrophically collapses on itself unless there is some outside influence.
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Heretic86

One of the reasons I chose my name is because I like playing Devil's Advocate, not because I actually believe what I express, but to test the perspective itself.  Now, with that being said...

---

What Right does society have that they can expect me to continuously provide for them with no compensation for my efforts, by way of money or other services or goods?  Why do they get to tell me what I can and cant do with my life?  (within reason, stealing and hurting other people is not reasonable)
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Blizzard

December 10, 2013, 11:37:57 am #10 Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 11:39:52 am by Blizzard
I'll just leave this link here. www.google.com/search?q=switzerland+ubi

Spoiler: ShowHide
Switzerland might introduce the so-called Unconditional Basic Income (UBI) nationwide. In a nutshell every adult citizen gets a decent amount of money every month which ensures a decent life with dignity. They can still go out and earn extra cash or just contribute to society. It's basically a step in a direction where the monetary system will be rendered obsolete in the long run if every nation joins in someday.

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locowhiteknight

Man, that sounds too good, to be true. This would never fly in the states though, because of the one word... GREED.  :( 
"Let's get down to brass tacks. How much for the ape?"

Blizzard

This is a narrow view. Given enough time, this trend could spread if successful up to the point where everybody has enough money for everything and then the monetary system becomes simply obsolete. Nobody would need money at that point. What Switzerland is doing is basically creating a bridge. It's making its citizen mostly independent from money so that the monetary system becomes only a "compatibility layer" with the rest of the world.
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Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

locowhiteknight

It does seem narrow, but it's a reality I'm faced with daily. Almost all of the people I work with are greedy, racist, bastards. I don't understand why they behave or think the way they do. They all make enough money to live comfortably on a 40-hour work week, but they're never satisfied. They always want more. They'll lie, cheat, and steal just so they pack away a little more money into their retirement account or nest egg, that they'll never live long enough to enjoy. If our company supplies something for free, most of them will take and hoard as much of the item as possible, even if there is no good reason for doing so (and there never is). But this isn't just confined to my work; I see in all different forms spread throughout American society like some kind of gross cancer. Words like 'share' seem to be foreign idea to most and it's sickening to me. For example look at the uproar over Obamacare.
I try to be an idealist, actually I identify myself as one, but I think George Carlin said it best: "Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist." Maybe as the older generation fades away, things will change for the better in the States.

"Let's get down to brass tacks. How much for the ape?"

Blizzard

December 11, 2013, 01:24:30 am #14 Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 01:26:30 am by Blizzard
It's true that things need time to change. The problem with your co-workers is that their belief system is based on thinking that material goods will bring them happiness. Don't hate or judge them for it (however frustrating it can be sometimes), because they don't even know that thy're doing it. Being greedy is not something you are, it's a behavior imposed by society (especially in the US). Observe what is happening (don't actually try to understand it) and try not ro fall in the same pattern of unconscious behavior.
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locowhiteknight

That's definitely a pattern or behavior I could never fall into, but thanks for the warning. I think sometimes it's easier to view the world through a more pragmatic lens, and just accept the fact some people in life, are just plain crummy humans. I think I'm getting far off topic, but these 'types' seem to be the major hurdle in the way of a monetary free society.
"Let's get down to brass tacks. How much for the ape?"

Blizzard

That's the worst part actually. Because it's unconscious, it's easier to fall into it than you think. But the mere fact that you can already see it in others means that you will likely avoid it or worst case realize it quickly enough.

Everybody dies some day and if the future generations are not taught the same materialistic principles like the current generation, change can happen regardless. It just takes time. Honestly, I don't think it will happen in our lifetime, but that's ok as long as we're going towards a better future.
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ForeverZer0

I think that it is a system that will not work. "Greed" is an inevitable part of humanity, and any system that is based on the virtue of human beings and could be corrupted so easily by it is doomed to fail. I personally think that such systems are simply an extension of a socialist idea, and are just as likely to be successful.

I am far, far from wealthy, and I am not jealous, nor resentful to those who are.  They are blessed with the means and the ability to have and make money, and should be an example for people to strive for, not a target to blame for everyone who does not have money and is unwilling to work to achieve success. Certainly, yes, there are many people whose riches are ill-gotten and come at the cost of others, but they are vast minority, and their sins should not be placed on every wealthy person and corporation out there.

I am disgusted by the way of direction of the world as a whole, and especially America, is going with this line of thinking. Nothing seems to have been learned by history, or even commonsense (which is not so "common" anymore), therefore we are in this position yet again.
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Shek

December 12, 2013, 07:08:48 pm #18 Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 07:18:56 pm by Shek
Quote from: ForeverZer0 on December 12, 2013, 06:28:57 pm
I think that it is a system that will not work. "Greed" is an inevitable part of humanity, and any system that is based on the virtue of human beings and could be corrupted so easily by it is doomed to fail.


I can understand the inclination to dismiss an egalitarian, moneyless society as fragile, easily corrupted and vulnerable.  I do not, however, agree with this inclination; I believe it to be misguided.

The vast majority of our social behavior is dictated by the social norms, mores and sanctions that have been drilled into our heads, both on the individual level, and on the macrosocietal level, since the day we came out of our mother's wombs.  In our society, competition is encouraged.  Making money is encouraged; "greed is good".  If we were born into a society where greed was considered as repulsive as pedaphelia, and cooperation was held to be far more important than competition, then that's how people would behave.  The society would not be fragile because only outliers on the fringes would be greedy, and they would have little impact on the society as a whole.

Blizzard's example isn't fictitious, it is living proof that a more egalitarian society can thrive.  Yes, Europe is in somewhat of an economic crisis, but that's only in the largely capitalistic southern and eastern Europian countries.  The Northern Europian countries that have adopted the less money-centric model have all thrived and been rather recession proof.

People have a knee-jerk reaction to dismiss that which doesn't exist.  When you get down to it, people's number one rationalization for Capitalism/our current system is not that "it works" but that "it is what we have".  If that's your fundamental argument for the status quo, you have ignored the most important thing about human history: culture, systems of governance, social organization, and existence as a whole, are emergent.  Reality is constantly becoming something new, something that has not yet existed.  I honestly refuse to take a nay-sayer's perspective with much creedence.  They were wrong about electricity, heliocentrism, women's rights, flight....

Also while we're at it:
Spoiler: ShowHide

I grew up in a wealth bubble.  My neighbors, relatives, and friends growing up were all 1%-ers.  I can say without an ounce of hesitation that even though these individuals all did work very hard, and intelligently set goals and worked to achieve them:
a) They had the privilege of fantastic educations in their formative years that taught them to succeed
b) They were born into a situation where they could succeed
c) Millions of people work, and plan just as hard as they do, and never get rich, and it's because of the reality of their circumstances

When it comes down to it, there is absolutely no difference between a wealthy person and a poor person, other than the circumstances of their birth.
People that argue for the monetary status quo seem to believe we live in a meritocracy.  The monetary system smothers social mobility, it does not aid it.  



 

ForeverZer0

Capitalism is without refute the most successful system humanity has ever seen. Period.
Socialistic systems have and always will fail, simply because of the nature of human beings.  Human beings are flawed, therefore a system that is all about equality and selflessness will always fail. Human beings are not selfless, and as far as "deserving of money", not equal in the slightest degree.

Honestly, for many reasons I don't feel like even bothering wasting my time explaining here, this topic and line of thinking disgusts me, and makes feel this world is even more lost. People continue to keep chasing the down the path the very line of thinking that got us into the situation we are in to begin with, and call it a "solution" to the problem. All evidence to the contrary exists to prove otherwise, but it doesn't matter, deeper we go.

I am not going to bother engaging in a debate, I find it pointless and only frustrating. The answers an history to prove it are available for all to see, and yet it is still ignored, so nothing I say here will matter, and people will just continue to believe what they believe. Its as pointless as arguing religion.
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Shek

December 13, 2013, 12:53:03 am #20 Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 12:55:33 am by Shek
I don't want to be disrespectful and if you're frustrated by this debate I don't want to goad you on.  
But I really want to respond to a few points; feel free to ignore them, respond to them, or not even read them.

Quote from: ForeverZer0 on December 12, 2013, 11:04:43 pm
Capitalism is without refute the most successful system humanity has ever seen. Period.


And so was Feudalism before that, and despotism before that.  Human existence is a progression of methods of social organization.  I see us somewhere early in the timeline of these methods.  Thinking that Capitalism will continue forever is as unrealistic as thinking that tribal shamanic hegemony would continue forever.

Quote from: ForeverZer0 on December 12, 2013, 11:04:43 pm
Human beings are flawed, therefore a system that is all about equality and selflessness will always fail.


Capitalism and the free market makes the assumption that everyone will play by the rules.  If people don't (i.e. bankers, stockbrokers, regulators, legislators, taxpayers, corporations) the system erodes and fails to fully perform its function.  Hence the fact that we are hit by recession after recession, we pollute the planet terribly, legislators can be bought and sold - and the policies they espouse seldom represent the bulk of their constituents, over 20% of children in the U.S. go to bed each night malnourished and hungry...

Quote from: ForeverZer0 on December 12, 2013, 11:04:43 pm
Human beings are not selfless, and as far as "deserving of money", not equal in the slightest degree.


All human beings don't have to be selfless for us to live in an egalitarian society.  It's very difficult to be a decent human being if your basic needs of shelter, food, and companionship, are not being met.  No one is claiming that all human beings "deserve money", but because our level of technology is easily capable of providing all humans with their basic needs, logically it is in our best interest as a species, to meet the needs of everyone.  We don't need to just hand out money to everyone, we just need to provide them with food, shelter, and the opportunity to meet their full human potential.  It's easy to go to a slum, get mugged, and say that the people there are shitty people.  The fact is they are desperate, and their needs aren't being met, they are undereducated, and angry.

Quote from: ForeverZer0 on December 12, 2013, 11:04:43 pm
The answers an history to prove it are available for all to see, and yet it is still ignored, so nothing I say here will matter, and people will just continue to believe what they believe. Its as pointless as arguing religion.


It is easy to read history selectively to support your thesis.  Assuming that a completely objective reality exists,  I honestly don't know if I personally have drawn a conclusion from my studies that is close to that reality.  That being said, history has shown ad infinitum that capitalism leads to the exploitation of many for the benefit of the few.  The pursuit of wealth has been perhaps the most destructive force in the history of civilization.  Think about the Slave Trade, the complete raping of central America by the conquistadors, the genocide of the American Indians, and the recent sub-prime mortgage induced economic collapse.  
The advancements in human being's quality of living are not due to capitalism, but are due to advances in technology.  Refrigeration, Vaccines, Electricity, do not depend upon capitalism to exist.  You could possibly convince me that capitalism motivated researches to discover these marvels, but you could not then convince me that we now need capitalism to maintain them.  


Alright I've exhausted my arsenal of responses for now; hopefully someone else will take up the torch and defend the prospect of humans having the potential to be truly civilized.

ForeverZer0

Quote from: Shek on December 13, 2013, 12:53:03 am
I don't want to be disrespectful and if you're frustrated by this debate I don't want to goad you on. 


No disrespect is taken, I respect everyone's right to their own opinion. I just mean I don't want to get deeply involved trying to convince anyone or engage in a debate about the matter. When it comes to politics and religion, no one ever budges on their original belief, so "why bother?" is my opinion of them anymore. I don't see the sense of wasting my mental energy and nerves in an attempt to be heard by deaf ears, and I am no different. I appreciate your intelligent and respectful response, I realize that my opinion is not the common one, but I will admit right now, due to my own personal life experience, my own insights on humanity, and what I believe to be commonsense, I will not change my mind on the matter.  This is one particular subject that I will be truly close-minded on, and I am 100% sure in my own mind that my opinion is the correct one.  I do have my reasons, I just choose not to waste my time nor that of others explaining them, so I agree to disagree and let it end at that for myself.
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@ForeverZer0: You are actually contradicting yourself. If "greed" IS an inevitable part of humanity, then both you and me are greedy as well. You are not completely wrong either, though. I'd rather say that greed is a part of our current society. If the US is more greedy than the rest of the world, this can only be because they were taught to be greedy since their genetics couldn't have change that much in a few hundred years from us Europeans. Basically what Shek said.

@Shek: Actually Europe is already on its way to recovery. There are still a few countries with problems, but generally things are getting better. You noticed well that the southern and eastern countries are very monetary-centered. I used to live in Germany for 9 years when I was a kid and the mentality there is significantly different than here in Croatia.

QuoteMillions of people work, and plan just as hard as they do, and never get rich, and it's because of the reality of their circumstances


I agree with this part, but it's not the circumstances that prevent people from getting rich and successful. The core problem are their beliefs that they can't do it and the fact that they don't take risks (e.g. working on something for a year with a questionable success chance).

@F0 (again): Socialism has not failed, because it's a bad system. It has failed, because it was introduced at the wrong time. If the people are bitter and selfish from previous problems, a socialistic regime is doomed to fail, because their way of thinking is incorrect. And you can't change someone's beliefs over night. It's easier to teach a new generation better values that trying to change the older ones.

I agree that it may be pointless to debate this topic, but I disagree that the reason is because it has failed before. Every successful person knows that it doesn't go "success or failure", but "failure, then failure, then failure, then failure, then failure, then failure, then failure, then failure and eventually success". Maybe it will not happen in our lifetime, maybe it will never happen. But I do believe that people can change. I do believe that newer generations can succeed if they are taught the right values and beliefs.

I agree with Shek that the idea of this new social system is to provide food, shelter and some other basic needs to humans. it's not a utopian system.

Quote from: ForeverZer0 on December 13, 2013, 01:41:46 am
No disrespect is taken, I respect everyone's right to their own opinion. I just mean I don't want to get deeply involved trying to convince anyone or engage in a debate about the matter. When it comes to politics and religion, no one ever budges on their original belief, so "why bother?" is my opinion of them anymore. I don't see the sense of wasting my mental energy and nerves in an attempt to be heard by deaf ears, and I am no different. I appreciate your intelligent and respectful response, I realize that my opinion is not the common one, but I will admit right now, due to my own personal life experience, my own insights on humanity, and what I believe to be commonsense, I will not change my mind on the matter.  This is one particular subject that I will be truly close-minded on, and I am 100% sure in my own mind that my opinion is the correct one.  I do have my reasons, I just choose not to waste my time nor that of others explaining them, so I agree to disagree and let it end at that for myself.


I just wanted to add here that your experiences differ from mine. I know that you've had a hard past and I understand why you are feeling and thinking the way you do. From my own experience people are just trying to find happiness. But without direction and any guidance, it's easy to get lost and do "bad" things. Being surrounded by people like that naturally makes you feel that everyone is like that over time.
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