Economics, money, and the woes of the world

Started by PhoenixFire, December 06, 2013, 03:32:10 pm

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Shek

December 13, 2013, 12:53:03 am #20 Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 12:55:33 am by Shek
I don't want to be disrespectful and if you're frustrated by this debate I don't want to goad you on.  
But I really want to respond to a few points; feel free to ignore them, respond to them, or not even read them.

Quote from: ForeverZer0 on December 12, 2013, 11:04:43 pm
Capitalism is without refute the most successful system humanity has ever seen. Period.


And so was Feudalism before that, and despotism before that.  Human existence is a progression of methods of social organization.  I see us somewhere early in the timeline of these methods.  Thinking that Capitalism will continue forever is as unrealistic as thinking that tribal shamanic hegemony would continue forever.

Quote from: ForeverZer0 on December 12, 2013, 11:04:43 pm
Human beings are flawed, therefore a system that is all about equality and selflessness will always fail.


Capitalism and the free market makes the assumption that everyone will play by the rules.  If people don't (i.e. bankers, stockbrokers, regulators, legislators, taxpayers, corporations) the system erodes and fails to fully perform its function.  Hence the fact that we are hit by recession after recession, we pollute the planet terribly, legislators can be bought and sold - and the policies they espouse seldom represent the bulk of their constituents, over 20% of children in the U.S. go to bed each night malnourished and hungry...

Quote from: ForeverZer0 on December 12, 2013, 11:04:43 pm
Human beings are not selfless, and as far as "deserving of money", not equal in the slightest degree.


All human beings don't have to be selfless for us to live in an egalitarian society.  It's very difficult to be a decent human being if your basic needs of shelter, food, and companionship, are not being met.  No one is claiming that all human beings "deserve money", but because our level of technology is easily capable of providing all humans with their basic needs, logically it is in our best interest as a species, to meet the needs of everyone.  We don't need to just hand out money to everyone, we just need to provide them with food, shelter, and the opportunity to meet their full human potential.  It's easy to go to a slum, get mugged, and say that the people there are shitty people.  The fact is they are desperate, and their needs aren't being met, they are undereducated, and angry.

Quote from: ForeverZer0 on December 12, 2013, 11:04:43 pm
The answers an history to prove it are available for all to see, and yet it is still ignored, so nothing I say here will matter, and people will just continue to believe what they believe. Its as pointless as arguing religion.


It is easy to read history selectively to support your thesis.  Assuming that a completely objective reality exists,  I honestly don't know if I personally have drawn a conclusion from my studies that is close to that reality.  That being said, history has shown ad infinitum that capitalism leads to the exploitation of many for the benefit of the few.  The pursuit of wealth has been perhaps the most destructive force in the history of civilization.  Think about the Slave Trade, the complete raping of central America by the conquistadors, the genocide of the American Indians, and the recent sub-prime mortgage induced economic collapse.  
The advancements in human being's quality of living are not due to capitalism, but are due to advances in technology.  Refrigeration, Vaccines, Electricity, do not depend upon capitalism to exist.  You could possibly convince me that capitalism motivated researches to discover these marvels, but you could not then convince me that we now need capitalism to maintain them.  


Alright I've exhausted my arsenal of responses for now; hopefully someone else will take up the torch and defend the prospect of humans having the potential to be truly civilized.

ForeverZer0

Quote from: Shek on December 13, 2013, 12:53:03 am
I don't want to be disrespectful and if you're frustrated by this debate I don't want to goad you on. 


No disrespect is taken, I respect everyone's right to their own opinion. I just mean I don't want to get deeply involved trying to convince anyone or engage in a debate about the matter. When it comes to politics and religion, no one ever budges on their original belief, so "why bother?" is my opinion of them anymore. I don't see the sense of wasting my mental energy and nerves in an attempt to be heard by deaf ears, and I am no different. I appreciate your intelligent and respectful response, I realize that my opinion is not the common one, but I will admit right now, due to my own personal life experience, my own insights on humanity, and what I believe to be commonsense, I will not change my mind on the matter.  This is one particular subject that I will be truly close-minded on, and I am 100% sure in my own mind that my opinion is the correct one.  I do have my reasons, I just choose not to waste my time nor that of others explaining them, so I agree to disagree and let it end at that for myself.
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@ForeverZer0: You are actually contradicting yourself. If "greed" IS an inevitable part of humanity, then both you and me are greedy as well. You are not completely wrong either, though. I'd rather say that greed is a part of our current society. If the US is more greedy than the rest of the world, this can only be because they were taught to be greedy since their genetics couldn't have change that much in a few hundred years from us Europeans. Basically what Shek said.

@Shek: Actually Europe is already on its way to recovery. There are still a few countries with problems, but generally things are getting better. You noticed well that the southern and eastern countries are very monetary-centered. I used to live in Germany for 9 years when I was a kid and the mentality there is significantly different than here in Croatia.

QuoteMillions of people work, and plan just as hard as they do, and never get rich, and it's because of the reality of their circumstances


I agree with this part, but it's not the circumstances that prevent people from getting rich and successful. The core problem are their beliefs that they can't do it and the fact that they don't take risks (e.g. working on something for a year with a questionable success chance).

@F0 (again): Socialism has not failed, because it's a bad system. It has failed, because it was introduced at the wrong time. If the people are bitter and selfish from previous problems, a socialistic regime is doomed to fail, because their way of thinking is incorrect. And you can't change someone's beliefs over night. It's easier to teach a new generation better values that trying to change the older ones.

I agree that it may be pointless to debate this topic, but I disagree that the reason is because it has failed before. Every successful person knows that it doesn't go "success or failure", but "failure, then failure, then failure, then failure, then failure, then failure, then failure, then failure and eventually success". Maybe it will not happen in our lifetime, maybe it will never happen. But I do believe that people can change. I do believe that newer generations can succeed if they are taught the right values and beliefs.

I agree with Shek that the idea of this new social system is to provide food, shelter and some other basic needs to humans. it's not a utopian system.

Quote from: ForeverZer0 on December 13, 2013, 01:41:46 am
No disrespect is taken, I respect everyone's right to their own opinion. I just mean I don't want to get deeply involved trying to convince anyone or engage in a debate about the matter. When it comes to politics and religion, no one ever budges on their original belief, so "why bother?" is my opinion of them anymore. I don't see the sense of wasting my mental energy and nerves in an attempt to be heard by deaf ears, and I am no different. I appreciate your intelligent and respectful response, I realize that my opinion is not the common one, but I will admit right now, due to my own personal life experience, my own insights on humanity, and what I believe to be commonsense, I will not change my mind on the matter.  This is one particular subject that I will be truly close-minded on, and I am 100% sure in my own mind that my opinion is the correct one.  I do have my reasons, I just choose not to waste my time nor that of others explaining them, so I agree to disagree and let it end at that for myself.


I just wanted to add here that your experiences differ from mine. I know that you've had a hard past and I understand why you are feeling and thinking the way you do. From my own experience people are just trying to find happiness. But without direction and any guidance, it's easy to get lost and do "bad" things. Being surrounded by people like that naturally makes you feel that everyone is like that over time.
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