Dishonesty (split thread)

Started by Heretic86, April 25, 2014, 07:49:00 pm

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(Split thread from "Is this the world you though it was?" thread.)

Quote from: Blizzard on April 22, 2014, 04:01:47 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on April 22, 2014, 03:22:26 am
The rich can get rich by either honest or dishonest.  Truth is, both forms exist.  Problem is, those that are dishonest are very rarely ever held accountable for their actions.

Why else would a person running for office spend more on a campaign than they would stand to earn from that position?  Many abuse the powers of the offices they are elected to in an effort to legalize only their form of theft.  Legal?  Yes.  Dishonest?  Absolutely.

Law != Honesty

And you know all this by thorough investigation and actually talking to people who are involved?

Quote from: Blizzard on April 25, 2014, 01:14:11 am
Who said anything about politicians? You are twisting my words. I said rich and successful, businessmen that worked their asses off to get where they are today. I am not even talking about rich kids who inherited their wealth. You entirely disregarded my question and took it out of context by applying it only to politicians.

Sorry, I though I did answer. 

Yes, I have done my homework, and still try to do even more homework.  Politicians are already addressed.  I didnt mean to take it out of context, so on to sucessful businessmen.  Many normal businessmen I dont believe are thieves.  Ones that offer products, or apply skills.  Mechanics.  Dentists.  Tradesmen.  The ones I dont think are honest are the Wall St business tycoons.  Of that sub-group, its not so much the traders or investments, but the Bankers that I feel are the dishonest ones.  Bankers are considered to be businesses, but the way they operate is as far from honest as any individual or group can become.  Their actions are considered legal, however I dont think they are moral.  Understanding why I feel this way needs a common ground understanding on the way that Banks operate.  But I also dont want to derail the thread from the original topic too much.  So to stay to the point, the way that Banks really work and what I used to think was the way that Banks work turned out to be very very different.  I plugged Politicians because of how closely Business and Politics are tied together, but it wasnt intended to take out of context.  Here, I see a lot of business owners try to get into Politics because there is opportunity for them to make changes to the law that benefits them personally.  Dick Cheney and Haliburton for example.  Multi billion dollar industry there. 

There is dishonesty in business practicess, but not everywhere at all times.  Jiffy Lube, for example, has been accused numerous times of selling unnecessary services and repairs in order to "upsell" services that were requested.  "Do you want fries with that" is also an "upsell", and sure, there may be psychology, marketing, and other influencing factors, but upselling a Burger to a Meal Deal isnt dishonest.  Charging a customer for a meal and not providing the product they paid for I believe is dishonest.  Changing your oil (requested), then telling you that you need to replace your transmission (when there is NOTHING wrong with it), however I do consider to be dishonest.  There are many forms of this type of dishonesty also.  Charging women more for car repairs I believe to be dishonest.  Studies have been done.  Faulty fuses were purposefully put into cars windshield washer fuse ports and taken in to the same business.  Men were told it was just a fuse, many times, no cost to repair.  Women on the other hand were told that they needed to replace the entire washer control unit, and because the repair was in the steering column, most with airbags, that the repair would be in excess of $500 bucks.  The study was simulated by MAJOR Media outlets.  Prior to visiting those places of business, they spent money to have a mechanic purposefully create the controlled fuse problem in two vehicles.  The vehicles were also serviced several weeks apart, but both recorded on hidden camera.  The results were apphauling.  Men were not charged, women were dragged over the coals.  However, not every Jiffy Lube did this.

To me, this type of dishonesty is far too common.  It is different than other types of dishonesty where violence is used to take away something from a victim, because in cases like this, the victim is unaware they are being taken advantage of.  That example is one of exploitatin, and is more difficult to prove.  Unfortunately it happens all the time.  People are told that their air conditioner units need a Coolant Recharge.  Hidden cameras reveal that their AC units not only did not need a recharge, but customers were billed for the service, and no recharge was performed.

Many successful businessmen do bust their asses.  Some do not.  Once they own a business, they do very little work and expect high returns from minimal effort.  This I dont believe to be dishonest.  Many business owners put in tremendous time an effort to start the busines.  Once the business is established and enough profit comes in to hire employees, that workload on the owner decreases.  The Jiffy Lube example typically places the blame of dishonesty on the employee instead of the business itself.  The employees are told to "upsell" as much as possible.  Many also do not benefit from upselling on the unnecessary services, except that they can keep their jobs.  Since the business is the one that profits from selling what is not needed, and instruction to upsell comes from the top, I have to ask myself at what point does the instruction to upsell go from honest to dishonest?  Selling services that are needed is honest.  Looking for those services that can be provided is also honest.  Is it the employee that caused the dishonesty?  Is the employee absolved of that guilt by "just following orders"?  What if the employee is fired for failure to upsell?  Were they truly bad employees to begin with?  Or were they reacting in order to keep their jobs?  The dishonesty issue isnt cut and dry as many might think.

Hopefully all this sufficiently answers your initial question.  The scope of my reply may be just too large and overly generalized.  If I didnt answer, or took something out of context that wasnt intended, explain my failure to interpret and I'll try to answer entirely.
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