Why Generation Y Yuppies are unhappy

Started by Blizzard, June 07, 2014, 02:10:45 pm

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Blizzard

A really great article. I only disagree with the concept of happiness presented there (happiness is not a destination, it's the journey to becoming awesome), but everything else is pretty much spot on.

https://thinkfast.quora.com/Why-Generation-Y-Yuppies-Are-Unhappy
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

winkio

I completely disagree with everything in this article.  It sets Generation Y up as a bunch of entitled idiots unable to cope with reality, thinking they are the only ones having a tough time.

First, numerous social media outlets have proven that this generation knows that they are all getting screwed over (facebook, reddit, etc.).  A large number of young people are very aware of social issues ranging from dwindling social security to environmental deregulation to discrimination against young employees (requiring numerous years of experience), and are very expressive of their anger and frustration.  They do not look at their peers with jealousy, but with sympathy.

Second, this generation actually is somewhat special compared to older generations.  Besides having the innate skills needed to work with new technology that older generations lack, most of them also have a considerably deeper and more rigorous education, due to the introduction of new teaching tools as well as an additional 20-30 years of knowledge/research.  Even without experience, this generation is far from useless, and individuals have a lot more potential than they are given credit for.

Third, the central problem faced by this generation is not a lack of realistic expectations, but a lack of opportunities.  The primary cause of unhappiness isn't that people haven't achieved their dreams, but that they see no opportunities in which to chase those dreams.  As Blizzard said, happiness is the journey, not the destination, but many young people find their journey blocked at every avenue.  As the article says, the baby boomers had they previous generation's support behind them, opening up opportunities for personal and financial success.  On the other hand, Generation Y is heavily discriminated against by older generations, and has very few opportunities to find a lasting career, join management, or create a startup company.

I could go on and on, but the thing that gets me about these articles is that they are telling unhappy people to stop being unhappy, like it's just flipping a switch.  Who goes up to a depressed person and says "cheer up bro, just stop being sad it's your own damn fault."  Assholes, that's who.

Blizzard

June 07, 2014, 05:12:36 pm #2 Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 05:20:40 pm by Blizzard
Quote from: winkio on June 07, 2014, 03:30:03 pm
I completely disagree with everything in this article.  It sets Generation Y up as a bunch of entitled idiots unable to cope with reality, thinking they are the only ones having a tough time.


Nah. It seemed more like setting Gen Y up as a bit spoiled. And I agree with this since there is a rising trend with it. Every year's generation is just a little bit more spoiled than the previous one. I'd say a 4-year difference is enough to notice it. People 4 years older than me seem more down to earth and people 4 years younger seem a bit more spoiled. Of course, I am just generalizing here and speaking from my own experiences.

Quote from: winkio on June 07, 2014, 03:30:03 pm
First, numerous social media outlets have proven that this generation knows that they are all getting screwed over (facebook, reddit, etc.).  A large number of young people are very aware of social issues ranging from dwindling social security to environmental deregulation to discrimination against young employees (requiring numerous years of experience), and are very expressive of their anger and frustration.  They do not look at their peers with jealousy, but with sympathy.


It feels more like people just keep complaining. If there was really such a serious issue, why isn't anybody doing anything? People are big with words, but when it's time to take action, their voices suddenly fall silent and the deux ex machina excuse is that "they can't do anything about it" which is basically translated as "no, I'm actually comfortable enough not to do anything, I just feel entitled that I should have it better, because all those celebrities and millionaires do". Don't mistake the habit of complaining for frustration. I'm not saying there isn't any frustration or anger, but people like to blow things out of proportion, especially if they can get sympathy for being the victim. Honestly, this trend of everybody acting like a victim is troubling me a bit.

Quote from: winkio on June 07, 2014, 03:30:03 pm
Third, the central problem faced by this generation is not a lack of realistic expectations, but a lack of opportunities.  The primary cause of unhappiness isn't that people haven't achieved their dreams, but that they see no opportunities in which to chase those dreams.  As Blizzard said, happiness is the journey, not the destination, but many young people find their journey blocked at every avenue. As the article says, the baby boomers had they previous generation's support behind them, opening up opportunities for personal and financial success.  On the other hand, Generation Y is heavily discriminated against by older generations, and has very few opportunities to find a lasting career, join management, or create a startup company.


I disagree partially. Yes, Gen Y does get discriminated. But especially since the rise of the Internet, there are so many opportunities out there that it's ridiculous. It's much easier to look for "classic" jobs and there are so many new areas and job types. I think that people don't realize it that we are in the middle of the golden age of opportunity. As you mentioned, we have education, technology and everything is connected. But none of this means anything unless you work hard for it. Even though things are easier than 50 years ago, this doesn't change the fact that you have to work for it. And now more than ever people find excuses not to work hard. They act like frustrated victims, how the world treats them unfairly and all that stuff. No one says "Yeah, I deserved this life, because I was a lazy piece of shit. When I get home, I just sit in front of the TV rather than being productive or trying to maybe get something started on my own". No, everybody just keeps complaining and blaming everybody else (parents, video games, TV, the government, society, whatever). They won't take responsibility for their own lives.

The main problem with opportunities isn't their lack. The problem is that people willingly close their eyes towards opportunities, because they equate opportunity with work and they don't want to work more (yet again that problem with entitlement). They make up excuses not to even try. And the human mind is horrifyingly good at lying to oneself just to protect one's self-image.

Quote from: winkio on June 07, 2014, 03:30:03 pm
Second, this generation actually is somewhat special compared to older generations.  Besides having the innate skills needed to work with new technology that older generations lack, most of them also have a considerably deeper and more rigorous education, due to the introduction of new teaching tools as well as an additional 20-30 years of knowledge/research.  Even without experience, this generation is far from useless, and individuals have a lot more potential than they are given credit for.


This actually validates my point above. It's not that this generation is useless. Heck, even the article says that people can get pretty far off in life. The problem is their perception. They don't realize how well they are doing so they think that their life sucks. People take way too much stuff for granted. And I can't blame them. If you live your entirely life in a society where electricity, food, water, cars, Internet, technology, etc. are at an abundance, it's just natural that you not tend to look at these things and say "yeah, this is pretty good" since you've never seen/experienced a worse reality.

Quote from: winkio on June 07, 2014, 03:30:03 pm
I could go on and on, but the thing that gets me about these articles is that they are telling unhappy people to stop being unhappy, like it's just flipping a switch.  Who goes up to a depressed person and says "cheer up bro, just stop being sad it's your own damn fault."  Assholes, that's who.


I disagree. At the very end they do say that you have to work for your happiness. It's not an instant thing.

EDIT: Just to be clear where I'm coming from and why I'm having this opinion. I've been there, I've done that. While you're in that frame of mind, you will probably notice that everybody seems to be in the same position as you. But if you can break free from it and stop doing this stuff (complaining, making up excuses not to take action, being the victim, etc.), you will realize that everybody else is still doing it and there's nothing you can do about it. They don't want to stop. Their little bubble is just comfortable enough not to take any risks. I always liked the matrix analogy here where you can see the shit that's going on, because you used to be part of it and people can't see it, because they can't see themselves objectively.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Ryex

June 07, 2014, 10:04:56 pm #3 Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 12:29:43 am by Ryex
Odd. I'm going to simultaneously disagrees with both of you and the article and agree with at least one point form each of you and the article.

First I want to clarify some things I consider to be true. Generation Y or the "Millennials" Grew up during the transition form the industrial to the information age, the dawn of the computer, the post war era (because the cold war had finally well and truly ended, the last remains of the two world wars), the first generation to grow up with computers. Generation Z or the "post-millennials" as some like to call them are the first generation to grow up with personal computers computers. I was born in 92 and while that is technically generation Y I would consider myself more generation Z.

That article has one point I will agree with, well, two. One, generation Y did grow up being told they were special snowflakes, but I think most of them figured out it was utter bullocks. Two, for the most part Generation Y is unhappy with the state of the world; not because we are deluded, but because our parents (or rather the previous generation) screwed up, and we know it.

See, the Baby Boomers didn't grow up in the transition to the Information Age, that had it throw at then with unstoppable force in their adult lives. They were unprepared and unequipped to adapt to the changing world. Well perhaps that's a bit harsh, they did adapt, but they did it with the emotional and economic tools and life skills they already had, and those tools while capable had some side effects. Cooperations, the only current entirety capable of fronting the capital necessary for industrial investment on the scale the information age demanded, were already in pace and quickly ceased opportunists to grow having the. A company does not have emotion, it exists for the sole purpose of making it's investors more money and that what happened. The technology of the information age gave them opportunities and monetary capital ceased them.

But I digress form my point. The Baby boomers grow up being told that hard work would pave the way and every bit of success gained was theirs for the taking, that they deserved every bit of the dream they could hold in their hands, if they only worked hard enough. So they worked hard, did the job right even if the hated it, even if they would be stuck with it forever, worked for the financial security their parents told them was waiting. The boomers had and have an impressive and admirable work ethic instilled by their parents. The dawn of a new age brought on by their hard work brought with it golden opportunity. but no one could of foreseen the Dangers. when your an entity incapable of true emotion, moving forward on mindless paperwork it's easy for hundreds of small inconsequential decisions to be made because they will "improve performance" that lead to massive companies like Walmart and Monsanto that treat employees and customers alike as targets to be fleeced for all they have and do it legally.

With the dawn of the credit card and easy access to money you hadn't earned yet they faced yet another challenge, financial responsibility. The boomers had an unquestionable faith that every year they would work hard and their success would grow, that faith was confounded by the ever growing economy that road the dawn of the information age and the boom of the4 stock market.. As such it easy to see how they could justify using credit to buy things they could not afford yet. "That nice house and white picket fence? I'll be able to pay that off 30 years form now, nothing will happen to my security between now and then. My retirement pension I'll invest it in a 401k instead then I'll be even better off." WE all know what happened, The housing bubble that grew because everyone was buying their houses on extended loans with supper low interest? that was compounded by the unshakable faith in the ever improving future that causes home equity to skyrocket? it burst, along with a whole lot of other securities interest and we entered the great recession. The boomers saw their security starting to disappear well before it happened but instead of backing off and living more modestly. they refused to let their lifestyle slacken in their old age and poured mountains of effort into strengthening social security placing the burden, perhaps unintentionally, of their ever increasing health care (a by product of the advances they made in medical tech that increased their lifespans) on the government, forcing deficit spending, and building the national debt to it's current 17.5 trillion, almost 2 trillion more than the US GDP. and it's not JUST the US, Europe the rest of the 1st world had the same problem.

The result is a generation that had more opportunity and intelligence than they had foresight. They had it good, had kids and told then them world was awesome, that they could be anything. Then in an effort to make enough money to ensure that the world would stay awesome, perhaps thinking it would carry over for their kids without doing the math, fucked up. Those kids, Generation Y, saw the world change before their eyes, it went from a magical world of possibilities to an abysmal world that seems to be on the verge of tearing itself apart with extreme excesses. The rich got richer by roughly 30% and the pore got poorer by %50, the middle class is disappearing rapidly. The world is one where the power of information trumps the power of industrial effort. It a "Who and What you know that others don't" world now not the "Work hard, educate yourself, and take the inevitable opportunity" world our parents grew up in. And we know fear, fear for our immediate future, the worst kind.

Winkio's point about lack of opportunities? complacently valid. Blizz I don't think you realize how lucky you were to get in with a good company while you were still in school. Me? I'm shit out of luck I go looking for an opportunity like an internship or ANYTHING that could advance my career and I'm instantly laughed away "1.4 GPA?" they say, "we have an mandatory cut off of a 3.5", "but look at all the cool things I have done!" I say, "meh, if you had the gpa to back it up they would be impressive." and I'm sent away in shame. True I share blame in that,  I spent a good deal of my first years in college board out of my mind with the material so I procrastinated and my performance suffered. but lets look at that GPA requirement shall we? 3.5 3/4 of the way to perfect. Every class I've ever been in the final grades were curved so that the average student got about a c+ than means on average a student gets a 2.25 GPA. A 3.5 is something only a truly determined student can achieve, the type of determination you get from actually knowing exactly what you want to do with you life.  No, real opportunity that gets you a fulfilling career is only given to those who are "special" minorities, exemplary people, people who have already proven themselves, the top 20% of those who try. For the rest of us opportunity is a 7-5 job paying just above minimum wage, and even that is hard to come by. Case in point it took over 2 WEEKS for the place I'[m working for now to hire me AFTER I had accepted the offer of employment. because of a rigorous hiring process that required a criminal background check that couldn't even revival more than one speeding ticket with out recending the offer. and I had already worked for this pace for the last two summers.

But none of this has to do with personal happiness. One can be absolutely disgusted with the state of the world as I am and still be personally happy. It's a matter of scale and what you consider important. For me all that required for me to be happy is a small sense of security about the future, that I can keep going, and personal connections. If I have friends and family I can come home to I can't stay depressed or frustrated with the world.
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winkio

Quote from: Blizzard on June 07, 2014, 05:12:36 pm
But especially since the rise of the Internet, there are so many opportunities out there that it's ridiculous. It's much easier to look for "classic" jobs and there are so many new areas and job types. I think that people don't realize it that we are in the middle of the golden age of opportunity.


Just because it's easier to find opportunities doesn't mean that there are more out there.  In fact, it makes them even harder to get, as employers have a larger pool of applicants to choose from and can select those with the most experience, highest GPA, etc.

My earlier post does not describe the GenY mindset as one that I currently hold, but rather one that I think I understand.  I had no real problem getting a job, and I have had plenty of opportunities in my life, with very little discrimination, so I can't really sell myself as a victim.  But when I see people talking about this stuff on numerous places around the internet, I don't dismiss it as whining and complaining that results from a bad attitude.  I know that many people have it worse than me, and the answer to their problems is not the same as the answer to mine.

Blizzard

June 08, 2014, 06:23:50 am #5 Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 06:35:30 am by Blizzard
No, no, I don't mean that there aren't people who have it bad. I'm saying that a lot of people who aren't that bad off, but still keep complaining. And often when an opportunity comes their way to change and/or improve their life, they make excuses not to take it.

@Ryex: You got into the New Mexico Tech, didn't you? Are you saying that this wasn't an opportunity? I don't disagree that the world is harsh most of them time, but it's sometimes difficult to see where something is leading when you're still on the path.

An example about opportunity. In our country we had two recessions in the past years. Apparently it's now over, but the number of unemployed people is still growing and we have an unemployment percentage among the highest in Europe. My mom lost her job in January. In a shitty economy like this, she did find another job. Everybody in the entire country keeps complaining how there are no jobs. Yet my mother found not only one, no, she found 2 jobs and turned the first one down, because it paid the minimum wage. That was 2 months ago. Sure, she was 3 months without a job. Of course that's not a good thing. But what's special about my mom? Nothing. The only difference is that she kept looking vigorously for a new job instead of sitting at home, watching TV and blaming the government for everything. (I'm not saying it's not our government's fault, but being a lazy ass and just complaining gets us nowhere.)

But my point is actually an entirely different one. My point is that it's not just "hard work" that's important, it's also important what kind of work. If you "work hard" as a gardener, of course there is a limit to how far you can get. But if you just work as a gardener and in your free time you try to learn how to get a successful online business running to start your own company, that's an entirely different thing. Sure, the online market is getting more and more competitive. But 20 years ago there wasn't even such a thing. Or you could start a gardener pimping business. Find people who will do gardening and find people who need gardening done. Take a percentage of the earnings and if you grow enough, maybe you can start a business.

Quote from: Ryex on June 07, 2014, 10:04:56 pm
Winkio's point about lack of opportunities? complacently valid. Blizz I don't think you realize how lucky you were to get in with a good company while you were still in school. Me? I'm shit out of luck I go looking for an opportunity like an internship or ANYTHING that could advance my carrier and I'm instantly laughed away "1.4 GPA?" they say, "we have an mandatory cut off of a 3.5", "but look at all the cool things I have done!" I say, "meh, if you had the gpa to back it up they would be impressive." and I'm sent away in shame.


I think you are approaching the entire thing completely wrong. If their response is "meh, if you had the gpa to back it up they would be impressive.", then yours should be "Why? Because I know my priorities rather than waste time on learning nothing about everything? Because I specialize in what I want to do and do it well? Because I care more about having a skill that I can apply in a future career than just learn all the stuff they say in class and forget it a month later? Because I think it's more important to create new value than just please my teachers with the tasks they come up with? Excuse my language, but my job is doing XYZ, not being a prostitute." Ok, I may have gone over the top with the prostitute comment.

Quote from: Ryex on June 07, 2014, 10:04:56 pm
True I share blame in that,  I spent a good deal of my first years in college board out of my mind with the material so I procrastinated and my performance suffered.


Which exactly validates my point. But at least you understand that you did a mistake. That way you can avoid it in the future.
We all make mistakes and we all sometimes blame others for our own mistakes. That's normal. The important thing is that we understand that and take things from there.

Quote from: Ryex on June 07, 2014, 10:04:56 pm
but lets look at that GPA requirement shale we? 3.5 3/4 of the way to perfect. Every class I've ever been in the final grades were curved so that the average student got about a c+ than means on average a student gets a 2.25 GPA. A 3.5 is something only a truly determined student can acheave, the type of determination you get from actually knowing exactly what you want to do with you life.


I agree that 3.5 is way too high. But 3.5 isn't carved in stone. You can't judge everybody by the same standards of a flawed school system and companies know that. If an exceptional individual comes along, companies do consider employing them. With exceptional I don't mean "special", I mean "different". If you have somebody who's really passionate and dedicated, but just not dedicated in school, interviewers pick up on that.

Quote from: Ryex on June 07, 2014, 10:04:56 pm
No, real opportunity that gets you a fulfilling career is only given to thous who are "special" minorities, exemplary people, people who have already proven themselves, the top 20% of those who try. For the rest of us opportunity is a 7-5 job paying just above minimum wage, and even that is hard to come by. Case in point it took over 2 WEEKS for the place I'[m working for now to hire me AFTER I had accepted the offer of employment. because of a rigorous hiring process that required a criminal background check that couldn't even revival more than one speeding ticket with out recending the offer. and I had already worked for this pace for the last two summers.


Then become one of the top 20%. The rest is the rest because they choose to be the rest. With the Internet you have so much opportunity and knowledge at your disposal that it's ridiculous.

Example: You are looking for a certain job in a certain field? Use the Internet to make a list of companies that work in this of field, find out if they are hiring and contact them (or contact them to find out if they are hiring in the first place, lol).

Another example: You want a better job in the tech industry? What about Japan, how are they doing? Good? Ok, but you don't speak Japanese. No problem, use the Internet. There are online courses or you can find and download tapes or whatever. There are ways to learn Japanese without spending a dime. All you need is some time. It's not gonna be easy, but it can be done. You have that option available at all times. Tell me that this is not an opportunity that is dangling there at all times. For the rest of the process of finding a job in Japan, take the previous example.

And another one: Or maybe you are interested in sales. Let's say you want to get a web shop running and make a small company from that. Do you have a niche market or product? If yes, great, that will make things a bit easier along the road. If not, just try to find something that is profitable enough. How? Use the Internet. Google, search, research. Find out the whens, whats, hows. Educate yourself. Then start calling up the manufacturers for products and who would be interested in having their product available in your web shop. Maybe a PC parts web shop would be a great idea. And since it's a web shop, you don't even need to rent out space for the wares.

Yet another example: You love programming, but you don't really have what it takes to work on big projects, because you get easily bored? No problem, just register on multiple freelancer programmer websites and get started. Yet again the Internet is there for you. You can make a living off that. Sure, there's no retirement plan, but you could still do a private one at a bank or something like that.

These are only simple examples and none of them existed 20 years ago. The information we have available in this age is vast, but people don't realize what they can do with it. I agree that greater opportunities are "given" to people who have already proven themselves. But that only means that you haven't proven yourself YET. (Even though you clearly said that it helped you get that job because you worked for the last 2 summers there, lol!) Still, neither of these affects the constant opportunities that are all around you all the time. Of course, it's easier to say "but yeaaaaaaaaaaah, learning Japanese is hard and I don't want to go live in Japan." It's valid excuse, I'm not saying it's not. But it's still an excuse.

Quote from: Ryex on June 07, 2014, 10:04:56 pm
But none of this has to do with personal happiness. One can be absolutely disgusted with the state of the world as I am and still be personally happy. It's a matter of scale and what you consider important. For me all that required for me to be happy is a small sense of security about the future, that I can keep going, and personal connections. If I have friends and family I can come home to I can't stay depressed or frustrated with the world.


I agree. These things don't really have to be connected. As a matter of fact, you don't even need outside things to be happy. Most people think happiness is just one thing away. "If I get this, I will be happy." Be it a job, a girlfriend, a car, doesn't matter. And they may feel good about it for a few months, but then they realize that nothing has changed. They still aren't "happy". So happiness doesn't even have to be a journey. It can also be a decision. And none of this means that there aren't multiple degrees of happiness. You can be happy with your life right now, but if you choose to take action, you can become more happy since you will have even more going for you. To be happy, you first have to accept the current state of things and then take it from there.




I am very well aware that I was lucky to come across Kreso and that I work now at Cateia. I'm not denying that. But what about Daygames? It was an opportunity as well. It was there at all times. We started with nothing. Each one of us worked on our games in their free time. Yesterday I realized that we probably broke even with King of Booze looking at the money we earned, the time we spent on it and some arbitrary salary we could have gotten for that time. It took us a year and a half, but we broke even (solely with KOB, not our other games). By our estimation we're 6 to max. 12 months away from actually founding a company. The only reason why we haven't done it yet is purely financial and since we didn't know where KOB would go. KOB was completely free for the first 6 months and a year ago we added in-game ads. We started making a bit of money. It was huge for us. But not as huge as iOS last October. We actually started earning some respectable amount. Sure, it isn't still enough for a living, but we're getting there. We just need one more game to take off properly to justify actually founding a company. KOB is a somewhat niche market, so we can't rely on repeating its success just like that. We have to use more "traditional" ways of marketing. If one game works out with these methods, it means that we might have a business and marketing model that works well enough that we can apply it to other games and grow.

How did we do this? We seized opportunities AND took risks, because each opportunity is usually also somewhat of a risk. e.g. A simple example while we still weren't earning any money. When we added the term "drinking game" directly into the title of King of Booze, our weekly downloads on Google Play went up by 30%. Each time we did something "right", the number of weekly downloads increase by about 30%. We recently paid somebody to "optimize" our title and keywords (2 weeks ago) on iOS and while it's still early to estimate how much our weekly downloads have increased because of that, I think that it will be around 20%-30% altogether. But this time our profit increases as well, because on iOS the game is paid. We also paid 3 Magic Shots about 2 months ago to do a campaign for KOB, but they fucked up and that means $300 down the drain for nothing. (We were able to turn it around recently and now they will do minor 3 campaigns for 3 of our free games, but still.)

See my point? You can say we are lucky all you want, but fact is that we have tried many things and only a few worked. This isn't luck, this is hard work. Success is working hard and seizing opportunities. Sometimes an opportunity is just sheer luck, but it's an opportunity nonetheless.

Opportunities are everywhere, but people don't want to see them. "Wait. If there are so many opportunities and it's possible to be successful... if the little man can be successful, if the little man can 'win'... That means that I've been a little bitch all this time! Noooooooooooooooo!" Acknowledging these opportunities means acknowledging failure to see them before and people don't like feeling like they have been under-performing this whole time. Because, you know, they are special.

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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Ryex

I edited my post, It's intention was to dispute that Generation Y in unhappy and assert that we are instead afraid and I think the edits make this more clear.
I no longer keep up with posts in the forum very well. If you have a question or comment, about my work, or in general I welcome PM's. if you make a post in one of my threads and I don't reply with in a day or two feel free to PM me and point it out to me.<br /><br />DropBox, the best free file syncing service there is.<br />

Blizzard

I agree with your points on financial security. I noticed that same trend in Croatia. People live on a month-to-month basis. They spend money that they don't have. When we have foreign visitors from other countries, they notice that. The problem here is that everybody wants to be rich and fancy and show off with money, even moreso than I noticed in other countries (e.g. Germany).
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Heretic86

Gen X and Y, at least in the US, are fully aware of how screwed they are.  Our unemployment rate here isnt at 6%, not even close.  Try 30%.  There are no jobs.  The remaining jobs have been cut down to part time only, thus, no health insurance, and with the decreased paycheck, its now either pay the rent, pay for food, or pay health insurance.

Its not that they feel entitled to anything, they just want an opportunity that no longer exists.
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Blizzard

As I said, the Internet provides lots of opportunity. People are just being lazy fucks.
Check out Daygames and our games:

King of Booze 2      King of Booze: Never Ever
Drinking Game for Android      Never have I ever for Android
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

ForeverZer0

I hardly blame unemployment on a lack of jobs, I believe people are lazy fucks. This generation sits around waiting for opportunities instead of making their own, and that is the bottom line. Our modern government caters to and rewards this behavior by attempting to create a nanny state, and here we are.

Since when has unemployment reached 30%?
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Blizzard

June 11, 2014, 02:12:08 pm #11 Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 02:13:34 pm by Blizzard
Exactly. There may not be that many great jobs around, but there are jobs. People are just being lazy and often they will rather stay at home than work at e.g. a Walmart, because they are too proud for that. There are as many ways people are shooting themselves in the foot as there are opportunities.
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Heretic86

I dont think there are very many opportunities short of dealing drugs in cities like Detroit.  People have a better chance of getting accepted at Harvard than they do of getting a job at Wal Mart.  Its not pride, its lack of opportunity.  And yes, unemployment is at 30%.  Every time someones unemployment runs out, they are no longer considered part of the work force which dramatically lowers that unemployment rate, because 6% sounds a lot better than 30% politically.
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Where are you getting that kind of information? Getting into Harvard being more likely than getting a job at Wal-Mart sounds very, very far-fetched. How many students were accepted into Harvard last year? How many new employees were hired in Wal-Mart last year (all hired minus all fired)? And where did you get the information that the unemployment rate is 30%? To me this sounds like somebody took into account people that can't work such as teenagers or elderly that are retired, but haven't reached the retirement age yet. Those are heavy arguments you are making. Everybody expects that you at least back them up.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Heretic86

I could point out all sorts of stats if you really want, it would just manage to derail the thread.  Point remains that Gen X&Y have seen their futures dry up, which is exactly my point as to why they (we) are unhappy.  Its not because theyre spoiled, its because the opportunities that existed for generations prior are gone.

Harvard:  Accepts about 4-5% of applicants.  Wal Mart hires about 1-2% of those that apply.  That should be a solid indication of how few other jobs there are when decently educated (non Harvard) people have no other places to apply for work at other than Wal Mart.  Trust me, its not because Wal Mart is such a great place to work, its because most of the other jobs are gone.

Stats that I could point links to wont convince you that the job market in the US has turned to shit, even tho it absolutely is.  There are barely any full time jobs.  Thanks to Obamacare (corpratized health coverage, IE, mandatory insurance with no care, not socialized health care either) most jobs here are now part time.  Theres also a big push to raise minimum wage.  Two sided coin.  A: employees would have enough to live on, barely.  B: due to increased pay, cant afford to keep as many employees, so many are laid off and let go.  Others will most likely be downgraded to part time.

The middle class jobs that come with a decent education, trade skills, or experience are gone.  There has been zero actual job growth in the US since 2008.  The result is a complete polarization of very very very high paying jobs (and only a few of them), and about the same number of minimum wage jobs.  The result of this is that everyone in the middle and at the bottom are now competing for those same jobs.  As a result, people with Masters Degrees (and an assload of debt) have no other choice than to apply at Wal Mart.  The number of bartenders and waitresses in this country with college degrees is staggering.  But the real problem is the debt that comes with it.  Working on a waitresses wages, one can not afford to make the payments on that education, and that debt does not go away even with bankruptcy.  Typical college educations cost at least as much as a house, but most of the time, much much more.  The number of student loans that are now in default is at all time record highs.  Higher interest rates and further penalties only further exaccerbate the situation.  The college educated people, Generation X, can no longer afford to live.  There is a new term thats been coined after them: The Educated Poor.

Does that sound like they are an entire generation of Lazy Bums?

In ten years time, do not be suprised if you see the US Govt collapse the way the USSR did.  When the USSR collapsed, most people around the world did not consider those citizens to be lazy.  It was pretty damn well clear that most of those citizens ended up in a very bad situation through no fault of their own.  The US should be well known by now for playing Mind Games, Art of War shit, appear strong when you are weak, etc.  When the US talks about Unemployment, they dont consider the 90 million people that are no longer considered part of the work force.  Most of these people did not retire.  They are simply not factored into the statistic and usually do not talk much about where that statistic comes from.  I'll agree completely that certain people need to be excluded from the work force, such as students, children, retired, independantly wealthy, etc.  But for those that want to work, they are not counted as Unemployed.  For example, if a person here has a Realtors license, they do not count.  If they were fired from their previous job for ANY reason, they are not counted because they are not collecting Unemployment Benefits.  However if those numbers presented by the Govt get too high, people start gathering in masses and hope to start changing things.  Keeping the official unemployment number low is good propoganda, thats all.  Trust me, if there were riots in the streets here the way there are in the Ukraine, they would NOT report on it.

None of my friends are employed.  Out of about 15 people that I used to hang out with at least semi-regularly, only two of them have regular jobs, one of them had to move out of state to get that job.  The other guy knew somebody that knew somebody, but I wasnt really close with them.  The rest of us have to take what we can get, minimum wage temp jobs that typically expire after a few weeks.  These people that I knew, usually brothers and sisters of friends and co-workers have all been knocked on their asses from this economic crash.  For the people I do see (and dont know), they have no idea how bad things are getting here, and they live here!  My kid "wont get a job".  Thats what they think.  Just graduated high school, not ready for college or military, but they call them lazy and really think that they wont put forth any effort into getting a job.  Getting a job here any more requires extrordinary effort and luck, with the lowest possible return there is, often less.  Just because one person has a job does not mean another job exists for everyone that is out of work, but is severely distorts their perspective on the situation.

Not a rant, just loads of data.  I go through this daily with too many people to bother linking here, I come here because I dont want to think about how bad the future is, not because I want to be reminded of it everywhere I go on the web.
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Blizzard

June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am #15 Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 07:16:54 am by Blizzard
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
Harvard:  Accepts about 4-5% of applicants.  Wal Mart hires about 1-2% of those that apply.  That should be a solid indication of how few other jobs there are when decently educated (non Harvard) people have no other places to apply for work at other than Wal Mart.  Trust me, its not because Wal Mart is such a great place to work, its because most of the other jobs are gone.


5% of 1000 is still less than 1% of 10000.

Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
Stats that I could point links to wont convince you that the job market in the US has turned to shit, even tho it absolutely is.  There are barely any full time jobs.  Thanks to Obamacare (corpratized health coverage, IE, mandatory insurance with no care, not socialized health care either) most jobs here are now part time.  Theres also a big push to raise minimum wage.  Two sided coin.  A: employees would have enough to live on, barely.  B: due to increased pay, cant afford to keep as many employees, so many are laid off and let go.  Others will most likely be downgraded to part time.


I'm not saying that the situation hasn't become somewhat worse in the last years, but we are talking about an entire generation here. Focusing on just one economical crisis in the past few years seems silly.

Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
The middle class jobs that come with a decent education, trade skills, or experience are gone.  There has been zero actual job growth in the US since 2008.


You are still not giving me any references. I can say that the gaming industry is worth $90 bil. and the movie industry $80 bil., but without any references these numbers are meaningless.

Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
The result is a complete polarization of very very very high paying jobs (and only a few of them), and about the same number of minimum wage jobs.  The result of this is that everyone in the middle and at the bottom are now competing for those same jobs.  As a result, people with Masters Degrees (and an assload of debt) have no other choice than to apply at Wal Mart.  The number of bartenders and waitresses in this country with college degrees is staggering.  But the real problem is the debt that comes with it.  Working on a waitresses wages, one can not afford to make the payments on that education, and that debt does not go away even with bankruptcy.  Typical college educations cost at least as much as a house, but most of the time, much much more.  The number of student loans that are now in default is at all time record highs.  Higher interest rates and further penalties only further exaccerbate the situation.  The college educated people, Generation X, can no longer afford to live.  There is a new term thats been coined after them: The Educated Poor.


Not a lot of people in the Generation X have a college education. Even in Generation Y the percentage of college educated people is low. It's not like 70% has a college education. You are taking a minority of people and applying their standards to everybody else. This doesn't make sense in this context.

Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
Does that sound like they are an entire generation of Lazy Bums?


No, it sounds that college educated people think all they have to do is finish college and they are set for life. That's not lazy, that's somewhat spoiled and deluded. College gives a head start and prepares you for certain things, it doesn't compress 40 years of working into 5 years of studying and then being lazy.

Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
In ten years time, do not be suprised if you see the US Govt collapse the way the USSR did.  When the USSR collapsed, most people around the world did not consider those citizens to be lazy. It was pretty damn well clear that most of those citizens ended up in a very bad situation through no fault of their own.


Lol, what? The USSR collapsed, because 1 person worked while other 9 were being lazy fucks (among other things). The remnants of the communist mindset is the generation before mine in my country. Yes, 1 works while 9 sit around, drink coffe, talk and won't do shit which is one reason why my country is getting worse and people have started losing jobs here heavily. We have relatively 10 times as many bureaucrats as Germany. (I think we had 40k while Germany has 80k and we have a population of 4 mil. while Germany has 80 mil.)

Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
The US should be well known by now for playing Mind Games, Art of War shit, appear strong when you are weak, etc.  When the US talks about Unemployment, they dont consider the 90 million people that are no longer considered part of the work force.  Most of these people did not retire.  They are simply not factored into the statistic and usually do not talk much about where that statistic comes from.  I'll agree completely that certain people need to be excluded from the work force, such as students, children, retired, independantly wealthy, etc.  But for those that want to work, they are not counted as Unemployed.


Again, where are you getting these numbers from?
But as far as I see it, yes, people who are above the retirement age should not be considered work force, regardless if they want to work or not. Working teenagers aren't work force either.

Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
For example, if a person here has a Realtors license, they do not count.  If they were fired from their previous job for ANY reason, they are not counted because they are not collecting Unemployment Benefits.


This is definitely wrong. But I still see no references.

Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
However if those numbers presented by the Govt get too high, people start gathering in masses and hope to start changing things.  Keeping the official unemployment number low is good propoganda, thats all.  Trust me, if there were riots in the streets here the way there are in the Ukraine, they would NOT report on it.


Yeah, media control sucks, I agree. Trying to control people with fear and misinformation. The problem is that it's very effective. :/

Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
None of my friends are employed.  Out of about 15 people that I used to hang out with at least semi-regularly, only two of them have regular jobs, one of them had to move out of state to get that job.  The other guy knew somebody that knew somebody, but I wasnt really close with them.  The rest of us have to take what we can get, minimum wage temp jobs that typically expire after a few weeks.  These people that I knew, usually brothers and sisters of friends and co-workers have all been knocked on their asses from this economic crash.  For the people I do see (and dont know), they have no idea how bad things are getting here, and they live here!  My kid "wont get a job".  Thats what they think.  Just graduated high school, not ready for college or military, but they call them lazy and really think that they wont put forth any effort into getting a job.  Getting a job here any more requires extrordinary effort and luck, with the lowest possible return there is, often less.  Just because one person has a job does not mean another job exists for everyone that is out of work, but is severely distorts their perspective on the situation.


I'm saddened to hear that, but take into account that you can't extrapolate your immediate environment to the entire country. e.g. I always wondered how it's possible that such clueless people are in our government when everybody I know knows that they suck. Then I realized that I was in the best university in the country. Of course people who aren't idiots go there. But that's the minority. The majority of the country doesn't understand that their favorite politicians have almost ruined the entire country.

Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
Not a rant, just loads of data.  I go through this daily with too many people to bother linking here, I come here because I dont want to think about how bad the future is, not because I want to be reminded of it everywhere I go on the web.


I understand. But please, if you don't want to back your arguments up and reference stuff, don't enter these kind of discussions. It just makes you seem like a bitter ass.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

ForeverZer0

The very fact that people complain about it, and defend the reasons for unemployment is indicative of the problem. These past generations who supposedly had so much more opportunity would have been ashamed to jobless, and instead of blaming it on 1000 other reasons, would have simply did something about it, and make their own opportunity. There are plenty of incredible stats flying around on this thread, so I ask you: of your 15 jobless friends, how many were denied a job at WalMart because someone with a master's degree got it?

I have yet personally or known anyone who could not get a job who was really trying for it. Never, not once.
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Blizzard

Same here. Sure, I know people who have trouble finding a job. But those same people always have an excuse. Even things like not going to an interview "because they won't take me anyway" were said.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Heretic86

Oh ok.

I guess all those unemployed people in Greece and Spain deserve their fates too.  They did this to themselves.  It wasnt banks.  It wasnt their economies.  It was ALL their fault that they dont have jobs.  All those freshly graduated kids dont have jobs because they arent trying hard enough.  I suppose the Ukranians did this to themselves too.  Bernie Madoffs clients lost their fortunes and it was their own fault.  So was Enron.  And the Indians decided to wipe themselves out.  Its my fault when my employer goes out of business cuz no ones buying the stuff were trying to sell.  Its peoples own fault over half of people here have sub-prime credit, not the jobs.  Its peoples own fault tht food inflation is at 22%.  Yeah, boohoo for us when county and state pensions continue to be cut, its our own fault.  Because were all Lazy.

Riiiiiight.

Keep living in your dream world.  Eventually it will grow in scope and size, turn into a full blown nightmare, and bite you both hard in the ass.  Were on the verge of a worldwide economic collapse, that is apparently all the fault of a Lazy generation.  Oh, I see where the Y comes from now.  This is why I dont bother debating politics here.  As coders and scripters, you guys are great.  But understanding the world around you, and what is really happening, politics, enonomics, lies, yeah, not so much.  Enjoy the dream while it lasts.
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Blizzard

June 12, 2014, 09:40:59 am #19 Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 09:42:01 am by Blizzard
Straw man argument and Argumentum ad hominem. What's next, Reductio ad Hitlerum? If you can't have a civilized discussion, please don't respond anymore.

Yes, I totally looked up the names of these just so I could piss you off some more since you obviously are very emotional about the subject.
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Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

ForeverZer0

Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 09:21:26 am
I guess all those unemployed people in Greece and Spain deserve their fates too.


This is not what the conversation was about, but in a way, yes, I agree the same argument applies to their situation as well. There's is a result of the very line of thinking that you are defending.

Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 09:21:26 am
They did this to themselves.  It wasnt banks.  It wasnt their economies.  It was ALL their fault that they dont have jobs.  All those freshly graduated kids dont have jobs because they arent trying hard enough.  I suppose the Ukranians did this to themselves too.  Bernie Madoffs clients lost their fortunes and it was their own fault.  So was Enron.  And the Indians decided to wipe themselves out.  Its my fault when my employer goes out of business cuz no ones buying the stuff were trying to sell.  Its peoples own fault over half of people here have sub-prime credit, not the jobs.  Its peoples own fault tht food inflation is at 22%.  Yeah, boohoo for us when county and state pensions continue to be cut, its our own fault.  Because were all Lazy.

Riiiiiight.


...more emotional text that doesn't pertain to the issue at hand...


I will speak for the myself and Blizzard only because we are the main two debating this particular issue on this side of it at the moment. You speak as if we are uneducated children who know nothing of the way of the world, and we are in for some great "rude awakening" someday that only the dew enlightened ones like yourself know of. I do believe (though not 100% sure), that  our arguments about simply working for what you want come from personal experience, not what we read on the internet or watch on TV, or read about in political journals. We are both successful at what we do, and it is not because we are one of the lucky ones who had it handed to them, and its not because we sat on our asses bitching about how hard it was to find a job on an interent forum, instead of pursuing it, and WORKING hard to achieve it.

I grew up poor, and got addicted to drugs as teenager, and that addiction followed me into my mid-twenties. I found myself at 23 without a job, an education, or a dime to my name. I didn't cry and bitch about it, and blame it on the terrible world around me. I checked myself into a rehab, and WORKED at staying clean, and improving my life. Soon after this point was when I joined this forum.  Let's fast-forward a few years. I am now about to graduate from school in two weeks, of which I am paying for 100% myself, without any help from a parents, a trust-fund, or charity. I have some prospective jobs already lined up, and not because I waited for them to come to me, or simply filled out the online application and cried when the call never came. I worked hard on MAKING MYSELF EMPLOYABLE by getting myself off drugs, putting myself through school, getting good grades, creating a great résumé, and walked into places being confident and telling them what I had to offer them. I have not always been a confident person, so even doing that took WORK and EFFORT to learn, it's a quite a bit more than just going to school, you have to have ambition and drive to achieve these things, not just expectation and a false sense of entitlement.

I am nobody special, and I did nothing that anybody else can't do, at least as far as those in the United States, I cannot speak for the rest of the world. If you are of the believe that simply going to school and filling out an application is the way to be successful, I have a quote for you:

Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 09:21:26 am
Keep living in your dream world.  Eventually it will grow in scope and size, turn into a full blown nightmare...Enjoy the dream while it lasts.


And that lack of ambition and drive is what causes this bitterness. You would be further ahead to put the energy wasted on arguing about it, and instead put it towards doing something about it. You can't control the politicians, the bankers, or the government, only yourself, so instead of blaming everything on them, do whatever you can for your own self, and don't let them hold you back. Imagine if we all had that attitude, we wouldn't even be in a debate right now on this thread.
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Spiralflux

June 12, 2014, 11:37:39 am #21 Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 11:57:32 am by Spiralflux
Awkward moment when I thought this was about Pokemon...

To be honest though, I feel like every generation gets overly generalized based on the dominant culture. Look at America and some of Europe. This is mostly where that problem is, but that's because that's the dominant culture that is being presented and analyzed. However, if we take a look at Russia and most of Asia, where another vast majority of the population sits, this is really not a general problem. Yes, it exists there, but the cultural fundamentals there doesn't really promote such behavior and entitlement and their way of life and thinking is much different from ours.
It's the whole "American Dream" being blown out of proportions and quite frankly I also blame our poor approach in education. Students are not taught the reality of life in school. Schools also promote the "I'm special" attitude by constantly giving second chances in failures, giving a distorted view of the outside world. Hell, I'm almost 20 and I still haven't been taught how to do my taxes in any educational institution. They just expect you to go and figure it out, and it's that figuring out part that makes our ambitions come crashing down.

Imagine Lucy was on the right track to her career and she actually did net a great job. She got her lawn, but the reality of actually facing the world is what gets her. Maintaining that lawn, so to speak. She has to file taxes, pay mortgage (how does she know how to choose the right one?), pay for utility bills, understand how to cook, clean and take care of hazards in her home properly. She has to understand social structures and how to create connections to augment her career, something which is also not taught in schools. She basically gets a vastly different world thrown in her face all at once and is basically told "You can do it kiddo, figure it out for yourself."

Oh and I noticed a 30% unemployment rate statistic.
Well, I was kind enough to do some research: http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000
That's the official United States Bureau of Labor Statistics. I see a 6.3% reporting. Even if it's lowered to "cover" up a certain portion of the population, going from a 6.3 to a 30 is a 23.7% increase, which in the context of the USA's approximately 300 Million population is 71,100,000 people. That is an extremely significant amount of the population to the point where you can literally see it with your own eyes. I'm sure pretty sure the number is not that high.

Blizzard

June 12, 2014, 12:01:46 pm #22 Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 12:12:52 pm by Blizzard
Quote from: ForeverZer0 on June 12, 2014, 10:51:57 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 09:21:26 am
I guess all those unemployed people in Greece and Spain deserve their fates too.


This is not what the conversation was about, but in a way, yes, I agree the same argument applies to their situation as well. There's is a result of the very line of thinking that you are defending.


Though we do have to take into account that this is a complex issue and the reason why these things happened are not black or white. There are multiple parties that were at fault, partially the people themselves. Basically everybody fucked up.

But I don't think it's that relevant to our discussion since we are discussing the happiness of the individual, not entire social systems and nations.

Quote from: ForeverZer0 on June 12, 2014, 10:51:57 am
I am nobody special, and I did nothing that anybody else can't do, at least as far as those in the United States, I cannot speak for the rest of the world.


That's very well said. Every single one of us has the potential for greatness. But few people realize and execute on that potential. It's not just limited to the US. Sure, the US may provide more opportunity and things can be a bit easier in the US than it is in poorer countries such as mine, but that is no reason not to work hard anyway. Maybe it will be a bit harder, maybe not. It doesn't matter, because if you have a goal and you want it badly enough, you'll get there eventually through dedication, discipline and work. And with work I mean in general. Something as simple as educating yourself can be considered work in this context.

@SpiralFlux: Yeah, you're making a few good points. Though I don't think second chances are the bad thing in the school system, it's how they are presented. They are presented as "second chance after you fail" rather than it being a learning experience and the next logical step to actually learn what you are supposed to learn.
Extra Credits did a few episodes on education recently. Even though they barely scratched the surface of things, they are making a few good points about this.

EDIT: To be honest, I really wish it wasn't like that. I wish that people weren't lazy and full of excuses. But at one point it simply became obvious to since I used to do the same thing. Not in a professional area, but in other areas of my life. And once you've seen what's going on, it's hard to go back and be ignorant of it. The worst thing is, not only do people not realize what they are doing, they don't want to realize it. They have it "good enough" not to change anything. Revolutions throughout the history have shown that man can and will rise up to change things, but only if they get so bad that there is no other way. In every other situation, people will just go with it. They will complain a bit, but they will go with it.
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Spiralflux

An interesting video about the topic of education. I know it's a little off-topic, but I feel like it still has a huge relevance to the happiness of this generation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

Blizzard

I just finished watching. Yes, he's making a few very good points. It might take a while until we can restructure our educational system like this (if ever), but I'm sure that it would benefit the way how people are thinking and possibly change some fundamental things.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Heretic86

Call it strawman if you want.  I am being lazy and not bothering to validate my responses, but this thinking of poor people bring this all on themselves because they are lazy in every aspect of life and have all the opportunities everyone else has shows truly how misguided and uninformed you guys really are.
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Ryex

June 12, 2014, 10:16:04 pm #26 Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 10:18:13 pm by Ryex
Allow me to provide your proof (I investigated your claims and found a great deal of evidence for them.)

Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
The middle class jobs that come with a decent education, trade skills, or experience are gone.  There has been zero actual job growth in the US since 2008.


You are still not giving me any references. I can say that the gaming industry is worth $90 bil. and the movie industry $80 bil., but without any references these numbers are meaningless.


This is a fact.
Number of US jobs in 2008 http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm -> 135,185,230

Number of US jobs in 2013  http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm -> 132,588,810 -> 2.5 million fewer


Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
The result is a complete polarization of very very very high paying jobs (and only a few of them), and about the same number of minimum wage jobs.  The result of this is that everyone in the middle and at the bottom are now competing for those same jobs.  As a result, people with Masters Degrees (and an assload of debt) have no other choice than to apply at Wal Mart.  The number of bartenders and waitresses in this country with college degrees is staggering.  But the real problem is the debt that comes with it.  Working on a waitresses wages, one can not afford to make the payments on that education, and that debt does not go away even with bankruptcy.  Typical college educations cost at least as much as a house, but most of the time, much much more.  The number of student loans that are now in default is at all time record highs.  Higher interest rates and further penalties only further exaccerbate the situation.  The college educated people, Generation X, can no longer afford to live.  There is a new term thats been coined after them: The Educated Poor.


Not a lot of people in the Generation X have a college education. Even in Generation Y the percentage of college educated people is low. It's not like 70% has a college education. You are taking a minority of people and applying their standards to everybody else. This doesn't make sense in this context.


actually he's closer than you think.
Of employed US persons over 25 years of age. 58.27% have at least some college education, thats a majority.
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat07.htm



Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
The US should be well known by now for playing Mind Games, Art of War shit, appear strong when you are weak, etc.  When the US talks about Unemployment, they dont consider the 90 million people that are no longer considered part of the work force.  Most of these people did not retire.  They are simply not factored into the statistic and usually do not talk much about where that statistic comes from.  I'll agree completely that certain people need to be excluded from the work force, such as students, children, retired, independantly wealthy, etc.  But for those that want to work, they are not counted as Unemployed.


Again, where are you getting these numbers from?
But as far as I see it, yes, people who are above the retirement age should not be considered work force, regardless if they want to work or not. Working teenagers aren't work force either.


actually there is ample proof of this. I went to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics http://www.bls.gov and pulled a table of employment statistics sence 1973 http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat02.pdf and compiled some results

pay close attention to the percent change in the areas of unemployment and "Not in labor force". compare them with the percentage change in the total population.






















































Year     Population     Labor Force     % Population     Employed     % Population Employed    Unemployed      % Labor Force Unemployed         Not in labor force   % Population Not in Labor Force   % Population Unemployed
197369,292,00054,624,00078.8%52,34975.5%2,275,0004.2%14,667,00021.17%24.45%
2013118,555,00082,667,00069.7%76,353,00064.4%6,314,0007.6%35,889,00030.27%35.6%
% Change
+71.09%+51.34%-11.55%+45.8%-14.7%+177.54%+80.95%+144.69%+42.99%+45.60%



Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
For example, if a person here has a Realtors license, they do not count.  If they were fired from their previous job for ANY reason, they are not counted because they are not collecting Unemployment Benefits.


This is definitely wrong. But I still see no references.


http://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm

I can't find any reference to Realtors licenses but basically if your not actively applying to jobs in the last week your not considered part of the labor force. and if your doing unpaid work (ie chores) to moock off your parents your considered employed. Those two things can skew that statistics  a bit.

Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am

Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
None of my friends are employed.  Out of about 15 people that I used to hang out with at least semi-regularly, only two of them have regular jobs, one of them had to move out of state to get that job.  The other guy knew somebody that knew somebody, but I wasnt really close with them.  The rest of us have to take what we can get, minimum wage temp jobs that typically expire after a few weeks.  These people that I knew, usually brothers and sisters of friends and co-workers have all been knocked on their asses from this economic crash.  For the people I do see (and dont know), they have no idea how bad things are getting here, and they live here!  My kid "wont get a job".  Thats what they think.  Just graduated high school, not ready for college or military, but they call them lazy and really think that they wont put forth any effort into getting a job.  Getting a job here any more requires extrordinary effort and luck, with the lowest possible return there is, often less.  Just because one person has a job does not mean another job exists for everyone that is out of work, but is severely distorts their perspective on the situation.


I'm saddened to hear that, but take into account that you can't extrapolate your immediate environment to the entire country. e.g. I always wondered how it's possible that such clueless people are in our government when everybody I know knows that they suck. Then I realized that I was in the best university in the country. Of course people who aren't idiots go there. But that's the minority. The majority of the country doesn't understand that their favorite politicians have almost ruined the entire country.


personal story or not I can verify it true for a good number of people. I know, and was one of, many people (approx 20 acquaintances) who were applying for jobs left and right, filling out approximately 200 applications a week trying to get a job. course the people over 40 we claimed this two called bullshit, they didn't want to believe. most of us did find jobs eventually but it took months of endless applications.

Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
Not a rant, just loads of data.  I go through this daily with too many people to bother linking here, I come here because I dont want to think about how bad the future is, not because I want to be reminded of it everywhere I go on the web.


I understand. But please, if you don't want to back your arguments up and reference stuff, don't enter these kind of discussions. It just makes you seem like a bitter ass.


while his post was emotional most of his facts were provable with public resources, just sayin.
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ForeverZer0

I was one of those poor people. I got out of it by not feeling sorry for myself, and I am not going to start feeling sorry now. I don't know where you come up with the idea I am misguided, I am proud of the achievements I have made through my efforts. Just stay by the phone, WalMart will call soon.
I am done scripting for RMXP. I will likely not offer support for even my own scripts anymore, but feel free to ask on the forum, there are plenty of other talented scripters that can help you.

PhoenixFire

To be honest, this another one of those topics where point of view will skew what people think here; F0 has a perfectly good point, and is a great example of those cases where hard work and belief in oneself can lead to something. For that, kudos! Heretic is completely correct too though, and apparently can back up his side with fact just as well as Blizz. All in all, the resulkt is the same, regardless of the blamed causes. Whether or not it is fair to generalize an entire generational group for the flaws of the majority, well, that's debatable. I consider myself part of the generation in question, yet at the same time, I do not fit into the description; I have a very similar story as F0, though less on the drugs side. In reality, this debate really just isn't my cup of tea, because it's an argument neither side can win; at least part of each sides view is based on opinion and personal experience, and as that varies from person to person, in a group of 10,000 people, you'll have 10,000 different answers...

[/rant]
Quote from: Subsonic_Noise on July 01, 2011, 02:42:19 amNext off, how to create a first person shooter using microsoft excel.

Quote from: Zeriab on September 09, 2011, 02:58:58 pm<Remember when computers had turbo buttons?

Spiralflux

There is never really a "win" in a debate. I think that's a poor notion in society to have. There is no right or wrong answer to an open ended situation and I feel it's wrong to say someone won a debate.
I believe a debate in its essence is one of the best ways to obtain new perspectives and knowledge. What Heretic is saying could be true or not, and what Blizz could be saying could be true or not. It doesn't matter. Hell, it doesn't even matter what the article is saying. What matters is what you take out of it and every person will differ in this.

Even if a debate gets emotional as in the case of Heretic, I think that's fine. Emotions help emphasize points and establish connections because we as human beings can sympathize with emotions and can understand them.
My original point of a poor education system still stands, and that is my contribution to the debate. Reading over what Blizz and Heretic have been saying has just simply made me re-analyze my education point and refine it. It's not right, nor is it wrong, just a different way of thinking to expand the boundaries of human knowledge.

So to further add to the debate, I believe that education is a pretty powerful thing. But I believe the proper type of education is what is needed. In this day and age, I strongly feel like educating yourself in academia can only get you so far because I do agree with Heretic that the economy is facing a very very poor reality right now and our kids will be the ones who suffer the most. What I believe is that Gen Y had very poorly directed education from their parents. It was a push into academia; something that would have helped their parents, but not necessarily themselves. Right now our world revolves around social structures and hierarchies more so than ever before. In this era of digitalism, almost everything you do is made public. So my firm belief is that educating people into how to build a credible and presentable persona, and how to properly fit into the social structures and hierarchies is what needs to be done. People need to be taught respect, responsibility, accountability and ambition. People need to be taught the importance of putting on a suit. The importance of first impressions and a hand shake. The importance of putting off your own desires for someone else's as an investment (Having an influential person owing you a favour is always a plus). All these basic social skills are vital in today's age and to be perfectly honest: not a lot of people know how to use them.

If we're going to do personal stories, I'll throw one in. I love studying people. I adore understanding patterns in humans and why we do what we do. I'm currently majoring in Social Psychology.
My grades? Not that great, honestly. My relationship with my parents? Mediocre. My friends? Best I could ask for.
I was pretty much alone growing up. My parents tried educating me and pushing me to excel in school, but I just hated school. Shoot me, but I HATED going to it and forcibly learning concepts. I liked learning everything on my own and picking up everything for myself how I saw fit. I had a rough few years in terms of relationships, schooling, finances and just regular teen angst. Lots of people thought I'd amount to nothing because quite frankly I was a lazy piece of shit who had no fancy grades to show. I just sat and gamed all day. But, honestly, I believed in my skill set and I believed in my ability to do something with my life, despite all the negativity and all the harsh words other people told me. I took every lesson from my failures to heart, and even if I did repeat my mistakes, it did affect my personality. Hell, I'll even bring one close to home in CP. I was picked up my Blizzard to map for Lexima Legends THREE times. I did a few maps for him and then I let him down all three times simply because I couldn't find the time to do his requests anymore. You can guess how disappointed he was. I took that harshly, and now I've gotten a lot better at managing what I can and can't do.
So, all in all, I'm almost 20 and currently a Manager at a large retail chain in my country. I have no post secondary diploma or fancy grades to show, I simply had the correct social skills to climb the ladder and the ability to push through and meet a challenge.

In conclusion, that's why I feel having strong social abilities is key now. So I stand firm on the fact that today's generation Y is so miserable is due to the issue of not being educated properly about the world they're about to enter. This is most likely due to a gap between their parent's understanding of how they grew up and the world they faced to the world that their child will be facing.

Blizzard

June 13, 2014, 03:05:57 am #30 Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 03:12:04 am by Blizzard
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 10:09:21 pm
I am being lazy and not bothering to validate my responses,


Then don't respond at all. If you can't have a normal discussion, stop responding.

Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 10:09:21 pm
but this thinking of poor people bring this all on themselves because they are lazy in every aspect of life and have all the opportunities everyone else has shows truly how misguided and uninformed you guys really are.


Straw man argument again. You simply take what everybody here said out of context, extrapolate it to ridiculous proportions and apply it to everything. "Oh, if people are lazy, then it must mean that all the bad things in life happen because people are lazy and that they are lazy in every aspect of life."




Ok, here is a simple question. What did you do for the past 2 weeks? Every day, what did you do? How much time did you spend on doing certain things? I'm not expecting you to show me an entire list of exactly at what time you did what (heck, I can't remember what I had for lunch 2 days ago), but in general what were you doing for the past 2 weeks and how much time did you spend on doing them? Just try to make a list and see how much time you spend being productive in any way.

Here's an example roughly of what I did for the past 2 weeks.

Spoiler: ShowHide
2 weeks means 5 working days plus 2 days of weekend, so 10 working days and 4 days of weekend altogether. I probably sleep less than 8 hours a day on average, but for the sake of simplicity let's say I do sleep 8 hours. That's 224 waking hours left to get shit done.

I work 8 hours a day and lose about an hour for going to work and home afterwards. That's 9 x 10 = 90 which leaves me with 134 waking hours of free time. When I go out during working days, I try to sleep 2-3 during the day after work so I can go out at night and not be totally fucked up the next day. Regardless, this usually reduces my free time on that day to 1 hour since I get home, do a few chores, then sleep until around 8 PM, then meditate, shower, eat, my buddies come over at around 10 PM and we usually leave my place at midnight. For the sake of simplicity let's say that's 7 more waking hours (since I usually don't make up for lost sleep except maybe a bit of resting the day after when I get home from work). I did this 4 times over the past 2 weeks which means I'm down another 28 hours. That's 106 hours left. We went out on a Saturday so I can safely assume that I wasted another 6 hours on that, too. 100 hours left.

In these 100 hours I lost time on eating, hygiene and misc small things, too. Let's say I lose 2 hours a day on this stuff, this is another 28 hours. 72 hours left. Of these 72 hours I spent at least 30 hours programming on my own projects at home (we're close to releasing a new game, woohoo!). I started up meditation again exactly 2 weeks ago so that means almost another 5 hours. Of these remaining 37 hours I probably did nothing really productive. But I don't blame myself. When I get home from work, rest up a bit, maybe eat something, then work a few more hours on my own projects and then relax a bit by surfing the Internet or watching a movie or something (usually I work just straight up until I go to sleep, but on other days not at all).

These are rough estimates. I obviously counted some hygiene, eating and meditation twice since I already accounted for it in those 5 times I went out. 2 weeks ago on Saturday when we went out I was drinking that time so I was messed up the entire day afterwards which means 16 hours of doing nothing. These 16 hours are also lost around somewhere in these estimates.

Remember, these are all rough estimates since I'm not keeping a journal (my friend Teo says I totally should ._.).


What did you do for the past 2 weeks? I think that I realistically wasted only 40-50 hours on doing absolutely nothing useful. (Keep in mind that going out for me is being productive, because I hone my social skills, meet new people and created connections. All that while having fun.) And I still consider myself somewhat lazy. Though I probably shouldn't be so hard on myself since the body needs to rest a bit even during waking hours.

Try keeping a journal for 2 weeks and see how much time every day you do something productive. Compare it to mine. See for yourself how productive you are. I've had 30 hours of programming + 35 hours of socializing and networking + 80 hours at work.

Quote from: Ryex on June 12, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
Allow me to provide your proof (I investigated your claims and found a great deal of evidence for them.)

Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
The middle class jobs that come with a decent education, trade skills, or experience are gone.  There has been zero actual job growth in the US since 2008.


You are still not giving me any references. I can say that the gaming industry is worth $90 bil. and the movie industry $80 bil., but without any references these numbers are meaningless.


This is a fact.
Number of US jobs in 2008 http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm -> 135,185,230

Number of US jobs in 2013  http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm -> 132,588,810 -> 2.5 million fewer


Thank you, this is what I was asking for. It's definitely interesting information. The overall number of jobs decreased by only 2%. By the degree people are complaining, I expected something in the range of 10%-20%, lol!

Quote from: Ryex on June 12, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
The result is a complete polarization of very very very high paying jobs (and only a few of them), and about the same number of minimum wage jobs.  The result of this is that everyone in the middle and at the bottom are now competing for those same jobs.  As a result, people with Masters Degrees (and an assload of debt) have no other choice than to apply at Wal Mart.  The number of bartenders and waitresses in this country with college degrees is staggering.  But the real problem is the debt that comes with it.  Working on a waitresses wages, one can not afford to make the payments on that education, and that debt does not go away even with bankruptcy.  Typical college educations cost at least as much as a house, but most of the time, much much more.  The number of student loans that are now in default is at all time record highs.  Higher interest rates and further penalties only further exaccerbate the situation.  The college educated people, Generation X, can no longer afford to live.  There is a new term thats been coined after them: The Educated Poor.


Not a lot of people in the Generation X have a college education. Even in Generation Y the percentage of college educated people is low. It's not like 70% has a college education. You are taking a minority of people and applying their standards to everybody else. This doesn't make sense in this context.


actually he's closer than you think.
Of employed US persons over 25 years of age. 58.27% have at least some college education, thats a majority.
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat07.htm


Wow, that's really something. I had no idea. The number of college educated people in my country is below 10%, I didn't think it would be higher than 20%, maybe 30% in other countries.

Quote from: Ryex on June 12, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
The US should be well known by now for playing Mind Games, Art of War shit, appear strong when you are weak, etc.  When the US talks about Unemployment, they dont consider the 90 million people that are no longer considered part of the work force.  Most of these people did not retire.  They are simply not factored into the statistic and usually do not talk much about where that statistic comes from.  I'll agree completely that certain people need to be excluded from the work force, such as students, children, retired, independantly wealthy, etc.  But for those that want to work, they are not counted as Unemployed.


Again, where are you getting these numbers from?
But as far as I see it, yes, people who are above the retirement age should not be considered work force, regardless if they want to work or not. Working teenagers aren't work force either.


actually there is ample proof of this. I went to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics http://www.bls.gov and pulled a table of employment statistics sence 1973 http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat02.pdf and compiled some results

pay close attention to the percent change in the areas of unemployment and "Not in labor force". compare them with the percentage change in the total population.






















































Year     Population     Labor Force     % Population     Employed     % Population Employed    Unemployed      % Labor Force Unemployed         Not in labor force   % Population Not in Labor Force   % Population Unemployed
197369,292,00054,624,00078.8%52,34975.5%2,275,0004.2%14,667,00021.17%24.45%
2013118,555,00082,667,00069.7%76,353,00064.4%6,314,0007.6%35,889,00030.27%35.6%
% Change
+71.09%+51.34%-11.55%+45.8%-14.7%+177.54%+80.95%+144.69%+42.99%+45.60%



Thank you again. These are some way more realistic numbers. And yeah, the percentage of unemployed labor force is 7.6%, not 30%. You just gotta love how people will always compare the unemployed labor force of 1973 (4.2%) to the unemployed population in 2013 (35.6%) and complain how much worse off we are now than 40 years ago.

Quote from: Ryex on June 12, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
For example, if a person here has a Realtors license, they do not count.  If they were fired from their previous job for ANY reason, they are not counted because they are not collecting Unemployment Benefits.


This is definitely wrong. But I still see no references.


http://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm

I can't find any reference to Realtors licenses but basically if your not actively applying to jobs in the last week your not considered part of the labor force. and if your doing unpaid work (ie chores) to moock off your parents your considered employed. Those two things can skew that statistics  a bit.


Ah, I see. Well, maybe a week is really little, but technically work force IS the amount of people who work or want to work. I think it would be kinda silly that people who don't even want to work should be considered part of the work force. It's not called work capable. But at this point I can only talk out of my ass.

Quote from: Ryex on June 12, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
None of my friends are employed.  Out of about 15 people that I used to hang out with at least semi-regularly, only two of them have regular jobs, one of them had to move out of state to get that job.  The other guy knew somebody that knew somebody, but I wasnt really close with them.  The rest of us have to take what we can get, minimum wage temp jobs that typically expire after a few weeks.  These people that I knew, usually brothers and sisters of friends and co-workers have all been knocked on their asses from this economic crash.  For the people I do see (and dont know), they have no idea how bad things are getting here, and they live here!  My kid "wont get a job".  Thats what they think.  Just graduated high school, not ready for college or military, but they call them lazy and really think that they wont put forth any effort into getting a job.  Getting a job here any more requires extrordinary effort and luck, with the lowest possible return there is, often less.  Just because one person has a job does not mean another job exists for everyone that is out of work, but is severely distorts their perspective on the situation.


I'm saddened to hear that, but take into account that you can't extrapolate your immediate environment to the entire country. e.g. I always wondered how it's possible that such clueless people are in our government when everybody I know knows that they suck. Then I realized that I was in the best university in the country. Of course people who aren't idiots go there. But that's the minority. The majority of the country doesn't understand that their favorite politicians have almost ruined the entire country.


personal story or not I can verify it true for a good number of people. I know, and was one of, many people (approx 20 acquaintances) who were applying for jobs left and right, filling out approximately 200 applications a week trying to get a job. course the people over 40 we claimed this two called bullshit, they didn't want to believe. most of us did find jobs eventually but it took months of endless applications.


As I said in an earlier post, it took my mom 3 months of endless applications and searching as well to find another job. But she found one, because she wasn't sitting around being lazy and complaining, but took action. Look at things like this. If most people won't bother looking for a job so hard, it makes it easier for those who do, lol!

Quote from: Ryex on June 12, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
Not a rant, just loads of data.  I go through this daily with too many people to bother linking here, I come here because I dont want to think about how bad the future is, not because I want to be reminded of it everywhere I go on the web.


I understand. But please, if you don't want to back your arguments up and reference stuff, don't enter these kind of discussions. It just makes you seem like a bitter ass.


while his post was emotional most of his facts were provable with public resources, just sayin.


I'm not arguing the facts as much as the fact that he didn't provide any references, lol! Thanks again for digging out this data.




I want to add here that the number of employed people dropped by 2% (as Ryex showed before). I don't know by how many percent the population increased over the last 5 years, but to be honest I really thought the effective numbers of increase in unemployment went up insanely high by the amount people that keep complaining. Everybody just keeps complaining. ._.

Quote from: Spiralflux on June 12, 2014, 11:53:19 pm
Even if a debate gets emotional as in the case of Heretic, I think that's fine. Emotions help emphasize points and establish connections because we as human beings can sympathize with emotions and can understand them.


I disagree. Emotions like this are caused by conflict of realities. Heretic has his own reality and can't accept the fact that you CAN be successful with hard work. It messes with his belief system and turns things around in a way that make him seem like lazy/a pussy/whatever for not trying hard enough. The process of the subconscious goes something like "Does that mean that I'm just being a little bitch this time?! Noooooo! That can't be true! I must defend my reality at all costs! I'm not lazy! I'm not a little complaining bitch! I have a right to be angry, because the world is against me, because I am completely powerless about the bad things that happen to me!" and then creates an emotional response, because the ego (in the context of one's self-image) is feeling threatened.

Quote from: Spiralflux on June 12, 2014, 11:53:19 pm
So to further add to the debate, I believe that education is a pretty powerful thing. But I believe the proper type of education is what is needed. In this day and age, I strongly feel like educating yourself in academia can only get you so far because I do agree with Heretic that the economy is facing a very very poor reality right now and our kids will be the ones who suffer the most. What I believe is that Gen Y had very poorly directed education from their parents. It was a push into academia; something that would have helped their parents, but not necessarily themselves. Right now our world revolves around social structures and hierarchies more so than ever before. In this era of digitalism, almost everything you do is made public. So my firm belief is that educating people into how to build a credible and presentable persona, and how to properly fit into the social structures and hierarchies is what needs to be done. People need to be taught respect, responsibility, accountability and ambition. People need to be taught the importance of putting on a suit. The importance of first impressions and a hand shake.


These are definitely some good concepts, but the problem of execution is still there. Sadly changing the entire educational system will take time. ._.

Quote from: Spiralflux on June 12, 2014, 11:53:19 pm
The importance of putting off your own desires for someone else's as an investment.


This is one of the best things I've heard somebody say about this particular topic. People are always justify them being "nice" by trying to put off their own desires for others, not realizing that they are causing damage to themselves and the other person.

Quote from: Spiralflux on June 12, 2014, 11:53:19 pm
Social Psychology.


I love that field, lol!

Quote from: Spiralflux on June 12, 2014, 11:53:19 pm
In conclusion, that's why I feel having strong social abilities is key now. So I stand firm on the fact that today's generation Y is so miserable is due to the issue of not being educated properly about the world they're about to enter. This is most likely due to a gap between their parent's understanding of how they grew up and the world they faced to the world that their child will be facing.


This is definitely a good point. I'm not arguing that the current educational system isn't part of the cause of the situation today. But for an individual the past is the past. The important thing isn't what brought them here, but what they are going to do next. If the educational system caused damage, each individual should invest some time into fixing these things (at least as many as possible) and move on. Instead, everybody just keeps complaining "Yeah, the world messed me up, it's not my fault, I can't do anything about it." It doesn't matter who's fault it is. If the situation is messed up, fix it. But if you don't go about fixing it, you're being lazy and that thing IS your fault.
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Ryex

Of note is that the numbers in the table I put is is JUST men, sorry I didn't say that earlier.

The numbers tell a slightly different story. the percent of the female population that was employed was at 44.7% and increased to about 57.5% by 1990 and has fluctuated around that ever since. meanwhile the unemployment % started at 6.1, dropped to 4 by 2000 and then quickly climbed back to 7.1

The really interesting thing about that data is that the decline since 1973 (a notable date not only because it's the last date in the BLS database but because it's the start of Generation Y)

the % of the population IN the workforce has dropped close to 1% every year at the current rate only 60% of the entire population (women and men) will be employed in 2053

40% of our population not contributing in any way...

please note that the employment department statistics do not count institutionalised or persons below the age of 16. so that 40% of the population that COULD work, not working.
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This doesn't have to be necessarily a bad thing. In 2053 our entire society could look very different so a big work force might not be required.
Check out Daygames and our games:

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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.