Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 10:09:21 pm
I am being lazy and not bothering to validate my responses,
Then don't respond at all. If you can't have a normal discussion, stop responding.
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 10:09:21 pm
but this thinking of poor people bring this all on themselves because they are lazy in every aspect of life and have all the opportunities everyone else has shows truly how misguided and uninformed you guys really are.
Straw man argument again. You simply take what everybody here said out of context, extrapolate it to ridiculous proportions and apply it to everything. "Oh, if people are lazy, then it must mean that all the bad things in life happen because people are lazy and that they are lazy in every aspect of life."
Ok, here is a simple question. What did you do for the past 2 weeks? Every day, what did you do? How much time did you spend on doing certain things? I'm not expecting you to show me an entire list of exactly at what time you did what (heck, I can't remember what I had for lunch 2 days ago), but in general what were you doing for the past 2 weeks and how much time did you spend on doing them? Just try to make a list and see how much time you spend being productive in any way.
Here's an example roughly of what I did for the past 2 weeks.
2 weeks means 5 working days plus 2 days of weekend, so 10 working days and 4 days of weekend altogether. I probably sleep less than 8 hours a day on average, but for the sake of simplicity let's say I do sleep 8 hours. That's 224 waking hours left to get shit done.
I work 8 hours a day and lose about an hour for going to work and home afterwards. That's 9 x 10 = 90 which leaves me with 134 waking hours of free time. When I go out during working days, I try to sleep 2-3 during the day after work so I can go out at night and not be totally fucked up the next day. Regardless, this usually reduces my free time on that day to 1 hour since I get home, do a few chores, then sleep until around 8 PM, then meditate, shower, eat, my buddies come over at around 10 PM and we usually leave my place at midnight. For the sake of simplicity let's say that's 7 more waking hours (since I usually don't make up for lost sleep except maybe a bit of resting the day after when I get home from work). I did this 4 times over the past 2 weeks which means I'm down another 28 hours. That's 106 hours left. We went out on a Saturday so I can safely assume that I wasted another 6 hours on that, too. 100 hours left.
In these 100 hours I lost time on eating, hygiene and misc small things, too. Let's say I lose 2 hours a day on this stuff, this is another 28 hours. 72 hours left. Of these 72 hours I spent at least 30 hours programming on my own projects at home (we're close to releasing a new game, woohoo!). I started up meditation again exactly 2 weeks ago so that means almost another 5 hours. Of these remaining 37 hours I probably did nothing really productive. But I don't blame myself. When I get home from work, rest up a bit, maybe eat something, then work a few more hours on my own projects and then relax a bit by surfing the Internet or watching a movie or something (usually I work just straight up until I go to sleep, but on other days not at all).
These are rough estimates. I obviously counted some hygiene, eating and meditation twice since I already accounted for it in those 5 times I went out. 2 weeks ago on Saturday when we went out I was drinking that time so I was messed up the entire day afterwards which means 16 hours of doing nothing. These 16 hours are also lost around somewhere in these estimates.
Remember, these are all rough estimates since I'm not keeping a journal (my friend Teo says I totally should ._.).
What did you do for the past 2 weeks? I think that I realistically wasted only 40-50 hours on doing absolutely nothing useful. (Keep in mind that going out for me is being productive, because I hone my social skills, meet new people and created connections. All that while having fun.) And I still consider myself somewhat lazy. Though I probably shouldn't be so hard on myself since the body needs to rest a bit even during waking hours.
Try keeping a journal for 2 weeks and see how much time every day you do something productive. Compare it to mine. See for yourself how productive you are. I've had 30 hours of programming + 35 hours of socializing and networking + 80 hours at work.
Quote from: Ryex on June 12, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
Allow me to provide your proof (I investigated your claims and found a great deal of evidence for them.)
Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
The middle class jobs that come with a decent education, trade skills, or experience are gone. There has been zero actual job growth in the US since 2008.
You are still not giving me any references. I can say that the gaming industry is worth $90 bil. and the movie industry $80 bil., but without any references these numbers are meaningless.
This is a fact.
Number of US jobs in 2008 http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm -> 135,185,230
Number of US jobs in 2013 http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm -> 132,588,810 -> 2.5 million fewer
Thank you, this is what I was asking for. It's definitely interesting information. The overall number of jobs decreased by only 2%. By the degree people are complaining, I expected something in the range of 10%-20%, lol!
Quote from: Ryex on June 12, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
The result is a complete polarization of very very very high paying jobs (and only a few of them), and about the same number of minimum wage jobs. The result of this is that everyone in the middle and at the bottom are now competing for those same jobs. As a result, people with Masters Degrees (and an assload of debt) have no other choice than to apply at Wal Mart. The number of bartenders and waitresses in this country with college degrees is staggering. But the real problem is the debt that comes with it. Working on a waitresses wages, one can not afford to make the payments on that education, and that debt does not go away even with bankruptcy. Typical college educations cost at least as much as a house, but most of the time, much much more. The number of student loans that are now in default is at all time record highs. Higher interest rates and further penalties only further exaccerbate the situation. The college educated people, Generation X, can no longer afford to live. There is a new term thats been coined after them: The Educated Poor.
Not a lot of people in the Generation X have a college education. Even in Generation Y the percentage of college educated people is low. It's not like 70% has a college education. You are taking a minority of people and applying their standards to everybody else. This doesn't make sense in this context.
actually he's closer than you think.
Of employed US persons over 25 years of age. 58.27% have at least some college education, thats a majority.
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat07.htm
Wow, that's really something. I had no idea. The number of college educated people in my country is below 10%, I didn't think it would be higher than 20%, maybe 30% in other countries.
Quote from: Ryex on June 12, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
The US should be well known by now for playing Mind Games, Art of War shit, appear strong when you are weak, etc. When the US talks about Unemployment, they dont consider the 90 million people that are no longer considered part of the work force. Most of these people did not retire. They are simply not factored into the statistic and usually do not talk much about where that statistic comes from. I'll agree completely that certain people need to be excluded from the work force, such as students, children, retired, independantly wealthy, etc. But for those that want to work, they are not counted as Unemployed.
Again, where are you getting these numbers from?
But as far as I see it, yes, people who are above the retirement age should not be considered work force, regardless if they want to work or not. Working teenagers aren't work force either.
actually there is ample proof of this. I went to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics http://www.bls.gov and pulled a table of employment statistics sence 1973 http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat02.pdf and compiled some results
pay close attention to the percent change in the areas of unemployment and "Not in labor force". compare them with the percentage change in the total population.
Year |
Population |
Labor Force |
% Population |
Employed |
% Population Employed |
Unemployed |
% Labor Force Unemployed |
Not in labor force |
% Population Not in Labor Force |
% Population Unemployed |
1973 |
69,292,000 |
54,624,000 |
78.8% |
52,349 |
75.5% |
2,275,000 |
4.2% |
14,667,000 |
21.17% |
24.45% |
2013 |
118,555,000 |
82,667,000 |
69.7% |
76,353,000 |
64.4% |
6,314,000 |
7.6% |
35,889,000 |
30.27% |
35.6% |
% Change |
|
+71.09% |
+51.34% |
-11.55% |
+45.8% |
-14.7% |
+177.54% |
+80.95% |
+144.69% |
+42.99% |
+45.60% |
Thank you again. These are some way more realistic numbers. And yeah, the percentage of unemployed labor force is 7.6%, not 30%. You just gotta love how people will always compare the unemployed labor force of 1973 (4.2%) to the unemployed population in 2013 (35.6%) and complain how much worse off we are now than 40 years ago.
Quote from: Ryex on June 12, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
For example, if a person here has a Realtors license, they do not count. If they were fired from their previous job for ANY reason, they are not counted because they are not collecting Unemployment Benefits.
This is definitely wrong. But I still see no references.
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm
I can't find any reference to Realtors licenses but basically if your not actively applying to jobs in the last week your not considered part of the labor force. and if your doing unpaid work (ie chores) to moock off your parents your considered employed. Those two things can skew that statistics a bit.
Ah, I see. Well, maybe a week is really little, but technically work force IS the amount of people who work or want to work. I think it would be kinda silly that people who don't even want to work should be considered part of the work force. It's not called work capable. But at this point I can only talk out of my ass.
Quote from: Ryex on June 12, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
None of my friends are employed. Out of about 15 people that I used to hang out with at least semi-regularly, only two of them have regular jobs, one of them had to move out of state to get that job. The other guy knew somebody that knew somebody, but I wasnt really close with them. The rest of us have to take what we can get, minimum wage temp jobs that typically expire after a few weeks. These people that I knew, usually brothers and sisters of friends and co-workers have all been knocked on their asses from this economic crash. For the people I do see (and dont know), they have no idea how bad things are getting here, and they live here! My kid "wont get a job". Thats what they think. Just graduated high school, not ready for college or military, but they call them lazy and really think that they wont put forth any effort into getting a job. Getting a job here any more requires extrordinary effort and luck, with the lowest possible return there is, often less. Just because one person has a job does not mean another job exists for everyone that is out of work, but is severely distorts their perspective on the situation.
I'm saddened to hear that, but take into account that you can't extrapolate your immediate environment to the entire country. e.g. I always wondered how it's possible that such clueless people are in our government when everybody I know knows that they suck. Then I realized that I was in the best university in the country. Of course people who aren't idiots go there. But that's the minority. The majority of the country doesn't understand that their favorite politicians have almost ruined the entire country.
personal story or not I can verify it true for a good number of people. I know, and was one of, many people (approx 20 acquaintances) who were applying for jobs left and right, filling out approximately 200 applications a week trying to get a job. course the people over 40 we claimed this two called bullshit, they didn't want to believe. most of us did find jobs eventually but it took months of endless applications.
As I said in an earlier post, it took my mom 3 months of endless applications and searching as well to find another job. But she found one, because she wasn't sitting around being lazy and complaining, but took action. Look at things like this. If most people won't bother looking for a job so hard, it makes it easier for those who do, lol!
Quote from: Ryex on June 12, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
Quote from: Blizzard on June 12, 2014, 07:11:14 am
Quote from: Heretic86 on June 12, 2014, 05:39:52 am
Not a rant, just loads of data. I go through this daily with too many people to bother linking here, I come here because I dont want to think about how bad the future is, not because I want to be reminded of it everywhere I go on the web.
I understand. But please, if you don't want to back your arguments up and reference stuff, don't enter these kind of discussions. It just makes you seem like a bitter ass.
while his post was emotional most of his facts were provable with public resources, just sayin.
I'm not arguing the facts as much as the fact that he didn't provide any references, lol! Thanks again for digging out this data.
I want to add here that the number of employed people dropped by 2% (as Ryex showed before). I don't know by how many percent the population increased over the last 5 years, but to be honest I really thought the effective numbers of increase in unemployment went up insanely high by the amount people that keep complaining. Everybody just keeps complaining. ._.
Quote from: Spiralflux on June 12, 2014, 11:53:19 pm
Even if a debate gets emotional as in the case of Heretic, I think that's fine. Emotions help emphasize points and establish connections because we as human beings can sympathize with emotions and can understand them.
I disagree. Emotions like this are caused by conflict of realities. Heretic has his own reality and can't accept the fact that you CAN be successful with hard work. It messes with his belief system and turns things around in a way that make him seem like lazy/a pussy/whatever for not trying hard enough. The process of the subconscious goes something like "Does that mean that I'm just being a little bitch this time?! Noooooo! That can't be true! I must defend my reality at all costs! I'm not lazy! I'm not a little complaining bitch! I have a right to be angry, because the world is against me, because I am completely powerless about the bad things that happen to me!" and then creates an emotional response, because the ego (in the context of one's self-image) is feeling threatened.
Quote from: Spiralflux on June 12, 2014, 11:53:19 pm
So to further add to the debate, I believe that education is a pretty powerful thing. But I believe the proper type of education is what is needed. In this day and age, I strongly feel like educating yourself in academia can only get you so far because I do agree with Heretic that the economy is facing a very very poor reality right now and our kids will be the ones who suffer the most. What I believe is that Gen Y had very poorly directed education from their parents. It was a push into academia; something that would have helped their parents, but not necessarily themselves. Right now our world revolves around social structures and hierarchies more so than ever before. In this era of digitalism, almost everything you do is made public. So my firm belief is that educating people into how to build a credible and presentable persona, and how to properly fit into the social structures and hierarchies is what needs to be done. People need to be taught respect, responsibility, accountability and ambition. People need to be taught the importance of putting on a suit. The importance of first impressions and a hand shake.
These are definitely some good concepts, but the problem of execution is still there. Sadly changing the entire educational system will take time. ._.
Quote from: Spiralflux on June 12, 2014, 11:53:19 pm
The importance of putting off your own desires for someone else's as an investment.
This is one of the best things I've heard somebody say about this particular topic. People are always justify them being "nice" by trying to put off their own desires for others, not realizing that they are causing damage to themselves and the other person.
Quote from: Spiralflux on June 12, 2014, 11:53:19 pm
Social Psychology.
I love that field, lol!
Quote from: Spiralflux on June 12, 2014, 11:53:19 pm
In conclusion, that's why I feel having strong social abilities is key now. So I stand firm on the fact that today's generation Y is so miserable is due to the issue of not being educated properly about the world they're about to enter. This is most likely due to a gap between their parent's understanding of how they grew up and the world they faced to the world that their child will be facing.
This is definitely a good point. I'm not arguing that the current educational system isn't part of the cause of the situation today. But for an individual the past is the past. The important thing isn't what brought them here, but what they are going to do next. If the educational system caused damage, each individual should invest some time into fixing these things (at least as many as possible) and move on. Instead, everybody just keeps complaining "Yeah, the world messed me up, it's not my fault, I can't do anything about it." It doesn't matter who's fault it is. If the situation is messed up, fix it. But if you don't go about fixing it, you're being lazy and that thing IS your fault.