Use of Clichés in RPGs

[Diokatsu]

In response to:

lol wow got debateful eh 

but all in all Starrodkirby86 was pretty close to what i had in mind

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I don't really want to make a debate into this, but the public's opinion can sometimes be used as a good idea. What I mean is that Spoofus may not really take this fully into account, as these are just suggestions. It's not like he just thought of this without reason to back it up. Possibly Spoofus was deadlocked and confused to what weapon his hero should wield and he just needs a little help from the community to get it all back up. Whatever it is, I do agree with your point that the author himself is the best source for decisions like this, but when the author simply can't decide or make one, then it wouldn't hurt to get help (Until the author gets dependent on it like drugs, then it'll be unhealthy).

There are no such things as bad questions. d(^_~)

?

Weapon choice really matters on the setting of the story and what preference the character likes himself. I see the Bo and Tonfa are pretty popular choices so far (The Boomerang as well). It doesn't matter what personality your character will have when it comes to their wielding weapon. And personality to weapons are just sick generalizations. D: Just choose what you like, do research for the weapons, get a good history going, and have fun with it. XD

and Diokatsu was really close too

Spoiler: ShowHide

[spoiler]

The reason I say this a bad question, not asking for a debate either, is that none of us could possibly suggest anything that would be nearly as self-satisfying as picking one yourself. We no neither the whole story nor the nuance of each respective character and we will no neither unless we were to reside in Spoofus' own mind. The author might reach a point where he remains fixated on a certain point, such as weapon or clothing or mood, but in the end he himself will resolve it. i suggested what was traditional and considering Spoofus picked all those weapons himself he /should/ know of all the possiblities, within reason of course. There is, or should not be, no problem with the story and weapon type relationship as this would defeat the purpose of asking as I'll assume he went through the trouble of making a story, and the weapon was a matter of "cool" or "unique". If the matter is on the "coolness" of said weapon then disregard my statements as my point is moot, seeing as I assume that this is a matter of resolution. Upon being a matter of resolution, I argue that HE is the only one who is capable of creating a solid plot so long as he himself is the creator alone. This is due to the tone an author or creator feels towards their creation, this feeling will determine the outcome of the plot and story as a solid unit as a whole. You seemed to agree with me however, saying he should do his own research and get a good history going, which seemingly states that you would wish him to do this himself while using our votes as an elimination point.

and btw i dont think many people would like to reside in my mind (kinda messy )

but the main purpose of this topic is to which weapon people that are to be players as well, would like to see being used,
and yes i do know that one of the weapons on the list will be used for sure,but lets put it this way all those who vote are helping narrowing down the choices of weapons that are out there.
so please dont take this topic in the wrong way..but you all do have good points on this

oh and on a side note*
the theory that the typical lazy laid back people are sword weilders..is sort of a cliche from movies and anime i think..
im really just trying to stay clear of swords if i can one reason im not really a sword guy

Try some rather onorthodox weapons in that case. Try and be as uncliche as possible. The MOST uncliche are the fan and the tanto. They all have been used a lot but out of those four try and stick with those two if you want to be not as dry with your story.

[Reygekan]

Going out of your way to be original is ridiculous, just use whatever the hell you want and put your own spin on it. Not to say you are, just browsing through some of the comments.

I'm all for polearms, they're fun and pointy.

[Diokatsu]

I'd disagree but I don't want to argue :V

I agree, in the case that the amount of work you put in doesn't really equal the satisfation you feel when you accomplish it. Doing whatever the hell you want and putting your own spin on it can cause someone to go out of their way to make it original, but I digress....What else do I do better?

[Reygekan]

I don't bite

Purposely going out of your way to make something original in terms of anything is really nothing but a hindrance. For example, writing around cliche's. Sometimes, the cliche' needs to be there, because that's where the story is naturally progressing. If I wanted to go out of my way to ensure complete originality, I'd have to change the natural flow of the story I've set up, completely ruining it. When I say do whatever the hell you want, I assume that what you want is a good game

Of course, I'm not saying don't take it seriously, however not doing something because someone else did it first is just silly and eliminates pretty much all your storytelling options. I dont tend to give my main characters normal swords. Not because they're so commonly used, but because they're just boring. I will give a character a sword though, if it's built on a fun concept (Ivy from SC has a bitchin' ass awesome sword in that respect, etc.,) or if it has a really nice design. Fact is, people tend to think in pre-established flows, going out of your way to avoid something you'd otherwise do is just breaking the flow your mind has set up for the story, and probably wont come out right (unless you really know what you're doing).

Putting your own spin on something, however, does not mean going out and looking for something to tack onto an idea, it means taking an idea and giving your interperetation of it. If you have to think hard about it, then really you probably don't have much to add and it's better to just leave the idea as is, as you would seem to like it.

[Diokatsu]

Purposely going out of your way to make something original in terms of anything is really nothing but a hindrance. For example, writing around cliche's. Sometimes, the cliche' needs to be there, because that's where the story is naturally progressing. If I wanted to go out of my way to ensure complete originality, I'd have to change the natural flow of the story I've set up, completely ruining it. When I say do whatever the hell you want, I assume that what you want is a good game

This is entirely dependant on what the story is about. Cliche appears most often in those that have cliche overall plots, E.G. Save the world...Find an interesting plot, or a unique one and you avoid cliches. If you run into cliches, rewrite. Writing IS rewriting and if you bend the plot to avoid cliches, yes, it will be quite a disaster. On the other hand, I would say everytime you hit a cliche, rewrite the story so you avoid it. Just my opinion, which takes work. And who wants to work hard...

Not to say that a good game can't be cliche, just I, as in me, myself and I, would rather throw myself into a pit of bull corpses than hit too many cliche elements.

[Spoofus]

bull corpses...sounds fun hehehe

but from what i can tell is that you all keep going back to storyline cliche stuff...i mean dont get me wrong it is interesting to say the least lol...
but this topic has helped clear something weapon wise that I couldnt make my mind up over
and your all's discussions helped clear some things id never would of realize

[Reygekan]

This is entirely dependant on what the story is about. Cliche appears most often in those that have cliche overall plots, E.G. Save the world...Find an interesting plot, or a unique one and you avoid cliches.

I dare you to try to write a story and not find a cliche' in it. Almost anything is considered cliche' nowadays.

If you run into cliches, rewrite. Writing IS rewriting and if you bend the plot to avoid cliches, yes, it will be quite a disaster. On the other hand, I would say everytime you hit a cliche, rewrite the story so you avoid it. Just my opinion, which takes work. And who wants to work hard...

But then you're going against the natural flow, you'd have to alter entire characters or events- and then you're just ruining what you're trying to get across. It'd be better to just work with the cliche to start!

[Blizzard]

Also, people want stuff they have seen already, they are familiar with. They don't want completely original things. They scare them. They make them feel stupid. Clichés are good if you keep them to a minimum and make them work for you instead of against you. i.e. When you play an RPG and it's not about saving the world, it's rather boring. i.e. Pokemon's plot was always meh for me. Things like "I have to become the best.", "I have to catch them all." are not as interesting as "OMG, THAT GUY JUST WASTED THE ENTIRE CITY! WE HAVE TO STOP THAT LUNATIC! HE'S GONNA KILL US ALL!" Let's face it, saving the world and fighting against some incredibly powerful insane asshole beats most of plots. Imagine an RPG where your goal is to marry somebody. It would be boring as hell, at least for me. I would go away as soon as I heard that plot summary. In my own game I try to avoid that cliché by hiding the evil guys until 50% of the game and hiding his plans until around 70%-75% of the game. And even then it's not about destroying the universe or taking it over. His plans are different. It's a nice change from the usual plot, but still interesting enough since you have to stop an insane bastard who wants to do something incredibly bad.

[Diokatsu]

I dare you to try to write a story and not find a cliche' in it. Almost anything is considered cliche' nowadays.

It's easy to write a story that isn't cliche, but, as Blizz said, to make it an RPG is basically impossible. I was talking in general.

But then you're going against the natural flow, you'd have to alter entire characters or events- and then you're just ruining what you're trying to get across. It'd be better to just work with the cliche to start!

What you present is a one-sided view of how to go about stories. You seem to think that stories are only hurt from rewriting them. Sure, I won't suggest you go out of your way to keep the plot the same, but half the time your plot is going to be bad the first time around anyways. Rewrite it, from points that you might have invisioned a plot switch. I might even say that saving the world doesn't have to be the "plot". Blizz points out that he put his game in mystery, which really adds another whole elements. In that respect, a cliche is still there but prevent in an entirely different manner. From an RPG stand point a cliche might present itself as a natural thing, but to avoid those and put something original there is a much better way to go about things in my opinion. The natural flow isn't always the best option.

[legacyblade]

Imagine an RPG where your goal is to marry somebody. It would be boring as hell, at least for me. I would go away as soon as I heard that plot summary.

...sounds like Harvest Moon, particularly the GCN one, XD (true, there's farming, but still. XD)

[Reygekan]

It's easy to write a story that isn't cliche, but, as Blizz said, to make it an RPG is basically impossible. I was talking in general.

I said ANY cliche', have you seen the grandmaster lists that are out there? They include: Revenge, Greed, and Insanity as motivators for any bad guy, the first girl you meet falling in love with the hero, childhood couples, having a rich OR poor main character... the list is so long that you WILL run into at least ONE cliche' on some of these lists eventually, unless you purposely go out of your way to avoid them.

What you present is a one-sided view of how to go about stories. You seem to think that stories are only hurt from rewriting them. Sure, I won't suggest you go out of your way to keep the plot the same, but half the time your plot is going to be bad the first time around anyways. Rewrite it, from points that you might have invisioned a plot switch. I might even say that saving the world doesn't have to be the "plot". Blizz points out that he put his game in mystery, which really adds another whole elements. In that respect, a cliche is still there but prevent in an entirely different manner. From an RPG stand point a cliche might present itself as a natural thing, but to avoid those and put something original there is a much better way to go about things in my opinion. The natural flow isn't always the best option.

You have a valid point- some stories are improved from rewrites, actually, all stories are rewritten several times- however they are not rewritten AROUND a character, plot device, or event simply because there's a CLICHE' in it. What Blizz said about changing the cliche' however, is my point exactly. I'm not saying go out of your way to use them, but if they're there use them, and twist them if you can- which is exactly what he did. If you CAN replace a cliche' with something else, and it fits well, go for it. However the natural flow really IS the best thing because when you break it, the reader/viewer/player becomes thrown off, and that's bad in all respects. Changing my evil lunatic clown, which many players will connect to Kefka, into a maneating godhorse would simply be ridiculous. I'm not sure if there ARE any maneating godhorses, so I'm fairly sure my audience wouldn't either, but that doesn't make the change better- the cliche works, you have a motive- the enemy is an insane lunatic sociopath who really pisses you off. Fact of the matter is, the audience will be too stuck on the concept of a maneating godhorse to actually feel any real emotion towards it other than incredulousness.

Originality is good, however going out of your way to avoid cliche's isn't really, put a spin, make it original- a cliche' is only bad if you execute it like a cliche'. If you don't, and you shouldn't, you should have no problem giving your main character a sword, with ridiculous hair, and from a poor or middle class background. Final Fantasy did it. A LOT.

[Starrodkirby86]

I definitely concur with Rey here. Avoiding your way from cliches can be a strategy taken only when the cliche route can be replaced and be better (Say, using a certain cliche to continue the story that isn't the most optimal choice and can be replaced with something innovative).

Some of the most cliched stories ever have excellent plots and are very loved, most notably the Tales of Series. They've been known to contain cliches, especially Symphonia and Abyss. But how did they do so well!? D: Oh wait, let me remember. Ah yes, there are so many likable characters in the game and it has something that all stories should have: A developing character (i.e. Luke fon Fabre).

I honestly don't know what point I'm leading with this, probably a second opinion or something, but meh, that's all right.



Unrelated Information: The recent posts in Spoofus's weapons thread kind of went off-trail. It went from selecting what weapon the main character for Spoofus's game having to the legitimacy of cliches. So that's why this came up. I'm sure this won't turn heated, but I'm keeping eyes on this. XD

[Diokatsu]

I will not be talking in this topic xD

I think avoiding cliches is among the most important story idea you can work on. I'm not going to restate those points. It's clear that myself and Rey both have a different approach and that's fine. I acknowledge that avoiding cliches can ruin the flow of a story for those who don't know how. I hope you acknowledge that the amount of cliches should be a limited number.

[scoace13]

personaly in my opionion  origanalyit is king...because there no excitement no feeling of somthing new...just like when you get a game after you beat it most people are done with it they nolonger want to play because they've seen it or for examples who watches the same movie form begining to end more than once in a few weeks theres just nothing good about repeating somthing unless by repeating it you can make it diffrent. because the more diffrent your game is the more people are going to pickit up and say"hmmmm this is diffrnt it's not like everything else" and they will try it, and thats where good game development comes in.

[Mightylink]

I must admit I've fallen victim to this as well, I am going to try and come up with new things before I get into major making of my game, right now I'm still working on the scripts and events.

[Blizzard]

New things are good, but not too much. i.e. that concept of the maneating godhorse (LOL) could work out. The best way in my opinion would rather be a well-thought combination. Put some things together for the plot, don't execute them as clichés, add some new and original stuff, add some more original concepts and add a few somewhat-typical-but-not-really characters and you're on a good way. You can also make games original by gameplay. i.e. UF in my game is a pretty original idea. I haven't seen a "Party Overdrive System" yet. And even if somebody had that idea before me, it's still a rare thing and can be considered somewhat original. It's not so much about originality but about how sick people are of seeing some stuff over and over. i.e. It's hard to get tired of a character with a sword, ridiculious hair and a cocky humor or some really badass character. xD We RPG games simply love characters like that, it's hard to get tired of them.

[Fantasist]

Well, supposedely non-cliched RPGs are experiments. You may succeed or fail. Some typical characteristics of RPGs are what make them RPGs. The way I see it, any RPG which doesn't look like it was made only to be made, is worth checking out. After that come personal preferences. The same cliched stuff can be presented in an original manner, not like something made up.

[Reygekan]

I do agree you shouldn't have too many cliche's in your story, simply because that if you do than chances are the entire story is becoming cliche and then you must have a problem with the basic structure of the story- it might be TOO familiar. However, some familiarilty is okay, if anything cliche makes the reader/viewer/player more comfortable in their current setting, so we have to remember that when writing. Some games have become very succesful with a buttload of cliche- as previously stated, the Tales of series are a great example.

I would like to say that I don't necessarily like very cliche'd characters or cliche overlying plots, and just cliche elements in a character or a plot, and hopefully something you've at least changed up a bit so thath it feels familiar AND new to the viewer/reader/player.

I'm done now, I've made my point... by that I mean I've repeated the same point ten times and pretended it was an argument. Whatever, bite me.

[Blizzard]

Instead of posting a part of it, then another part, etc.

[Fallen Angel X]

Well, I agree that cliches shouldn't always be worked around. And I'm pretty sure a discussion like this happened quite awhile back. And if I recall I was on the side saying cliches are okay. But anyways I'm straying away from the main point ._. Let's face it. If everyone was original and never used an idea someone else created, there'd be so many original ideas that it would be near impossible not to copy someone. Originality is all good but it's getting harder to become original these days. I mean.. back at some point having the protagonist's hometown being burned down was original and brilliant. Who's to say that maneating horsegods won't become cliche? It's not necessarily bad to have a cliche. And like I said waay back before, a cliche is fine as long as you twist it around well enough.

Just like what rey said, in any story you're bound to hit a cliche. Hell, I think having a male protagonist is considered a tad cliche ._. So what're you going to do? Have a living turd become the protagonist itself? No wait.. that's been done before I think :S

And I disagree with Rey on one thing though. Sometimes you're allowed to have lots of cliches in your story.. Take tales of symphonia(or was it some other tales of game?), it was cliche filled from what I hear but it was still good. And another situation is if it's a comedic rpg. But these are such obvious examples and I agree, too many cliches in a really serious game won't work out to well. But sometimes they're just unavoidable. However to completely avoid them for the sense of being original is stupid.

Also, Blizz is right. You gotta give people what they want but be careful not to give them the wrong cliches ._. Because to be honest.. some are just so overused people might not be able to take your game seriously.