Sharing is Caring

Started by Reno-s--Joker, January 31, 2009, 07:30:00 pm

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Reno-s--Joker

Okay, it's an undeniable fact that you can get the crack for any non-free software you can think of (well maybe not any, but the others usually don't matter) and download almost any song or movie or the like you want, for free, in these (relatively) new beginnings of the internet. This creates a huge problem in terms of money and copyright and crap for the companies and creators behind these things, so here I pose the question:

What does everyone think of the future of software and media on the internet?

My theory is that one of four things will happen:
1) A huge authority will crack down on illegal downloads and half the internet using population gets fined/jailed.  :P
2) In my utopian ideal, absolutely everything will become free.  :haha: Freewares will become so competitive that Commercial products will succumb to their influence, and we will become one big sharing happy family and the world will be grand.  :D
3) Buying things online will become so easy it's like going into a shop anyways, so fewer people will download illegally. Although this will not solve the problem and another solution will replace this one.  :<_<:
4) Some amazing genius like Blizzard will develop an unbreakable code which only he knows how to break and which people would start blackmailing him to get the crack for.  :uhm:

Debate away.  :)

Starrodkirby86

Buying items on the Internet is getting way more popular, especially because of the poor economy. When gas prices were extremely high, I know for a fact there were people who remained in their caverns homes buying products online instead of driving out to stores. It's also some of the only sources to get imported stuff, so as long as the otaku era in animation keeps going on, we know Online stores will prosper.

Quote1) A huge authority will crack down on illegal downloads and half the internet using population gets fined/jailed.   :P
2) In my utopian ideal, absolutely everything will become free.   :haha: Freewares will become so competitive that Commercial products will succumb to their influence, and we will become one big sharing happy family and the world will be grand.  :D
3) Buying things online will become so easy it's like going into a shop anyways, so fewer people will download illegally. Although this will not solve the problem and another solution will replace this one.   :<_<:
4) Some amazing genius like Blizzard will develop an unbreakable code which only he knows how to break and which people would start blackmailing him to get the crack for.   :uhm:

1) If only the government decides to fund and care for that sort of things. If so, then there's definitely a few sites that will begin to close down from it. But it's not their fault, it's the violators' fault...In technicalities. But it's almost like deleting copyrighted material on Youtube. You try to delete, but they just keep coming.
2) Your utopia indeed. :( If only the world was that simple and nice.
3) Yeah. Definitely. (I don't have anything to put here really since my first explanation just said everything).
4) Some hacker WILL find the algorithm to break it. You can always try to create the perfect code, but there will always be someone breaking it. I mean, it's easier to break things than to create or fix them back, isn't it?

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winkio

I think that programs will eventually become more internet dependent for functionality, thus making it easier for developers to control them.  If this does happen, all our computers will enetually be goverened by a online law-force network, which would be a bit awkward...

The other likely scenario is that legit developers race against crackers, each year turning out products with more elaborate encryption and dependency, each time extending the shelf life of their product before it is cracked.  In this case, developers would only expect to make money off of their product for a year or two, tops.

It is a very interesting phenomenon, though.

Reno-s--Joker

QuoteBuying items on the Internet is getting way more popular, especially because of the poor economy. When gas prices were extremely high, I know for a fact there were people who remained in their homes buying products online instead of driving out to stores. It's also some of the only sources to get imported stuff, so as long as the otaku era in animation keeps going on, we know Online stores will prosper.

Oh crap, and we'll all get fat like in Wall-E. XD I just saw some really cheap crap on eBay, and often companies do give discounts for buying online too (sans delivery cost >->). So I guess it is easier. :)
Quotecaverns

:haha: LOL. <3

QuoteIf only the government decides to fund and care for that sort of things. If so, then there's definitely a few sites that will begin to close down from it. But it's not their fault, it's the violators' fault...In technicalities. But it's almost like deleting copyrighted material on Youtube. You try to delete, but they just keep coming.

It's definitely going to be a huge task if they ever do, which is why I doubt that it may happen (at least in the near future anyways). They'd be fighting such a losing battle. :|

QuoteI mean, it's easier to break things than to create or fix them back, isn't it?

Oh... always... D: Most certainly. That was another utopian suggestion from me. XD

Quoteall our computers will enetually be goverened by a online law-force network, which would be a bit awkward...

Ewww.... I am not looking forward to that. D:

QuoteThe other likely scenario is that legit developers race against crackers, each year turning out products with more elaborate encryption and dependency, each time extending the shelf life of their product before it is cracked.  In this case, developers would only expect to make money off of their product for a year or two, tops.

I imagine this is what would be the most immediate solution to the issue. It might be happening now, I have no idea. Making elaborate law systems and whatnot in prevention of illegal activity might take years to structure and/or implement or whatever, so in the mean time I agree that this is a likely scenario. :)

:D Good arguments so far peoples... ^-^

shdwlink1993

Quote from: Reno-s--Joker on January 31, 2009, 07:30:00 pm
1) A huge authority will crack down on illegal downloads and half the internet using population gets fined/jailed.  :P
2) In my utopian ideal, absolutely everything will become free.  :haha: Freewares will become so competitive that Commercial products will succumb to their influence, and we will become one big sharing happy family and the world will be grand.  :D
3) Buying things online will become so easy it's like going into a shop anyways, so fewer people will download illegally. Although this will not solve the problem and another solution will replace this one.  :<_<:
4) Some amazing genius like Blizzard will develop an unbreakable code which only he knows how to break and which people would start blackmailing him to get the crack for.  :uhm:

Debate away.  :)


1) Well, I probably wouldn't have to worry about that. The wonders of quitting while your ahead. I can just go back to using the library for a couple years. Wait for everything to blow over.
2) Best utopian ideal ever. Shame the big companies will never let it happen.
3) I've never been one for internet purchasing. Never seemed as... trustworthy as face-to-face, where you know that you aren't looking at a photoshopped image of some expensive game, and buy a pack of cigarettes and some dog crap. :<_<:
4) Rule number I-Don't-Remember: Nothing is unbreakable. It's all a matter of time. :P
Stuff I've made:




"Never think you're perfect or else you'll stop improving yourself."

"Some people say the glass is half full... some half empty... I just wanna know who's been drinking my beer."

Reno-s--Joker

Quote3) I've never been one for internet purchasing. Never seemed as... trustworthy as face-to-face, where you know that you aren't looking at a photoshopped image of some expensive game, and buy a pack of cigarettes and some dog crap. <_<

LOL AWESOME. <3 I mean, not awesome. That would be really crap... but so possible. Ugh. :X
And it's not like you can go back to the store and punch their face in with a lawsuit any time. :|

QuoteRule number I-Don't-Remember

Probably in the top ten somewhere.... XD

^-^ Thanks for the good reply. :D

Starrodkirby86

On the matter of piracy for games, Electronic Arts has recently incorporated a new sort of security system for their games. This is because of the Internet Connection, but not only that, it's required to register the game on an Internet-able computer. They did this with Spore and Mass Effect...though there's some controversy with it. Not sure, I'm not well-informed of the matter.

It goes something like if the serial key for a certain game has been used for at least three times or so, EA's online security will notice it and cancel activation of the game from that serial key. I guess you can say it's progress.


What's osu!? It's a rhythm game. Thought I should have a signature with a working rank. ;P It's now clickable!
Still Aqua's biggest fan (Or am I?).




Reno-s--Joker

Quote from: Starrodkirby86 on January 31, 2009, 10:28:11 pm
On the matter of piracy for games, Electronic Arts has recently incorporated a new sort of security system for their games. This is because of the Internet Connection, but not only that, it's required to register the game on an Internet-able computer. They did this with Spore and Mass Effect...though there's some controversy with it. Not sure, I'm not well-informed of the matter.

It goes something like if the serial key for a certain game has been used for at least three times or so, EA's online security will notice it and cancel activation of the game from that serial key. I guess you can say it's progress.


I almost forgot about that. And Microsoft Office 07's annoying over-the-phone button pressing crap. But yeah, I can imagine the controversy with the Internet registration. :| I didn't ow my own internet until two years ago.  :<_<:

Now I get to do something that my OCD has been bugging me to do. *power up* :haha:

Starrodkirby86

Quote from: Reno-s--Joker on January 31, 2009, 10:45:24 pm
Now I get to do something that my OCD has been bugging me to do. *power up* :haha:
Is that to power me up to get into the big 100? :xD:

Quote from: shdwlink1993 on January 31, 2009, 09:50:20 pm
4) Rule number I-Don't-Remember: Nothing is unbreakable. It's all a matter of time. :P
I don't remember that rule number as well. It's certainly not in the rulebook of the Internet...But I know it's got to be some law.

I can't find the original source where I learned about the security put onto Spore and Mass Effect. All I'm reading now is that it's called a DRM system (Digital Rights Management) and it validates your game every ten days or so (Which means you must be playing the game online at the tenth day of checkup or something). It is definitely causing some controversy there.

What's osu!? It's a rhythm game. Thought I should have a signature with a working rank. ;P It's now clickable!
Still Aqua's biggest fan (Or am I?).




Reno-s--Joker

QuoteIs that to power me up to get into the big 100? xD

Hell yes! :D And not to mention 100 is a nice, round number to look at. :)

QuoteDRM system (Digital Rights Management)

If I remember correctly than name signifies hell on cyber-earth. :<_<: They implement it in mp3 players (with temporarily free music downloads) too, I'm pretty sure.

Quoteit validates your game every ten days or so (Which means you must be playing the game online at the tenth day of checkup or something)
= |FAIL|. D:
I sure hope everything doesn't end up like that. My anti-virus program's regular updates piss me off enough, and they are actually good for me.

Starrodkirby86

Quote from: Reno-s--Joker on January 31, 2009, 11:41:55 pm
QuoteIs that to power me up to get into the big 100? xD

Hell yes! :D And not to mention 100 is a nice, round number to look at. :)


Aw...Thanks. <3 *Powered-Up for no apparent reason, despite the reason being obvious here*

Yes, I believe I do recall reading that they implemented the DRM thing on iTunes music. Apple has some DRM-free songs according to this news.

There was an article about EA removing or waiving the DRM limitation on Spore for a little. I wonder if it's a curse or a blessing...I mean, is it really helping against the piracy matter?

What's osu!? It's a rhythm game. Thought I should have a signature with a working rank. ;P It's now clickable!
Still Aqua's biggest fan (Or am I?).




Reno-s--Joker

^-^ Pleasure. :D

I just googled it:
Quote from: Some results
Thanks to DRM, Spore is possibly the Most Pirated Game Ever ...
Spore, rated as the most anticipated game of the year, was played down by the DRM, as they encouraged thousands to download copies illegally.

Spore DRM could kill PC gaming | Hardware 2.0 | ZDNet.com
But the DRM built into Spore by EA changes all that and threatens PC gaming as we .... Spore DRM is unreasonable, but won't kill PC gaming

Gaming Steve: Maxis Responds to the Spore DRM Controversy
I have been buying games legitimately for years, but the Spore DRM is .... The current Spore DRM is ENCOURAGING people to go to the pirate sites who would ...

Spore: Class Action Lawsuit Arises Over Spore DRM
24 Sep 2008 ... Whenever you find large numbers of unhappy people you're bound to find a lawyer (lol :D)


Now, I dunno how legit these sites are, but it sounds like a bad reaction to me. :| So bad even the big EA has to succumb to save it's name, I guess. In the business world I'd think sales are more important than the general moral good of society and whatnot. :S

However, iTunes' DRM I haven't heard so much bad stuff about. For some reason I think people are less unhappy to pay 99c for a song or whatever.

Quote from: shdwlink19934) Rule number I-Don't-Remember: Nothing is unbreakable. It's all a matter of time. Tongue

And that reminds me, some people really like the challenge of stubborn programs. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it shdwlink who cracked Windows at a young age...? *is jealous* That's hardcore. <3

Blizzard

The "perfect code" is called like the because it's impossible to create. ;)
Everything can be disassembled and reverse engineered. As shdw said, it's just a matter of time.
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fugibo

Unless it's all hard-coded by M$ into your processor! You'd have to reimplement the entire circuitry, and not even Linus Torvalds is up to that.

Quote
everything was free

Commonly known by the two names "open-source software" or "D00D, COMUNSM!!!!! WE CQN SNIG BEASTS OF ENGLAND THE STAR-SPANGLED BANNER THE INTERNATIONALE ALL DYA LNG!!!! LAWLZ!!!!!! WUR SO 13337!!!!!!"

Reno-s--Joker

@Blizzard:
Quote
QuoteI mean, it's easier to break things than to create or fix them back, isn't it?

Oh... always... D: Most certainly. That was another utopian suggestion from me. XD

:haha: Or rather dystopian. :| Indeed, if something couldn't be destroyed, how could it have been created? Ah, but useless as it is, it doesn't hurt to dream.... XD

@Wcw: Are you serious? I thought I couldn't hate them enough... D:
And lol - I think I like the first name better. ^-^

:) Thanks for the input! <3

Starrodkirby86

Quote
Quote
everything was free

Commonly known by the two names "open-source software" or "D00D, COMUNSM!!!!! WE CQN SNIG BEASTS OF ENGLAND THE STAR-SPANGLED BANNER THE INTERNATIONALE ALL DYA LNG!!!! LAWLZ!!!!!! WUR SO 13337!!!!!!"
Oh yeah, definitely with the second name. I hear it all the time. :V:

Open-Source Software and Freeware are kind of different though...no? I mean, isn't Open-Source software things where you can get the source code and optimize yourself? And Freeware is more like, "It's free to have this, no purchase", but they don't give you any code to edit...Though it's not like I'm knowing what you're comparing to with everything was free anyway. :x

What's osu!? It's a rhythm game. Thought I should have a signature with a working rank. ;P It's now clickable!
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fugibo

February 01, 2009, 11:23:37 pm #16 Last Edit: February 01, 2009, 11:29:34 pm by WcW
Open source is just better than freeware. Mainly because of the fact that people will be looking at the code, so the devs have to actually put effort into it to avoid looking like 'tards :P

That, and when nerds/hackers get their hands on some code...

EDIT: PS
btw, the second is refering to Soviet Russia. I'm calling America and Utopian societies Communist :/

Reno-s--Joker

QuoteOpen source is just better than freeware. Mainly because of the fact that people will be looking at the code, so the devs have to actually put effort into it to avoid looking like 'tards Tongue

I also think that people who suggest improvements to programs can take a look at the code and get educated before they make freaky suggestions. D:
And people who make their stuff open source are obviously proud of their (good) work.
Open source, to me, epitomises one part of the 'sharing' in the debate's topic (... 'caring' is for illegal stuff <3)

shdwlink1993

Quote from: Reno-s--Joker on February 02, 2009, 12:52:45 am
And people who make their stuff open source are obviously proud of their (good) work.


So... Blizzard isn't proud of DREAM. And Microsoft isn't proud of anything they've ever made. :D
Stuff I've made:




"Never think you're perfect or else you'll stop improving yourself."

"Some people say the glass is half full... some half empty... I just wanna know who's been drinking my beer."

Reno-s--Joker

February 02, 2009, 01:26:00 am #19 Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 01:27:48 am by Reno-s--Joker
QuoteSo... Blizzard isn't proud of DREAM.

Aww.... why not? I haven't seen anything else like it. <3

QuoteAnd Microsoft isn't proud of anything they've ever made. :D

Lol, they're open source? D:
Anyways. HEAR HEAR. :shifty:

Blizzard

Quote from: WcW on February 01, 2009, 09:33:00 pm
Unless it's all hard-coded by M$ into your processor! You'd have to reimplement the entire circuitry, and not even Linus Torvalds is up to that.

Quote
everything was free

Commonly known by the two names "open-source software" or "D00D, COMUNSM!!!!! WE CQN SNIG BEASTS OF ENGLAND THE STAR-SPANGLED BANNER THE INTERNATIONALE ALL DYA LNG!!!! LAWLZ!!!!!! WUR SO 13337!!!!!!"


o.o; The perfect code is related to encryption, not to a computer instruction set. As I said, it's not possible.

Quote from: Reno-s--Joker on February 02, 2009, 12:52:45 am
And people who make their stuff open source are obviously proud of their (good) work.
Open source, to me, epitomises one part of the 'sharing' in the debate's topic (... 'caring' is for illegal stuff <3)


Actually it has nothing to do with that. In fact I've seen a lot of open source stuff that is simply crap. :/ A lot of open source activists don't really have an idea about programming and even if they do, they mostly don't have the proper education to use it well. One of the worst things I have seen with open source projects was the incredible lack of proper documentation. Whenever I have to use an open source library I end up going through the code and cursing the author's mom 5 times a minute because I can't find the shit I'm looking for, because he was a lazy ass and didn't type down any documentation. That's very irresponsible.
"Why should I use YOUR open source software if I have to go through the code to learn how it works? I'd rather make my own especially because of the fact that 90% of the stuff I go through turns out to be so badly made that it's way less work to make my own library or system rather than fixing up yours."

Sharing is cool, but there's a reason why most open source software is free as well. Keep that in mind. (With closed source the replication and theft of code is made harder than with open source.) Just take a look at RMXP's scripts. How many crappy scripts are out there? You don't wanna know. And they are all open source. Now, how many people so far have managed to reverse-engineer DREAM so far? And I'm not talking about decrypting the fake .dll and simply using the decryption code, I am asking for the manual decryption of an encrypted file and reverse-engineering the encryption algorithm using that file or more files.
My scripts are open source because I wanted to share them. The scripts in my game are not open source because I don't want to share them. I don't want people to be easily able to replicate what I have done, what took me years to do. How would you feel if you put 3 years of your life into a game and a month after you release it, you find a clone on the internet using the same engine claiming to be completely original? They shamelessly STOLE your game and there's not much about it that you can do. There will always be somebody who will try to steal it if you don't protect yourself and closed source is one of the safest protections that there are because it's somewhat of an encryption.

*stops*
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Reno-s--Joker

@ Blizzard: I understand. I see that my lack of position as a coder has led me to draw a wrong conclusion. Perhaps it is more the opposite to what I said, then. ^-^

This I think is true theft, and really enrages me. Closed source commercial programs can just get pissed over money losses when their products get 'stolen', but open source freewares get pissed over something much deeper - like you said, the 3 years of your hard work and life.
NAMKOR's awesome illustration (<3) probably applies to these closed source things. :haha:

I have a question which I'm not sure of what the answer is: would open source programmers share their codes in order to improve them? Or something else? :???:

QuoteNow, how many people so far have managed to reverse-engineer DREAM so far?

... are you not proud of DREAM? :o I sure as hell would be... :)

Blizzard

Of course I'm proud of DREAM. Not because of what I accomplished but of what I learned how things can be done. :)

Also, yeah. Open Source programmers share their code out of different reasons. One of the is that others can easily alter the code to suit their needs. Another one would be (like you said) for others' suggestions of improvement. I like to release code as Open Source myself if I don't intend on selling the resulting application. DREAM is not Open Source because the encryption is based on an algorithm rather than a key. Algorithm encryptions are broken the instant somebody discovers the algorithm so I had to hide it. It's true that I didn't put much effort into hiding the code, but it will keep amateurs at bay anytime. xD
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

shdwlink1993

Totally. It would keep amateurs away from using it. (However, if that amateur is using VX, they have no choice but to break the dll just to use it. (WHY, oh Enterbrain, WHY would you REMOVE the require function from VX? WHY???? >:() )
Stuff I've made:




"Never think you're perfect or else you'll stop improving yourself."

"Some people say the glass is half full... some half empty... I just wanna know who's been drinking my beer."

Blizzard

They did WHAT?! O_O But that's completely stupid. You can't use any external .dll then. D:
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Starrodkirby86

I guess Enterbrain isn't showing that Sharing is Caring by removing external DLL support. :V:

On the DREAM Note, I think it's time to start optimizing the code or upping its security...though you don't really NEED to do that. Unless...you're like shdwlink. ;)

What's osu!? It's a rhythm game. Thought I should have a signature with a working rank. ;P It's now clickable!
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fugibo

They were also pretty dumb about how they removed the ability to require *.so files. For those who don't know, they allow for much better extension than any other option in Ruby, plus a lot of stuff (like networking) had to be re-implemented for RMXP just because they couldn't load the pre-made stuff that comes with Ruby (and is free to use).

Reno-s--Joker

QuoteOf course I'm proud of DREAM. Not because of what I accomplished but of what I learned how things can be done. Happy

Also, yeah. Open Source programmers share their code out of different reasons. One of the is that others can easily alter the code to suit their needs. Another one would be (like you said) for others' suggestions of improvement. I like to release code as Open Source myself if I don't intend on selling the resulting application. DREAM is not Open Source because the encryption is based on an algorithm rather than a key. Algorithm encryptions are broken the instant somebody discovers the algorithm so I had to hide it. It's true that I didn't put much effort into hiding the code, but it will keep amateurs at bay anytime. xD

That's a really good attitude to have. You might get really inflated if you're proud of what you achieve instead. :|Not cool.
I never thought of the code alteration (probably because I've never had the skills to do it XD) but yeah, that makes it awesome! <3

I understand - keeping stuff you intend for commercial sales closed is perfectly logical. I think even if people requested it from you (because they think it's awesome or something) and just say WOW, YOU'RE AWESOME for about 5 seconds, it won't be enough appreciation for all your hard work. Especially considering most RMXP Scripts are just plug-in-and-don't-know-what's-going-on. Like good things become cliche, awesome stuff gets forgotten if everyone can use it anytime.

.... I think I'm one of those amateurs. :haha:


...
^-^; I'm not going to lie... you all lost me on the dll stuff. :|
But from what I can hear I'm glad I didn't go with VX in the end. :)

shdwlink1993

The dll stuff was about DREAM.dll. There's no way to use it in VX short of getting the code from the dll. That also makes for a large amount of holes in certain things people like doing with their scripts.

@NAMK: LOL @ The Piracy Guide.
Stuff I've made:




"Never think you're perfect or else you'll stop improving yourself."

"Some people say the glass is half full... some half empty... I just wanna know who's been drinking my beer."

Reno-s--Joker

D: Gee, to what purpose of Enterbrain's? :o
Sometimes they do make strange decisions between the versions I don't understand. :|

^-^ Thanks for explaining shdwlink. <3
:D

Blizzard

I think that they pretty much limited themselves and their customers by not allowing the use of external .dlls. :/
Check out Daygames and our games:

King of Booze 2      King of Booze: Never Ever
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

fugibo

I'm gonna release a closed-source module for RGame that will allow for encrypted games :/ Fortunately, the LGPL allows this