Split from: Rock or Hop?

[Diokatsu]

Domo arigatou Rose.

[fugibo]

...I'm talking about the actual music. Not the origins, not the culture, the music. You proved absolutely nothing by bringing up origins of it. I'm talking about the actual rhythm and notes I am hearing. Yes, the music may be very interesting culture wise, but I'm talking about the actual music.

[RoseSkye]

...I'm talking about the actual music. Not the origins, not the culture, the music. You proved absolutely nothing by bringing up origins of it. I'm talking about the actual rhythm and notes I am hearing. Yes, the music may be very interesting culture wise, but I'm talking about the actual music.

You're talking about the complexities of music.. so was I. My point was to prove how complex each genre is in the grand picture.. which I have proved.

Do you not see life as complex? In science we all came from the same source however there are many, many types of life on the planet with many many different tastes and upbringings. To address life as simple.. or music as simple is robbing it of it's history. For my friend, music is not simple, it is all complex. Just because your personal tastes lean in one direction does not mean you can blatantly state your opinion as a fact. I state this void of bias, of either genre. The reason I state this is for the same reason I lashed MetaKnight for his disregard of logic..


and I move that this thread may be split into debate.

[Diokatsu]

You say that that rap is less complex, which is why Rose started this debate. What does it matter which is more complex? That doesn't prove anything, not the in the least a better sound.
This cannot be moved into debate because all this thread is about is an opinion. I know I was just a big part of it as you all but, any more debate and I'd have to request a mod to lock this thread for digression or moving it in spam.

[fugibo]

Okay, LAST TIME, the music, not the genre. The complexity of the sine waves and the picture they form. Nothing else, just how mathematically, rhythmically, and interestingly complex each genre is on average. I'm okay with you supporting rap and I understand that all music is, in a sense, complex, but that's not what I'm talking about. Please move your debate from me to someone who actually disagrees. And, if I were a mod, this would already be SPAM'd or Debate'd *hint*

[RoseSkye]

Okay, LAST TIME, the music, not the genre. The complexity of the sine waves and the picture they form. Nothing else, just how mathematically, rhythmically, and interestingly complex each genre is on average. I'm okay with you supporting rap and I understand that all music is, in a sense, complex, but that's not what I'm talking about. Please move your debate from me to someone who actually disagrees. And, if I were a mod, this would already be SPAM'd or Debate'd *hint*

You're now clinging to opinion as if it was a cradle.

It seems that you understand me supporting rap. While I thank you for the understanding as I stated to Meta; if this was said about rock I would also chew those people out. I'm American, this land was founded on an simple statement "all are equal". The constitution states you have a right to free speech, however.. your statement is the equivalent of saying 2+2 = 22. You're saying that my two cents which I have lay foundation in cemented facts and your two cents which is blatantly your opinion which is constructed out of straw(man) can co-exist with eachother without collapsing.

Your statement is.. rock is complex, rap isn't as equally complex. The sound of music (to your palette) is more complex than rap.. However, I could someone who is partisan to rap and they will say "Rap is more complex than Rock".. which you both would be wrong.

That is an example called eye of the beholder. One mans trash is anothers treasure.

However, my statement was music in general is all complex due to its history.. even polka.

Polka: ShowHide

The polka is a lively Central European dance and also a genre of dance music familiar throughout Europe and the Americas. It originated in the middle of the 19th century in the Czech lands and is still a common genre in Swedish, Lithuanian, Czech, Polish, German, Hungarian, Austrian, Russian, Slovenian and Slovakian folk music....

....The name comes from the Czech word půlka - literally, "little half" - a reference to the short half-steps featuring in the dance. The word's familiar form has been influenced by the similarity to the Czech word polka, meaning "Polish woman".[1] The name has led to the dance's origin being sometimes mistakenly attributed to Poland.

To even state that one genre is more sophisticated than another is foolish.. because its opinionated bullocks.

Once again, I like Rock because it's my style. Hip-hop/rap are okay too, but I personally don't see them as true music (yes, they are music, but its kind of basic in most cases, unlike Classical/Country/Rock/etc, which usually are much more complex). Lyrics aren't that important to a genre -- some Rock/Pop songs make the worst of Hip Hop look godly.

There is no way you can back-peddle out of this WcW. There is two ways out of this.. neither will shake the solidarity of my statements. This is locked (or you don't post when I call you out on obviously erroneous statements), or you realize the folly of your statements.

[Starrodkirby86]

This can't be moved to SPAM. This discussion is pretty serious (Not in terms of importance and all, but too serious to be in SPAM), but you guys are really taking a lot of things way more than it is, heh. It honestly does make it able to be a debate, even if it's kind of...silly. <_<;

But moving is moving~

Some posts related to the actual poll is there, but the ones relating to this debate shall be moved. -3-;

By the way, there's good reason for this to be in Intelligent Debate. This is a debate. We all know that. It's been said >9000 times. And it's Intelligent. (Well, maybe not, but you get the point)

[Diokatsu]

Okay, LAST TIME, the music, not the genre. The complexity of the sine waves and the picture they form. Nothing else, just how mathematically, rhythmically, and interestingly complex each genre is on average.

Fine. Classical wins. Electronic is much more rhythmically experiemental than rock, so it gets second. Rock all just 4/4 anyways. Nothing even remotely complex about it in a rhythmic sense. To judge music by mathametics seems unimportant. No one is going to bothering arguing with you. Interesting is in the eyes of the beholder.

[fugibo]

Okie dokie, I've decided that this isn't worth continuing, since Rose obviously doesn't understand that the complexity isn't actually opinion-based in this context, but w/e.

@dio: Hey, sometimes they go 5/4 or 3/4.... they mix it up every once in a while :V

[Tazero]

Rap is potentially the most meaningful genre of music. Rock and hip-hop have nothing over the politcal stances of older rap music. Rap began as a political statement, expressing discontent. It has turned into such a mess of sex, drugs and violence today that we forget those roots. Rock started as a form of country music. It has been transformed into something of a sex symbol in most cases.
And this:

So am I-
Still waiting?-
For this world to stop hating-
can't find a-
Good reason-
Can't find hope to believe in-

That's just crappy pacifism as an excuse to try and convince people that they actually care about what is going on. Music with lyrics like those don't actually have a unqiue message it wants spread. It's all repetitive.

Rock is also pretty broad. I can think of so many sub-genres of rock that it's impossible to pin which kind you mean. Name a specific genre.

A specific genre? Punk , Punk is a political staement stating their beliefs. Still Waiting - Telling the world to stop war as they see fit, stop fighting

[RoseSkye]

*Ahem*

"Once again, I like Rock because it's my style. Hip-hop/rap are okay too, but I personally don't see them as true music (yes, they are music, but its kind of basic in most cases, unlike Classical/Country/Rock/etc, which usually are much more complex). Lyrics aren't that important to a genre -- some Rock/Pop songs make the worst of Hip Hop look godly."

No matter how much I read this statement  which started the debate I can not see anything even hinting at Sine waves.

"Classical: True music
Country: Idiot lyrics, but they're good at the guitar at least
Rock: It depends, but usually very good at both the instruments and lyrics

I was grouping together the genres that have complex music."

Once again.. nothing hinting at sine waves..

"Okay, LAST TIME, the music, not the genre. The complexity of the sine waves and the picture they form. Nothing else, just how mathematically, rhythmically, and interestingly complex each genre is on average. I'm okay with you supporting rap and I understand that all music is, in a sense, complex, but that's not what I'm talking about. Please move your debate from me to someone who actually disagrees. And, if I were a mod, this would already be SPAM'd or Debate'd *hint*"

Only when you were on your last leg had you added that.. as if you had reiterated something I had ignored.

Now if you want to debate Sine waves. I shall applaud you. With this only does your argument stand any ground.. (be it not sturdy, and barren of any fruit)

Spoiler: ShowHide

This wave pattern occurs often in nature, including ocean waves, sound waves, and light waves. Also, a rough sinusoidal pattern can be seen in plotting average daily temperatures for each day of the year, although the graph may resemble an inverted cosine wave.

Graphing the voltage of an alternating current gives a sine wave pattern. In fact, graphing the voltage of direct current full-wave rectification system gives an absolute value sine wave pattern, where the wave stays on the positive side of the x-axis.

Spoiler: ShowHide

The human ear can recognize single sine waves because sounds with such a waveform sound "clean" or "clear" to humans; some sounds that approximate a pure sine wave are whistling, a crystal glass set to vibrate by running a wet finger around its rim, and the sound made by a tuning fork.

References Dragonforce or Hendrix.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmU2R9lTivY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyV-VeCJmVU

Yet you're relying on spoken word rap.. and that isn't fair as as you're comparing one sub genre to combat another sub genre.

Now if I focused on a genre of a hip hop that can stand on equal footing in sine wave complexity with Instrumental Rock. Your argument would be debunked.. which I will.

Lets say um... table turners

DJing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXmfleawFHM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPasebVMIW4

Now..  in terms of complexity they are more equal contenders with a different style of music.


EDIT:
Blah.. I'm too sick read a friggin essay to prove a point (that wasn't presented at first).
He may have me when it comes to sine waves. Well.. we'll see. This should be outlawed.. changing points in debating is very dishonorable.

Shit I was wrong.. I admit defeat for the moment. Even recorded human speech isn't a sinewave.. unless converted.
Pisses me off that you would go so low as to insert something that wasn't originally implied... whatever.


You may have a point with complexity of sine waves .. but I can easily point toward several things that can topple that.

You know.. a simple whistle in a song can produce a sinewave. I am very angry that you made me listen to this shit just to prove a point.

The Whistle Song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfPKqoFo1dY&feature=related

2 Short - Blow my whistle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUVfDvIP2EQ&feature=related


Also applying guitars to rap.

Party Like a RockStar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMgxgPN2LY4

Linkin Park  - High Voltage (Also.. LP applies record scratching to their rap.. which gives them an advantage over rock)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRmyPVqIyBQ&feature=PlayList&p=1D673CA801DC55C8&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=11

D-12 - Fight Music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II6ZZ_nhGCA&feature=PlayList&p=1D673CA801DC55C8&index=14


I could post others .. but I'm done. If you have any other arguments present them.

[fugibo]

*ignores huge block of text*

I might not have made it clear at the beginning, but that's what I meant every time I used "complex." So.... yeah. Like I said, some genres are truly more complex, even at the lowest level. See? I'm not ignorant, like I said. So please, realize that I'm not arguing with you.

[RoseSkye]

*ignores huge block of text*

I might not have made it clear at the beginning, but that's what I meant every time I used "complex." So.... yeah. Like I said, some genres are truly more complex, even at the lowest level. See? I'm not ignorant, like I said. So please, realize that I'm not arguing with you.

http://forum.chaos-project.com/index.php?action=shout_archive;start=20

Today at 04:36:02 AM RoseSkye - (Secret: I hate rap.. with a passion.)
Today at 04:34:00 AM RoseSkye - I get it too.. but it's opinion and he failed to let it be known. I would have no problem if he said "in my opinion" however.. he didn't so.. in my eyes he believes it to be fact. That's where debate territory lies.. and I hope he doesn't stop.. cuz I like debating .
Today at 04:30:46 AM Elite Four Starrodkirby86 - I can see where WcW would get the part where Rap is less complex than Rock, but Rap in its own way is complex. The lyrics, the music, all that stuff. From that viewpoint there...they're complex in their own ways. But...whatever, I'm not going to debate in the shoutbox.
Today at 04:26:52 AM RoseSkye - My point -if you're talking about the rap vs rock argument- was at first was when WcW said that rap wasn't as complex as rock: That's opinion. Anything that branches out from one genre and sounds -completely- different must be complex. My sine wave point is: That's irrelevant, rap can easily be as complex as rock by simply changing instruments.

If you really wanted to end the debate you would state that it is your opinion.. and my argument would shatter. Yet, You're still saying that a genre can be more complex.

"I am very angry that you made me listen to this shit just to prove a point."

[tSwitch]

you're all wrong.

[RoseSkye]

you're all wrong.

fuck ... and the winner of this debate is...

Spoiler: ShowHide

Peach!



Oh, did I win?

[Diokatsu]

you're all wrong.

It is.

[Tazero]

A political statement to the goverment such as
Sum 41
Blink 182(not as much)
SOAD
GBT
STTR
so on so forth
it uses profanity not as much as Rap / other genres alike, I can actually understand what they say not direct, but withing the lyrics and ear pleasingness not arythimatic or dissonant but pleasing

[Diokatsu]

Educate yourself

Rock and rap have political statements, we got that. Now it comes down to which we like better. Rock can be good. I love System of a Down. They have political statements, yes. But I also listen to Rage, Public Enemy and Tupac. They do, too. And rap has been protesting long before rock has. Sum 41 isn't really rock btw. :x

Sleep Now in the Fire: ShowHide

Video
Lyrics:
The world is my expense
The cost of my desire
Jesus blessed me with its future
And I protect it with fire
So raise your fists
And march around
Just don't take what you need
I'll jail and bury those committed
And smother the rest in greed
Crawl with me into tomorrow
Or I'll drag you to your grave
I'm deep inside your children
They'll betray you in my name

Hey, hey
Sleep now in the fire

Hey, hey
Sleep now in the fire

The lie is my expense
The scope of my desire
The party blessed me with its future
And I protect it with fire
I am the Nina The Pinta The Santa Maria
The noose and the rapist
The fields overseer
The agent of orange
The priests of Hiroshima
The cost of my desire
Sleep now in the fire

Hey, hey
Sleep now in the fire

Hey, hey
Sleep now in the fire

For it's the end of history
It's caged and frozen still
There is no other pill to take
So swallow the one
That made you ill
The Nina The Pinta The Santa Maria
The noose and the rapist
The fields overseer
The agent of orange
The priests of Hiroshima
The cost of my desire
To Sleep now in the fire

NOW THAT IS SUM POLITICAL PROTEST MUSIC! XD

[Tazero]

Political statement about povery much?

underclass Hero: ShowHide

1..2..3..4
Well I won't be caught living in a dead end job
While praying to my government guns and gods
Now it's us against them
We're here to represent
To spit right in the face of the establishment.

And now i dont believe (ain't got no faith in nothing)
Stand on my own (ain't got no sympathy)
Wasting the youth (while being young and useless)
Speak for yourself (and dont pray for me)

Well because we're doing fine
And we don't need to be told
That we're here doing fine
Cause we won't give you control
And we don't need anything from you
Cause we'll be just fine
And we won't be bought and sold
Just like you

(A call across the underclass)

Calling out loud with no respect
I'm not the one, just another reject
I'm the voice to offend, All those who pretend
Unsung against the grain I'm here to rise against

And now i'm desensitized ( I state my place in nowhere)
Burning the flag (of the degeneration)
Everyone see (the anthem of no future)
Down with the mass (causes we're not listening)

Well because we're doing fine
And we don't need to be told
That we're here doing fine
Cause we won't give you control
And we don't need anything from you
Cause we'll be just fine
And we won't be bought and sold
Just like you

May I have your attention please...
I pledge allegiance to the underclass as your hero at large.

1..2..3..4

We're the saints of degeneration
We don't owe anyone an explanation
Fuck elitists
We don't need this
We're the elite of the just alright

Well because we're doing fine
And we don't need to be told
That we're here doing fine
Cause we won't give you control
And we don't need anything from you
Cause we'll be just fine
And we won't be bought and sold
Just like you

[Diokatsu]

it uses profanity not as much as Rap / other genres alike

My song had no profanity. And what band is that?