Is he really helping?

Started by fugibo, June 19, 2009, 09:51:18 pm

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fugibo

I didn't think he was doing that bad of a job until I saw the "New GM" ads.

Which weren't really that bad; they sure beat the Pizza Hut and Subway ads I've seen.

...until I realized they weren't advertising a product.

...and then I realized that they were paid for by taxpayers.

...and that I was a taxpayer.

...and that they never asked us about ANY of this.

Is anyone else mad about this kind of crap? And I'm very, very insulted that our opinions don't matter to him, and that he feels that we should show him our support for no reason. I thought that we were the ones he was working for?

(it's Obama, guys, Obama)

Blizzard

My honest opinion? Things are going to get rough, REALLY rough. Capitalism will crush within the next years and chaos will come over the lands (lol, peotic). Obama is yet another politician. And his mission is to fill his own pockets before the system crashes.

This post is NOT sarcastic or meant to be funny. I'm being serious.
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Arkaea Halfdemon

Most people would disagree that he's helping. But then again, the situation that the US is in is hard to help.

I'm fairly neutral to it, in any case, due to my residence being the Great White Northern Republic of the United States of Canadia.

Vell

well, if you look at the world's history, it does make sense, in a way. Economic systems are constantly being proven and replaced as time goes by. Capitalism may well be reaching it's decline. I mean, communism has died already.

fugibo

Quote from: Blizzard on June 19, 2009, 09:55:08 pm
My honest opinion? Things are going to get rough, REALLY rough. Capitalism will crush within the next years and chaos will come over the lands (lol, peotic). Obama is yet another politician. And his mission is to fill his own pockets before the system crashes.

This post is NOT sarcastic or meant to be funny. I'm being serious.


Totally agreed. Almost completely because this generation has way too many idiots who don't understand that Communism == BAD STUFFZ (not that it's unsound, I actually support it, but America is THE capitalist country, and it's potential is very obvious in our success in the late 20th century -- of course, China pulls off Communism pretty well, and they're definitely the next world power)

Quote from: Arkaea Halfdemon on June 19, 2009, 09:55:36 pm
Most people would disagree that he's helping. But then again, the situation that the US is in is hard to help.

I'm fairly neutral to it, in any case, due to my residence being the Great White Northern Republic of the United States of Canadia.


Canada = Reliant on America for trade (NAFTA, anyone?), so I don't think you'll be too happy if capitalism takes a nosedive.

Quote from: UltaFlame on June 19, 2009, 09:57:23 pm
well, if you look at the world's history, it does make sense, in a way. Economic systems are constantly being proven and replaced as time goes by. Capitalism may well be reaching it's decline. I mean, communism has died already.


Yes, because China doesn't exist at all :V


Vell

Cuba as well, but the major communist power(the U.S.S.R) has already collapsed. Communism just isn't flexible.

fugibo

Quote from: UltaFlame on June 19, 2009, 10:01:27 pm
Cuba as well, but the major communist power(the U.S.S.R) has already collapsed. Communism just isn't flexible.


Yes, '89. I'm familiar with world history. But if you'll read my post: "China is the next world power..." Very common prediction amongst historians, theologians (relating to mentions in Revelations), realistic politicians, etc.

Blizzard

Quote from: Longfellow on June 19, 2009, 09:58:17 pm
China pulls off Communism pretty well, and they're definitely the next world power)


And that scares me. Each world power took more and more bad stuff with it.
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Arkaea Halfdemon

Anyone's opinions on the New World Order, and Illuminati? They're said to be coming into power after the economic collapse.



fugibo

Quote from: Arkaea Halfdemon on June 19, 2009, 10:03:49 pm
Anyone's opinions on the New World Order, and Illuminati? They're said to be coming into power after the economic collapse.





Err... bullcrap? If history has shown us anything, it's that "New World Orders" NEVER happen. EVER. Not even Alex pulled that one off (came close, though)

Arkaea Halfdemon

I don't know about bullcrap. The US might try it. There's no denying that it would be unsuccessful, but it's possible that someone will attempt it.

fugibo

Quote from: Arkaea Halfdemon on June 19, 2009, 10:08:46 pm
I don't know about bullcrap. The US might try it. There's no denying that it would be unsuccessful, but it's possible that someone will attempt it.


No, no way. We're all apologetic sissies now, remember? And we're *Muslim.* (Note: I don't care about your religion, America has ALWAYS been either Christian or Deist, and there's no denying it)

Vell

It has. why do you think everyone swears on the bible? I swear not to tell a lie in this court. I swear in my presidency on the bible!

Arkaea Halfdemon

That's not all we are, Longfellow. Some Americans deny our even existance. I once came across an American map where, north of the US, was nothing but an ocean.

:urgh:

fugibo

Quote from: Arkaea Halfdemon on June 19, 2009, 11:00:02 pm
That's not all we are, Longfellow. Some Americans deny our even existance. I once came across an American map where, north of the US, was nothing but an ocean.

:urgh:


Maybe because it was only supposed to be a map of America...? I don't see anything wrong with only putting one country on a map, sorry. At least we're not pulling a Berlin Conference/Congress of Vienna on you, so be happy! :V

Arkaea Halfdemon


Diokatsu

Nope. The political middle will never, ever succeed in such situation. What we need is extreme government action to eliminate all sort of uneccessary and inefficient parts of the economy and get it back on it's feet. We can't back off now seeing as we've already dug a hole with all of the taxpayers' money going into these corporations. I'm guessing we need a much tighter hold on business in general to sort these issues out with wasting the time and money of the American people. Good thing I'm not a tax payer though. XD

Also, Canada is a Neo-Fascist Communist Regime with Islamic undertones. They need to die! :V:

Um, China isn't really communist guys. Take this from a socialist. They're trying to pull of capitalism while maintain a facade of communist policy, something that is doomed to fail. There aren't any true communist states in the world. They're all fascist moreorless.

Blizzard

Just to add something on what I said earlier...

When Obama is done with the pocket filling and if capitalism collapses along with the monetary system and we maybe create a new social system, I would LOVE to see his face when he realizes that he wasted his time. <3 (Zeitgeist anyone?)
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Hellfire Dragon

I'd love to see a goverment that isn't corrupted in any way... <_<

fugibo

Quote from: Hellfire Dragon on June 22, 2009, 11:26:32 am
I'd love to see a goverment that isn't corrupted in any way... <_<


Eloi.

Blizzard

As long as the monetary system exists, that's not possible. Governments support their companies in order to keep their economy well. If the companies do well, the economy improves which makes the economy of a country improve and that's the government's goal. Since all companies are focused on profit which is based on maximum exploitation of human labor and maximizing profit by selling lowest possible quality at the highest prices, we have quite a problem. Why low quality? Imagine you buy a cellphone that has a durability of 50 years that has maximum capabilities today and you don't need anything else. You probably won't ever buy another one. That's not the companies goal. They want you to buy another cellphone next year so they produce low quality material which they use to make cellphones.
As long as everything stays this way, it is impossible to have a government that is not corrupted.
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fugibo

Quote from: Blizzard on June 23, 2009, 05:13:00 am
As long as the monetary system exists, that's not possible. Governments support their companies in order to keep their economy well. If the companies do well, the economy improves which makes the economy of a country improve and that's the government's goal. Since all companies are focused on profit which is based on maximum exploitation of human labor and maximizing profit by selling lowest possible quality at the highest prices, we have quite a problem. Why low quality? Imagine you buy a cellphone that has a durability of 50 years that has maximum capabilities today and you don't need anything else. You probably won't ever buy another one. That's not the companies goal. They want you to buy another cellphone next year so they produce low quality material which they use to make cellphones.
As long as everything stays this way, it is impossible to have a government that is not corrupted.


And Communism tends to just get corrupt. So yeah, we're all screwed.

Diokatsu

Quote from: Longfellow on June 23, 2009, 08:20:57 am
Quote from: Blizzard on June 23, 2009, 05:13:00 am
As long as the monetary system exists, that's not possible. Governments support their companies in order to keep their economy well. If the companies do well, the economy improves which makes the economy of a country improve and that's the government's goal. Since all companies are focused on profit which is based on maximum exploitation of human labor and maximizing profit by selling lowest possible quality at the highest prices, we have quite a problem. Why low quality? Imagine you buy a cellphone that has a durability of 50 years that has maximum capabilities today and you don't need anything else. You probably won't ever buy another one. That's not the companies goal. They want you to buy another cellphone next year so they produce low quality material which they use to make cellphones.
As long as everything stays this way, it is impossible to have a government that is not corrupted.


And Communism tends to just get corrupt. So yeah, we're all screwed.

Anarchy never corrupts. <3 D=

Everything eventually falls apart if not maintained. The capitalist economic order was bound to fall. That's how capitalism works, in cycles of good and bad.

fugibo

Yes. Which is what I've been saying all along: LEAVE IT ALONE. IT'LL FIX ITSELF. DEAL WITH LIFE IN THE MEANTIME.

Diokatsu

People when doing well:
"BACK OFF! I CAN HANDLE MY LIFE JUST FINE! OF COURSE I WON'T HELP ANYONE ELSE, THEY'RE JUST LAZY!"

People when life sucks:
"PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE HELP! I'M SORRY I DIDN'T HELP OTHER PEOPLE BUT I LEARNED MY LESSON!"

People are so bogus.

Ryex

Quote from: Diokatsu on June 23, 2009, 01:38:44 pm
People when doing well:
"BACK OFF! I CAN HANDLE MY LIFE JUST FINE! OF COURSE I WON'T HELP ANYONE ELSE, THEY'RE JUST LAZY!"

People when life sucks:
"PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE HELP! I'M SORRY I DIDN'T HELP OTHER PEOPLE BUT I LEARNED MY LESSON!"

People are so bogus.


are you saying your any better? there is not much that I can offer here and that is this,
capitalism = best possible long term money system that allows for technological advancement. let's face it, if not for capitalism 99% of today tech would not exist yet.
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Diokatsu

Quote from: Ryexander on June 23, 2009, 02:06:06 pm
Quote from: Diokatsu on June 23, 2009, 01:38:44 pm
People when doing well:
"BACK OFF! I CAN HANDLE MY LIFE JUST FINE! OF COURSE I WON'T HELP ANYONE ELSE, THEY'RE JUST LAZY!"

People when life sucks:
"PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE HELP! I'M SORRY I DIDN'T HELP OTHER PEOPLE BUT I LEARNED MY LESSON!"

People are so bogus.


are you saying your any better? there is not much that I can offer here and that is this,
capitalism = best possible long term money system that allows for technological advancement. let's face it, if not for capitalism 99% of today tech would not exist yet.

Who said I was better? But I completely disagree with your opinion of Capitalism. Capitalism is idealistic. It expects everyone to be innovative, fair and work hard towards satisfying demands. Do you honestly think people are so good? There is no perfect system of economics, but I would rather have Socialism first off. Socialism requires that industry be innovative, lest it be discarded. It's a strict government regulation that allows for powerful economic growth directed by the people who lead our country. It's unity and cohesion between the economic, the people and the government, something that our country has none of. Socialism is an activeand sweeping central power that demands a productive economy. Don't kid yourself into thinking free trade is a true way to gain prfit. Profit is gained by innovation, innovation is gained by funding neccessary research. The government has the power and the resources to alter and shape our economy into what is neccessary to survive. People left to themselves without a common goal cannot be trusted to perform. They will do whatever they can to make it to the top, while others fall after them. Capitalism is innately corrupt. It's founding idea is greed. People want more so they'll do more. But people are smarter than that. There are plenty of ways to get around regulations especially when they are so laxly enforced.

Blizzard

Exactly. The founding idea of capitalism is greed. The big flaw of socialsm, though, is that there is no pure socialism. All that we have seen during history is communism and they are not the same thing. Socialism by itself is not corrupted, but the "implementations" of socialism are. People often confuse those two terms and automatically think that socialism is bad while it's actually communism that is bad.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

winkio

Sorry to revive this a month later, but it's taking it in a new direction, so that makes it... new?  I thought you all might like to know a little bit more about what is happening with the economy and such.

So basically, the world markets are still drastically overvalued and unstable.  No amount of stimulus is ever going to fix them, and they will crash, one way or another, very BIG, and very soon.  Like, within a year or two.  After that crash, then the economy starts coming back, and it can come back very quickly if we support it correctly.  And the sooner the crash happens, the easier it will be to recover.

If we crash withing the next 6-9 months, the economy could be back at full strength by 2011-2012.

We all can get carried away, but the economy isn't so fragile as you think:  It's been through the Great Depression and all sorts of other crap.  And back then, people had no idea what to do when the market crashed.  The US is not in any danger of collapsing at any point in the foreseeable future, although other countries will start gaining more power.  Capitalism will never collapse until social change demands it.

While you people get your information from your own beliefs and discussing with other amateurs on the internet, I actually got my facts from experts working in the field.  The top experts working in the field.  Now we can all speculate!

fugibo

Quote from: winkio on July 22, 2009, 03:08:43 pm
Sorry to revive this a month later, but it's taking it in a new direction, so that makes it... new?  I thought you all might like to know a little bit more about what is happening with the economy and such.

So basically, the world markets are still drastically overvalued and unstable.  No amount of stimulus is ever going to fix them, and they will crash, one way or another, very BIG, and very soon.  Like, within a year or two.  After that crash, then the economy starts coming back, and it can come back very quickly if we support it correctly.  And the sooner the crash happens, the easier it will be to recover.

If we crash withing the next 6-9 months, the economy could be back at full strength by 2011-2012.

We all can get carried away, but the economy isn't so fragile as you think:  It's been through the Great Depression and all sorts of other crap.  And back then, people had no idea what to do when the market crashed.  The US is not in any danger of collapsing at any point in the foreseeable future, although other countries will start gaining more power.  Capitalism will never collapse until social change demands it.

While you people get your information from your own beliefs and discussing with other amateurs on the internet, I actually got my facts from experts working in the field.  The top experts working in the field.  Now we can all speculate!


If you haven't noticed, Obama is the DEFINITION of "Social Change."

winkio

I assume you are talking about

QuoteCapitalism will never collapse until social change demands it.


Obama is social change, but he is just moving towards socialism, he's not really eliminating capitalism.

Blizzard

(No problem for reviving the topic as there's been new development in politics lately.)

I'll start by expanding my point from my last post.

I don't agree that capitalism will never collapse. I don't think it will happen soon, but one day it definitely will. And I am convinced that capitalism will collapse by itself, because the system's purpose is itself. The system is based on greed and therefore corruption can't be avoided. People are making money out of money itself, you can make money with no new value being produced. The current economic crisis happens because the world owes money. But to who does the entire world owe money? To itself. It's all about interest rates. Imagine that the entire world takes a loan from one bank and doesn't spend anything. The next day the entire world owes more money to the bank due to interest rates. But there is no more money than that in the world. Even if the money is returned, due to the interest rates, it's not all the money so there will be interest rates on the remaining debt. At this point the entire situation is already screwed up. The bank has all the money in the world, yet the world still owes the bank money. The only way to cover this debt is to take another loan. And at this point it's beyond screwed up.

It's similar with the consumption cycle. Consumers work at corporations to earn money and to produce goods. They then use money to buy those goods. The corporations want to make profit out of it and at least one person (i.e. owner) needs to get some money as well, even though he doesn't work at all, so something needs to be changed. That change is increasing the price and decreasing payments for labor. The difference is pure profit for the owner. But now people can't afford to buy all the goods they used to since they have less money and everything costs more. The life standard of the consumers decreases while the life standard of the corporation owner increases. The problem here (besides the fact that it's "unfair") is that this is a diverging system. At one point paying people less and less will result them in buying less and less goods to such a degree that demand goes down. Rather than decreasing prices (because of the greed of the corporation owner, he wouldn't satisfy with earning less, nooooooo, never), the production goes down. Because production goes down, people get paid less and people lose their jobs resulting them in buying even less goods. And here we go, a collapse cannot be avoided.
Sure, our economy is much more complex than this simply example. But that complexity doesn't come from other factors, it comes from the huge number of corporations. Capitalism is a system which purpose is to feed itself. At one point a breakdown is inevitable. The foundation is greed which leads to corruption and rather than saving many other people, corporations will rather exploit them as much as possible until the point of breakdown.

Now you might think "No way, the government won't allow such things to happen". Wrong. The value of a country is based on their economy. Governments have to support economy in order to have a more valuable country. Since economy are pretty much the values of the corporations, they support the corporations rather than supporting the people (because socialism is evil, oh noez). Instead of forcing corporations to decreases prices and increase payments, they cut down payments for government controlled sectors (e.g. service sector, lots a people work in the service sector), they cut down on common goods (education, healthcare, insurances). That results in people having less money, corporations earning less, the government having to cut down on even more stuff.
You think that's stupid? You think only a retarded idiot wouldn't see a thing like this? You think a government would never do such a stupid thing? Look at the world. It's happening in many countries right now (mine included). I seriously started to doubt the sanity of governments all over the world.

One last issue that people will ask is how the corporations could be allowed to increases prices just as they please. It's simple. They create fake rarity. The rarer something is, the more it costs. If they "fake" that production material is rare and costly, they have a justification to increase the selling prices of the product. Oil isn't rare. There's still plenty of it on Earth. The balance between demand and supply is the thing that controls the price. They create a fake rarity of something that isn't rare thus increasing prices, corporations earning even more by selling even less. Yet again there is a greater gap between classes that's being created.

Conclusion:
There is no crisis. How can the world owe money to itself? That's a paradox.
People earning less and spending less forces corporations to either decrease prices (which would decrease the life standard of the higher classes) or decrease payments and fire lower class citizen (which would not decrease the life standard of the higher classes but instead decrease the life standard of the lower classes). The former would result in sustaining a balance while the latter would cause people having less money and spending less even further which brings us to the beginning of the consumption cycle. Because the very foundation of capitalism is greed, the latter will happen which will ultimately lead to its collapse.
The entire monetary system is completely outdated (several thousands of years). Of course, collapse of capitalism will either spawn another system (there seems not to be a new system anywhere so far) or require a complete restructure which includes stop using the monetary system and changing to society (only likely to happen if enough people have been reduced to low enough class citizen to start a freaking revolution already).
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

winkio

July 23, 2009, 10:08:27 am #32 Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 11:41:29 am by winkio
According to your thinking, Blizzard, capitalism should have collapsed in the 1920s/30s, in the US at least, when large corporations owned way more of the national wealth than they do now, and greed was a much bigger factor.  The funny thing about capitalism, though, is that those companies who can't compete or are too greedy are eventually flushed out of the system.  Capitalism isn't perfect, but it is extraordinarily stable (petroleum doubled in price, and everybody was pretty much okay), especially with our current knowledge of economics.  And when it's done right (5 out of every 50 or so years...), it works pretty well.

The job of the government is to tax large corporations who higher prices or lower wages more than they should (by outsourcing, for example), and then feed that money back to the public through the bureaucracy.  It rarely does that job, but..

Another 'paradox' is that the world is always gaining more money; the GDP of each developing and developed country has, for the most part, risen each year.  Where is this money coming from?  Higher population and more efficient and advanced workforce.

While I agree with you that we will soon enough move on to a more advanced economic system, I think it's going to be that people demand it, not that capitalism collapses.

EDIT: about money, while it does have really horrible things associated with it, getting rid of money will not necessarily get rid of those horrible things.  It will get rid of greed of dollars.  It will not get rid of greed of power.  Right now, those two are synonymous, more or less.  Power would still be obtained even without money, in my opinion.  Also, stupid societal flaws like the children of great upper class individuals getting way more in life than their merit can account for, would still be there without money.  Success is success, money or no.  If you didn't allow people to rise above the middle class status, that may solve some of those problems.  It would be interesting to see how that plays out in society.

Blizzard

You should really watch Zeitgeist Addendum, then you'll understand what I mean. I can't really well explain 90 minutes of a presentation in just one post. There's even the part with the Great Depression explained and how it was just one big step towards the collapse and not the collapse itself. The banks pretty much "saved" the situation back then. Just watch it.
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winkio

I will later tonight then.  Which for me means in 4-8 hours.

Blizzard

July 23, 2009, 03:29:53 pm #35 Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 03:30:59 pm by Blizzard
There should be a free download online. Just google for it. Ignore the part about the utopian new society (I personally believe that it has many, many unmentioned flaws, mostly human factor), just concentrate on the first part that explains why the current system doesn't work as well as we liked it to.
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omegapirate2000

I agree with Blizzards view of the movie.
Spoiler: ShowHide

winkio

July 23, 2009, 10:34:07 pm #37 Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 10:56:32 pm by winkio
okay, I just watched part 1 of the movie, I think it's the part you are referring to, about money, debt, and inflation.  It sounded way too oversimplified, so I am researching it further right now.  I'll post my comments in a bit.

EDIT: Here is a statement: debt allows the population and the economy to expand.

Let me liken it to something we can grasp much more easily: Starcraft.  Each person/business is a Command center, right near a resource patch with minerals.  By going into a 50 mineral + interest debt to a different command ceneter, you can produce an scv, which will increase your mining rate thus increasing your wealth by more than 50 minerals.  You can now afford to pay it back and have extra.  It's not a perfect metaphor, but the idea is this:  money is created on both sides of a transaction during lending.  The real value, in a stable economy, should meet or exceed the fake debt value.

What I am saying is that money produces money.  If you buy a block of wood, then make a chair out of it, you have made something from nothing.  In a stable economy, the value of the chair meets or exceeds the value of the loan and the extra value associated with it in the banks.

Blizzard

July 24, 2009, 03:32:04 am #38 Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 03:34:59 am by Blizzard
Yes, but that isn't making money out of money. It's using money to create new value. A chair isn't money. The problem happens when you make money out of money (banks and interest rates). No new value is created. This should be covered in part 2. Due to some circumstances I didn't watch part 1 yet. I might do it tonight.

I agree that lending money can ultimately result in creating new value and expand the economy. But as soon as the process starts going the other way and you keep losing money to cover your debts, there's a problem. If you can't recover from that, bankrupting is inevitable.
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Fantasist

July 24, 2009, 07:19:23 am #39 Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 07:58:00 am by Blizzard
Quote(Zeitgeist anyone?)

Oh hell yes :D No wonder I see where you're coming from. I'm not too familiar or interested with the political orientation of the world, but the current monetary system is going to take us nowhere.

Offtopic: I've watched both the parts and I love the presentation among other things.
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winkio

July 24, 2009, 10:06:15 am #40 Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 01:45:42 pm by winkio
But if you can't create new money, then how do you purchase new value?  I guess I wasn't explaining my thing well enough:

New businesses and people constantly create new debt by going to college, buying materials, and expanding.  Old businesses have paid off most of their debt by creating new value.  Who pays for that new value?  Since there wasn't enough money to pay for it before, it's paid for by the new group taking out loans.

The movie was interesting, but it was fanatic rather than academic.  He presented one side of an argument, mixed in some inaccuracies, and went for sensationalism.  I severely distrust this guy like I distrust any fanatic, because they cannot fully understand what they talk about.  It's like explaining how an electric motor works but leaving out the part about magnetism.

EDIT:  okay, this is from my brother, who I asked about this, to see what he thinks.

QuoteThe general underlying claims in part I of the video are correct, but the overall message is misleading/underdeveloped.    

Some true facts:
1. Federal Reserve Controlling the money supply - The Fed's primary task is to control money supply and tilt credit conditions in pursuit of maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates.
2. 10% holding reserve for banks - this is true, although if someone takes out a 10B loan it is not guaranteed that that loan turns into 90B.  Instead of the loan being deposited in another savings account it could be used to pay down other loans, etc etc.  Recently that is what american's have been doing - deleveraging or paying down debt.  The national savings rate has gone from -2% to +5% - this is a huge swing historically and only happens in bad recessions.
3.  His argument on interest is flawed - interest is charged because there is some inherent risk of default in the loan made. (default being the person who took the loan cannot pay it back).  The bank charges a higher rate than the risk free rate it gets from the fed and pockets the difference for the risk it takes on by issueing the loan.  You will learn about this theory more in the CAPM (captial asset pricing model) which basically says the more risky an asset is the more interest you have to pay or the more excess return you receive for holding that asset.  I would ask the creator of the film this, if it is truely is a "rigged" system for all banks, why are so many banks currently going into bankrupcty?  The answer is that there is a risk in giving that loan and that risk from many large loans going into default can result in huge losses.


EDIT2: watched part 2.  Pretty much agree.  Large organizations are corrupt and manipulate the world.  What else is new?

Blizzard

I have yet to watch the first movie, but it's very probable that there are quite some flaws like in the second one.

My main argument is that the system cannot be prevented from collapsing at one point because it's not possible anymore to go back, a point of no return. I don't think it will happen as soon as those guys predict it, but eventually it will.

As for the increasing value and increasing amount of money, again, the problem arises when more and more money is produced, but there is no new value. This automatically results in inflation making everybody else poorer than before (except for the people who are earning enough money out of money to be having a profit).
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Magus

August 05, 2009, 04:11:04 pm #42 Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 04:14:59 pm by Nawm
---lol, this is referring to the Obama topic. it's old but XD-



Awe come on dude, there is no one in the world who can clean up Former President Bush's mess in less than six months. NO ONE.
It's impossible. Bush f*cked up the country so bad that I doubt any president can resolve it in such a short period.
I always heard this and it makes sense:

Patience. Give someone enought TIME to maybe come up with a way to clean the ogre's poo.

Serious, Bush fucked us. It's not Obama's fault that he's stuck to clean up his mess. The question is: Is there really a way to clean up behind Bush. He's the one who destroyed this country.

Moral to this point: There is no point to think that a single president can clean up after Bush in less than a year. It's going to take at least 2-4 years for the US to crawl out of the sh*thole Bush threw it in. It's unfair isn't it? I'm not going to but any blame or hate on Obama. There is no way, as I said, he could clean up behind Bush in a short period of time. Give the dude a break o_o
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legacyblade

^ technically Bush just didn't do much to clean up Clinton's messing with the tax code and foreign affairs laws. (my dad's a taxman, he rants about Clinton's tax changes all the time, lol). Obama just isn't helping either. The stimulus packs wont really do it. The word "inflation" mean anything to any of you who took at least elementary school economics? lol

Magus

oh, I see.
but lol, the No Child Left Behind Act failed.
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winkio

August 05, 2009, 07:22:17 pm #45 Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 07:30:47 pm by winkio
First of all, Clinton's taxes were godly.  They led to prospering businesses AND a balanced budget (national surplus, anyone?).  Your dad may have some personal bias on this issue, lb.

Second, Bush's stuff can be turned around.  It's nowhere near impossible.  But it's also not going to be instantaneous.  I agree with you there.  And inflation is better than deflation lb.  Inflation just means money loses value.  Deflation means that the price of life rises significantly faster than wages.  Deflation is much more deadly, and only happens during recessions/depressions.  Already, we have seen a swing from -5% to +8% savings on the American GDP.  This is, of course, a huge swing, and only happens in crises, but it means that we are getting back on track.

I wish my elementary school had economics.  Then I could be smart too!


I dislike internet arguments because there is no reliability, no expertise, and often times no balanced point of view.  That's fine in good fun and all, but when people start taking it seriously, and believing in it, it's a problem.  Unbiased research people.  Cold hard facts.  Look at all sides of the topic.  Don't fool yourselves.

That is all.

legacyblade

Clinton's taxes overcomplicated the system, caused us to pay more taxes, and he also took off many forign trade restrictions on countries like china. While he worked miracles on the Chinese economy, this caused the amount of low-skill labor jobs (factories and such) in america to drastically decrease. I'm sure a lot of people wish those jobs were over here now. While this allow for cheaper goods at the time, it contributed greatly to our current economic issues. I'm not trying to get in an angry debate, that's just my opinion based on what I've seen. And I didn't say Bush was a good president. He didn't exactly screw things up, he just sorta sat there. He didn't really make many significant changes or choices during his presidency. I'm hoping that Obama will do something to fix the economic problems that were started by Clinton and allowed to progress by Bush.

your elementary school didn't have economics? Well I was private schooled, I figured they would have taught economics in public elementary schools though.

winkio

You know what lb, I would love to test your understanding of these things.  But I don't have the time and patience to do it.  So I'll just let it go, unless other people need me.

legacyblade

I wasn't looking to convince anyone, just giving my opinion. I'm not much of a person for internet debate.

winkio

If you aren't much of a person for internet debate, then don't give opinions, misinformation, and an unbalanced view to someone looking for answers.  You know how lots of people think that the majority of Americans/the world are stupid?  THIS IS WHY.  And stop trying to worm your way out of it.  You took a stance, so stand behind it.  Don't be a pussy when someone calls you out.

Just a note to LB and everyone reading this:
Legacyblade, I respect you as a person, and I like you, more or less.  But this type of bullshit is not good for other people, and I'm not going to just let it go.

legacyblade

It was a whim. I was bored and posted in the debate. I didn't research to backup my position nor did I provide specific examples nor sources. That is an example of me just tossing something out there because I'm bored. If I'd taken a stance on a political issue, there would have been a well written essay. I'm an english major, that's what I do when I want to take a stance: write an essay. I was just bored, I believe those things though I do not have well formulated arguments at this time to defend them. Now if you'd like to convince me that my opinion is wrong, cite specific instances, give real statistics, make logical arguments (aka, write an an actual argument, not just "ur wrong, and this is why I think so") Your "stance" on the issue was no more convincing nor thought out than mine. Now your argument about bush was better done, but you still cited no sources, nor did you examine it from both angles and persuade anyone that you were correct. I was not taking a stance, and if those posts of yours were an attempt to do that...well I feel sorry for you if you plan on being an english major, politician, or a lawyer. I'm not taking a stance, I was just throwing out my opinion. I'm far to busy with overdue schoolwork to take a stance, so just accept what I posted as what it was: my opinion. It was not an argument or an attempt to convince others; it was simply my opinion. I have not formulated all the proper elements of my opinion to turn it into a "stance" as you call it. So don't say I'm a pussy just because I'm too busy to write you an essay.

(btw, this is not flame, but using words like "pussy" and "bull****" don't make you sound tough, convincing, or smart. They make you sound like an ignorant moron feebly attempting to express himself in a forceful manner.)

Blizzard

Quote from: winkio on August 05, 2009, 07:22:17 pm
I dislike internet arguments because there is no reliability, no expertise, and often times no balanced point of view.  That's fine in good fun and all, but when people start taking it seriously, and believing in it, it's a problem.  Unbiased research people.  Cold hard facts.  Look at all sides of the topic.  Don't fool yourselves.

That is all.


I totally agree. This is more of a discussion than a debate. But it's still "intelligent" (define intelligent, meh) so it'll stay where it is.

Quote from: legacyblade on August 05, 2009, 11:31:22 pm
It was a whim. I was bored and posted in the debate. I didn't research to backup my position nor did I provide specific examples nor sources. That is an example of me just tossing something out there because I'm bored. If I'd taken a stance on a political issue, there would have been a well written essay. I'm an english major, that's what I do when I want to take a stance: write an essay. I was just bored, I believe those things though I do not have well formulated arguments at this time to defend them. Now if you'd like to convince me that my opinion is wrong, cite specific instances, give real statistics, make logical arguments (aka, write an an actual argument, not just "ur wrong, and this is why I think so") Your "stance" on the issue was no more convincing nor thought out than mine. Now your argument about bush was better done, but you still cited no sources, nor did you examine it from both angles and persuade anyone that you were correct. I was not taking a stance, and if those posts of yours were an attempt to do that...well I feel sorry for you if you plan on being an english major, politician, or a lawyer. I'm not taking a stance, I was just throwing out my opinion. I'm far to busy with overdue schoolwork to take a stance, so just accept what I posted as what it was: my opinion. It was not an argument or an attempt to convince others; it was simply my opinion. I have not formulated all the proper elements of my opinion to turn it into a "stance" as you call it. So don't say I'm a pussy just because I'm too busy to write you an essay.

(btw, this is not flame, but using words like "pussy" and "bull****" don't make you sound tough, convincing, or smart. They make you sound like an ignorant moron feebly attempting to express himself in a forceful manner.)


winkio doesn't need to give you any facts as you provided none. This means that if neither of you is actually going to provide any, nobody should actually say anything more. Just throwing out there that you guys have no reason to even start a fight. °_°;

Quote from: winkio on August 05, 2009, 07:22:17 pm
I wish my elementary school had economics.  Then I could be smart too!


I had economics in college 2 years ago, yay.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

legacyblade

Quote from: Blizzard on August 06, 2009, 12:18:56 pm

winkio doesn't need to give you any facts as you provided none. This means that if neither of you is actually going to provide any, nobody should actually say anything more. Just throwing out there that you guys have no reason to even start a fight. °_°;



QuoteIf you aren't much of a person for internet debate, then don't give opinions, misinformation, and an unbalanced view to someone looking for answers.  You know how lots of people think that the majority of Americans/the world are stupid?  THIS IS WHY.  And stop trying to worm your way out of it.  You took a stance, so stand behind it.  Don't be a pussy when someone calls you out.


Yes but he was calling me out on not wanting to defending my view. I was explaining I don't give a crap about internet debating or I WOULD have given things to support my argument. Honestly, if we just shout our opinions back and forth and go "NUUU, UR WRONG!" "NUUU, UR WRONG" in a slightly more elegant manner, then it isn't debating it's just acting like morons (which is why I normally avoid posting in "intelligent" debate in the first place, lol). My above post was pretty much saying "I was bored. I posted and don't feel like posting more to defend the position. I'm NOT taking a stance, so deal with it."

fugibo

My High School has econ.

It's taught by an idiot who hardly grasps Supply & Demand.

=/

Blizzard

Quote from: legacyblade on August 06, 2009, 05:40:48 pm
Yes but he was calling me out on not wanting to defending my view. I was explaining I don't give a crap about internet debating or I WOULD have given things to support my argument. Honestly, if we just shout our opinions back and forth and go "NUUU, UR WRONG!" "NUUU, UR WRONG" in a slightly more elegant manner, then it isn't debating it's just acting like morons (which is why I normally avoid posting in "intelligent" debate in the first place, lol). My above post was pretty much saying "I was bored. I posted and don't feel like posting more to defend the position. I'm NOT taking a stance, so deal with it."


Actually posting is taking a stance (did winkio say that already?). But it doesn't matter. You're not taking this debate/discussion any further so there's no point in meta-debating about it either.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

fugibo

So, I'm still only seeing bad (read: anti-capitalist) from Mr. President. And I'm getting really, really sick of the U.S. government spending money as if it _didn't_ come from us - you know, like charging us for services that we paid for ourselves in the first place (talking more about local government here; for instance, people attending football games at my local HS have to pay for parking - despite the fact that both the parking space and the football field were bought through taxes).

winkio

Yeah, my trip to Hawaii kinda cut in before I could close this out but, in summary:

1)  Probably a bad idea to prove my point by challenging someone head on.  Legacy was probably the best choice I could have made though, but still, not my brightest moment.

2)  I said what I needed to say and got the response I needed.  I used high profile words and statements to get a response so people wouldn't keep brushing it off.  Mission accomplished-ish.


On topic: Yeah, agreed on lots of payment things being messed up.  Here is an update on eco crap:  The FED is printing money like crazy.  The possible outcomes of this are:
1) Inflation.  This is actually GOOD for us because it helps everyone, including the government, get out of debt.
2) Spending.  Not likely since people are saving now, but if everyone starts spending like crazy again, economy could actually come back.

Blizzard

Quote from: my grandauntWhen everybody is spending money, you should save it. When everybody is saving money, you should spend it.


That's all I can add to point 2.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Magus

haha, internet debates make me laugh, especially the ones that concern the presidents. I would recommend everyone to avoid them, unless they are 18, like myself, and registered to vote.
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Blizzard

In case you missed it, more than half of the people contributing to this topic actually are.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

fugibo

Quote from: Nawm on September 30, 2009, 03:25:49 pm
haha, internet debates make me laugh, especially the ones that concern the presidents. I would recommend everyone to avoid them, unless they are 18, like myself, and registered to vote.


Because anyone under 18 is obviously not entitled to an opinion or the right to intimidate you. That'd be outrageous, like something from an Orwell novel or some crap like that.

Magus

September 30, 2009, 04:39:17 pm #61 Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 04:49:37 pm by Nawm
Quote from: Longfellow on September 30, 2009, 04:32:34 pm
Quote from: Nawm on September 30, 2009, 03:25:49 pm
haha, internet debates make me laugh, especially the ones that concern the presidents. I would recommend everyone to avoid them, unless they are 18, like myself, and registered to vote.


Because anyone under 18 is obviously not entitled to an opinion or the right to intimidate you. That'd be outrageous, like something from an Orwell novel or some crap like that.

lol. I guess it's better if the ones that actually voted talk. The ones that don't won't shouldn't because, well, they didn't vote! SO vote if you want a saying. If you are not 18, be patient. One day, it will be your turn.
-  XD
---------------


Awe crap, someone took me back down to level 0.  Wonder who dislikes me D:
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winkio

Your generalization oozes uneducated slime.

Maturity is not the same as age.  Political involvement should be encouraged at all ages regardless.  Not going to turn this into a debate because it is too stupid to be in I D.

Blizzard

I second that.
If nobody has anything useful to add to this topic, don't post at all.
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fugibo

...
...
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*locks*

Message me if you have anything to add, pl0x.