Is he really helping?

Started by fugibo, June 19, 2009, 09:51:18 pm

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winkio

July 24, 2009, 10:06:15 am #40 Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 01:45:42 pm by winkio
But if you can't create new money, then how do you purchase new value?  I guess I wasn't explaining my thing well enough:

New businesses and people constantly create new debt by going to college, buying materials, and expanding.  Old businesses have paid off most of their debt by creating new value.  Who pays for that new value?  Since there wasn't enough money to pay for it before, it's paid for by the new group taking out loans.

The movie was interesting, but it was fanatic rather than academic.  He presented one side of an argument, mixed in some inaccuracies, and went for sensationalism.  I severely distrust this guy like I distrust any fanatic, because they cannot fully understand what they talk about.  It's like explaining how an electric motor works but leaving out the part about magnetism.

EDIT:  okay, this is from my brother, who I asked about this, to see what he thinks.

QuoteThe general underlying claims in part I of the video are correct, but the overall message is misleading/underdeveloped.    

Some true facts:
1. Federal Reserve Controlling the money supply - The Fed's primary task is to control money supply and tilt credit conditions in pursuit of maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates.
2. 10% holding reserve for banks - this is true, although if someone takes out a 10B loan it is not guaranteed that that loan turns into 90B.  Instead of the loan being deposited in another savings account it could be used to pay down other loans, etc etc.  Recently that is what american's have been doing - deleveraging or paying down debt.  The national savings rate has gone from -2% to +5% - this is a huge swing historically and only happens in bad recessions.
3.  His argument on interest is flawed - interest is charged because there is some inherent risk of default in the loan made. (default being the person who took the loan cannot pay it back).  The bank charges a higher rate than the risk free rate it gets from the fed and pockets the difference for the risk it takes on by issueing the loan.  You will learn about this theory more in the CAPM (captial asset pricing model) which basically says the more risky an asset is the more interest you have to pay or the more excess return you receive for holding that asset.  I would ask the creator of the film this, if it is truely is a "rigged" system for all banks, why are so many banks currently going into bankrupcty?  The answer is that there is a risk in giving that loan and that risk from many large loans going into default can result in huge losses.


EDIT2: watched part 2.  Pretty much agree.  Large organizations are corrupt and manipulate the world.  What else is new?

Blizzard

I have yet to watch the first movie, but it's very probable that there are quite some flaws like in the second one.

My main argument is that the system cannot be prevented from collapsing at one point because it's not possible anymore to go back, a point of no return. I don't think it will happen as soon as those guys predict it, but eventually it will.

As for the increasing value and increasing amount of money, again, the problem arises when more and more money is produced, but there is no new value. This automatically results in inflation making everybody else poorer than before (except for the people who are earning enough money out of money to be having a profit).
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Magus

August 05, 2009, 04:11:04 pm #42 Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 04:14:59 pm by Nawm
---lol, this is referring to the Obama topic. it's old but XD-



Awe come on dude, there is no one in the world who can clean up Former President Bush's mess in less than six months. NO ONE.
It's impossible. Bush f*cked up the country so bad that I doubt any president can resolve it in such a short period.
I always heard this and it makes sense:

Patience. Give someone enought TIME to maybe come up with a way to clean the ogre's poo.

Serious, Bush fucked us. It's not Obama's fault that he's stuck to clean up his mess. The question is: Is there really a way to clean up behind Bush. He's the one who destroyed this country.

Moral to this point: There is no point to think that a single president can clean up after Bush in less than a year. It's going to take at least 2-4 years for the US to crawl out of the sh*thole Bush threw it in. It's unfair isn't it? I'm not going to but any blame or hate on Obama. There is no way, as I said, he could clean up behind Bush in a short period of time. Give the dude a break o_o
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legacyblade

^ technically Bush just didn't do much to clean up Clinton's messing with the tax code and foreign affairs laws. (my dad's a taxman, he rants about Clinton's tax changes all the time, lol). Obama just isn't helping either. The stimulus packs wont really do it. The word "inflation" mean anything to any of you who took at least elementary school economics? lol

Magus

oh, I see.
but lol, the No Child Left Behind Act failed.
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winkio

August 05, 2009, 07:22:17 pm #45 Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 07:30:47 pm by winkio
First of all, Clinton's taxes were godly.  They led to prospering businesses AND a balanced budget (national surplus, anyone?).  Your dad may have some personal bias on this issue, lb.

Second, Bush's stuff can be turned around.  It's nowhere near impossible.  But it's also not going to be instantaneous.  I agree with you there.  And inflation is better than deflation lb.  Inflation just means money loses value.  Deflation means that the price of life rises significantly faster than wages.  Deflation is much more deadly, and only happens during recessions/depressions.  Already, we have seen a swing from -5% to +8% savings on the American GDP.  This is, of course, a huge swing, and only happens in crises, but it means that we are getting back on track.

I wish my elementary school had economics.  Then I could be smart too!


I dislike internet arguments because there is no reliability, no expertise, and often times no balanced point of view.  That's fine in good fun and all, but when people start taking it seriously, and believing in it, it's a problem.  Unbiased research people.  Cold hard facts.  Look at all sides of the topic.  Don't fool yourselves.

That is all.

legacyblade

Clinton's taxes overcomplicated the system, caused us to pay more taxes, and he also took off many forign trade restrictions on countries like china. While he worked miracles on the Chinese economy, this caused the amount of low-skill labor jobs (factories and such) in america to drastically decrease. I'm sure a lot of people wish those jobs were over here now. While this allow for cheaper goods at the time, it contributed greatly to our current economic issues. I'm not trying to get in an angry debate, that's just my opinion based on what I've seen. And I didn't say Bush was a good president. He didn't exactly screw things up, he just sorta sat there. He didn't really make many significant changes or choices during his presidency. I'm hoping that Obama will do something to fix the economic problems that were started by Clinton and allowed to progress by Bush.

your elementary school didn't have economics? Well I was private schooled, I figured they would have taught economics in public elementary schools though.

winkio

You know what lb, I would love to test your understanding of these things.  But I don't have the time and patience to do it.  So I'll just let it go, unless other people need me.

legacyblade

I wasn't looking to convince anyone, just giving my opinion. I'm not much of a person for internet debate.

winkio

If you aren't much of a person for internet debate, then don't give opinions, misinformation, and an unbalanced view to someone looking for answers.  You know how lots of people think that the majority of Americans/the world are stupid?  THIS IS WHY.  And stop trying to worm your way out of it.  You took a stance, so stand behind it.  Don't be a pussy when someone calls you out.

Just a note to LB and everyone reading this:
Legacyblade, I respect you as a person, and I like you, more or less.  But this type of bullshit is not good for other people, and I'm not going to just let it go.

legacyblade

It was a whim. I was bored and posted in the debate. I didn't research to backup my position nor did I provide specific examples nor sources. That is an example of me just tossing something out there because I'm bored. If I'd taken a stance on a political issue, there would have been a well written essay. I'm an english major, that's what I do when I want to take a stance: write an essay. I was just bored, I believe those things though I do not have well formulated arguments at this time to defend them. Now if you'd like to convince me that my opinion is wrong, cite specific instances, give real statistics, make logical arguments (aka, write an an actual argument, not just "ur wrong, and this is why I think so") Your "stance" on the issue was no more convincing nor thought out than mine. Now your argument about bush was better done, but you still cited no sources, nor did you examine it from both angles and persuade anyone that you were correct. I was not taking a stance, and if those posts of yours were an attempt to do that...well I feel sorry for you if you plan on being an english major, politician, or a lawyer. I'm not taking a stance, I was just throwing out my opinion. I'm far to busy with overdue schoolwork to take a stance, so just accept what I posted as what it was: my opinion. It was not an argument or an attempt to convince others; it was simply my opinion. I have not formulated all the proper elements of my opinion to turn it into a "stance" as you call it. So don't say I'm a pussy just because I'm too busy to write you an essay.

(btw, this is not flame, but using words like "pussy" and "bull****" don't make you sound tough, convincing, or smart. They make you sound like an ignorant moron feebly attempting to express himself in a forceful manner.)

Blizzard

Quote from: winkio on August 05, 2009, 07:22:17 pm
I dislike internet arguments because there is no reliability, no expertise, and often times no balanced point of view.  That's fine in good fun and all, but when people start taking it seriously, and believing in it, it's a problem.  Unbiased research people.  Cold hard facts.  Look at all sides of the topic.  Don't fool yourselves.

That is all.


I totally agree. This is more of a discussion than a debate. But it's still "intelligent" (define intelligent, meh) so it'll stay where it is.

Quote from: legacyblade on August 05, 2009, 11:31:22 pm
It was a whim. I was bored and posted in the debate. I didn't research to backup my position nor did I provide specific examples nor sources. That is an example of me just tossing something out there because I'm bored. If I'd taken a stance on a political issue, there would have been a well written essay. I'm an english major, that's what I do when I want to take a stance: write an essay. I was just bored, I believe those things though I do not have well formulated arguments at this time to defend them. Now if you'd like to convince me that my opinion is wrong, cite specific instances, give real statistics, make logical arguments (aka, write an an actual argument, not just "ur wrong, and this is why I think so") Your "stance" on the issue was no more convincing nor thought out than mine. Now your argument about bush was better done, but you still cited no sources, nor did you examine it from both angles and persuade anyone that you were correct. I was not taking a stance, and if those posts of yours were an attempt to do that...well I feel sorry for you if you plan on being an english major, politician, or a lawyer. I'm not taking a stance, I was just throwing out my opinion. I'm far to busy with overdue schoolwork to take a stance, so just accept what I posted as what it was: my opinion. It was not an argument or an attempt to convince others; it was simply my opinion. I have not formulated all the proper elements of my opinion to turn it into a "stance" as you call it. So don't say I'm a pussy just because I'm too busy to write you an essay.

(btw, this is not flame, but using words like "pussy" and "bull****" don't make you sound tough, convincing, or smart. They make you sound like an ignorant moron feebly attempting to express himself in a forceful manner.)


winkio doesn't need to give you any facts as you provided none. This means that if neither of you is actually going to provide any, nobody should actually say anything more. Just throwing out there that you guys have no reason to even start a fight. °_°;

Quote from: winkio on August 05, 2009, 07:22:17 pm
I wish my elementary school had economics.  Then I could be smart too!


I had economics in college 2 years ago, yay.
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legacyblade

Quote from: Blizzard on August 06, 2009, 12:18:56 pm

winkio doesn't need to give you any facts as you provided none. This means that if neither of you is actually going to provide any, nobody should actually say anything more. Just throwing out there that you guys have no reason to even start a fight. °_°;



QuoteIf you aren't much of a person for internet debate, then don't give opinions, misinformation, and an unbalanced view to someone looking for answers.  You know how lots of people think that the majority of Americans/the world are stupid?  THIS IS WHY.  And stop trying to worm your way out of it.  You took a stance, so stand behind it.  Don't be a pussy when someone calls you out.


Yes but he was calling me out on not wanting to defending my view. I was explaining I don't give a crap about internet debating or I WOULD have given things to support my argument. Honestly, if we just shout our opinions back and forth and go "NUUU, UR WRONG!" "NUUU, UR WRONG" in a slightly more elegant manner, then it isn't debating it's just acting like morons (which is why I normally avoid posting in "intelligent" debate in the first place, lol). My above post was pretty much saying "I was bored. I posted and don't feel like posting more to defend the position. I'm NOT taking a stance, so deal with it."

fugibo

My High School has econ.

It's taught by an idiot who hardly grasps Supply & Demand.

=/

Blizzard

Quote from: legacyblade on August 06, 2009, 05:40:48 pm
Yes but he was calling me out on not wanting to defending my view. I was explaining I don't give a crap about internet debating or I WOULD have given things to support my argument. Honestly, if we just shout our opinions back and forth and go "NUUU, UR WRONG!" "NUUU, UR WRONG" in a slightly more elegant manner, then it isn't debating it's just acting like morons (which is why I normally avoid posting in "intelligent" debate in the first place, lol). My above post was pretty much saying "I was bored. I posted and don't feel like posting more to defend the position. I'm NOT taking a stance, so deal with it."


Actually posting is taking a stance (did winkio say that already?). But it doesn't matter. You're not taking this debate/discussion any further so there's no point in meta-debating about it either.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

fugibo

So, I'm still only seeing bad (read: anti-capitalist) from Mr. President. And I'm getting really, really sick of the U.S. government spending money as if it _didn't_ come from us - you know, like charging us for services that we paid for ourselves in the first place (talking more about local government here; for instance, people attending football games at my local HS have to pay for parking - despite the fact that both the parking space and the football field were bought through taxes).

winkio

Yeah, my trip to Hawaii kinda cut in before I could close this out but, in summary:

1)  Probably a bad idea to prove my point by challenging someone head on.  Legacy was probably the best choice I could have made though, but still, not my brightest moment.

2)  I said what I needed to say and got the response I needed.  I used high profile words and statements to get a response so people wouldn't keep brushing it off.  Mission accomplished-ish.


On topic: Yeah, agreed on lots of payment things being messed up.  Here is an update on eco crap:  The FED is printing money like crazy.  The possible outcomes of this are:
1) Inflation.  This is actually GOOD for us because it helps everyone, including the government, get out of debt.
2) Spending.  Not likely since people are saving now, but if everyone starts spending like crazy again, economy could actually come back.

Blizzard

Quote from: my grandauntWhen everybody is spending money, you should save it. When everybody is saving money, you should spend it.


That's all I can add to point 2.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Magus

haha, internet debates make me laugh, especially the ones that concern the presidents. I would recommend everyone to avoid them, unless they are 18, like myself, and registered to vote.
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Blizzard

In case you missed it, more than half of the people contributing to this topic actually are.
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Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.