Difficult choice

Started by Blizzard, June 21, 2009, 08:19:21 am

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Blizzard

I have built a world-destruction device. And I don't care about my own life. Should I activate it? If so, why? If no, why?
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

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impulszero

Quote from: Blizzard on June 21, 2009, 08:19:21 am
I have built a world-destruction device. And I don't care about my own life. Should I activate it? If so, why? If no, why?

no. what will u gain from that?
<br /><br />Order is for idiots, Genius can handle Chaos.

Blizzard

Nothing. But I won't gain anything by not doing it either since my own life doesn't matter. I am technically giving a situation here where the outcome of each decision is absolute. I have no motivation to choose either of them, but I have to choose one (from the context of the situation: yes or no). How do I decide which I will take?
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Vell

Simple: ask yourself the question: you don't care about yourself, but do you care about others?

impulszero

Quote from: UltaFlame on June 21, 2009, 11:28:27 am
Simple: ask yourself the question: you don't care about yourself, but do you care about others?

errr... if u dont value ure own like, how can value any other ???
<br /><br />Order is for idiots, Genius can handle Chaos.

King Munkey

Quote from: impulszero on June 21, 2009, 12:40:40 pm
Quote from: UltaFlame on June 21, 2009, 11:28:27 am
Simple: ask yourself the question: you don't care about yourself, but do you care about others?

errr... if u dont value ure own like, how can value any other ???


Actually I don't think that is really that difficult. You can value someone else's life and not your own. Least I think so.

G_G Is my hero!
Munkey != monkey
Munkey > monkey

Blizzard

Lol, I knew somebody was gonna ask this. Ok, instead of discussing whether caring about others requires caring about one self, let's extend it: No caring. My mind is filled with apathy and I have decision to make. What do you think now?
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Vell

so you don't give a flying fuck about them?

fine. do you honestly feel you care enough to lifty your arm to push a button? or if it requires more than that, do you care to go through the work to activate the machine? and if it requires a mere thought, then that is honestly going too far and you're just looking for a way to say 'lul, you can't come up with nothin, lul. lul.'

Blizzard

June 21, 2009, 01:22:26 pm #8 Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 01:23:41 pm by Blizzard
Please, if you wanna rant about me, do it in the other thread. I am trying to discuss something here. Just because nothing came to your mind right now doesn't justify your judging of this thread's purpose (especially since you don't know the purpose yet).

The idea behind this is that I was wondering if caring is a motivation and if there could be motivation if there is no care. Of course it's not as simple as that. I'm trying to spark a thought and a philosophical discussion here. But first I need to lead the readers to the same first conclusion that I made because it's necessary to start the discussion properly.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

impulszero

Quote from: Blizzard on June 21, 2009, 01:14:16 pm
Lol, I knew somebody was gonna ask this. Ok, instead of discussing whether caring about others requires caring about one self, let's extend it: No caring. My mind is filled with apathy and I have decision to make. What do you think now?

errr...

no.
why?
no gain.
-my way of thinking :P

(just i dont think it can be so simple to just yes and no)
<br /><br />Order is for idiots, Genius can handle Chaos.

Blizzard

It is. Either I press the button or I don't. It comes to that and that is the point. There is no choice inbetween.

Also, care to share your thoughts why it might not be just yes or no?
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Vell

no, no, you misread my post.

the main issue there was, if you don't care, then would you find it pointless to push the button, or not? my concern, was that you'd just continually make the situation more 'careless' as possible solutions came along.

Blizzard

No. If you don't push the button, you have made a choice not to push it. Let's ignore the fact that you can pretty much at any moment decide to push the button if you haven't pushed it yet, because it destroys the concept. At one moment in time you have to decide whether to push it or not. And that's it. After that there is no change of decision anymore.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Vell

I'm not getting this. I really feel like it's just a situation wher eyou're going to repeatedly ask the same question. I'm done.

Blizzard

Because nobody is answering the question. When it was answered once, I have asked another question with more information. But suit yourself.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Diokatsu

Well, depends. I think you shouldn't because it's quite obvious that the world will end which you'll innately care about to some degree. But, it could be a good card to use to get the governments of the world to do what you want so I'd recommend blackmail.

Blizzard

Finally somebody seems to get the idea. Ok, this is it: Caring is motivation. As soon as you care, you are motivated. Now, is caring the absolute motivation or is there something else? Does another form of motivation exist that is not based on caring?
Of course with caring I am not talking about caring in the traditional sense, I am talking about caring as in motivation which is the whole point here.
So, is there another form of motivation?
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

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Arkaea Halfdemon

You can destroy the world with a keystroke, or you can walk away. You don't care about yourself, or anyone and anything else for that matter. Your feelings for everything are completely neutral. However, you are a rational being, and as such you can use logic to come to the "right" decision.

So, the factor becomes the individual's beliefs. Because they are opinions (educated or not has no relevance), there can be no right or wrong answer.


If the person had my beliefs, then he would walk away from the button. I walk away because I have to realize the human universe doesn't revolve around me. I may have the power to destroy it, but that doesn't make me greater than it. And because I'm apathetic, I'm outside of the system. As such, it's not my place to disturb it. My option is suicide, or seclusion.

But that's just me.

Blizzard

But having beliefs is automatically caring and gives you automatically a motivation. Same with logic. If you introduce logic, you already care to analyze the situation or proceed using an analysis result. Care is not an emotion. I think that caring is the absolute motivation.
Also, each extrinsic motivation HAS to trigger an intrinsic motivation so something happens. Example: When somebody puts a gun on your head, you care if you react.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Arkaea Halfdemon

June 22, 2009, 09:40:02 pm #19 Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 09:45:04 pm by Arkaea Halfdemon
The topic is a lil' pointless if the being making the decision isn't sentient.

The answer: No. The thing doesn't care enough to do anything. There's no motivation to press the button. So the thing sits there, not doing anything. If you can't care, it's not possible to make a decision, or do anything. So, I imagine this being would just dehydrate to death.

But realistically, those kind of limits don't exist.

Caring is, basically, universal motivation. But that doesn't mean a lot, due to the fact that there are different types of caring. E.g. caring about your survival; somebody else, etc. It's kinda obvious, now that I think about it.

Blizzard

Yeah, that was my point. Many things are obvious when you notice them. xD

And yeah, not caring should ultimately result in not pressing the button because that already requires a certain degree of motivation. :S
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

winkio

Man, I missed out on some good debates while I was gone...

Here's something to think about: you don't care about anybody else, yet you know that everyone else, for the most part, doesn't want you to press the button.  You don't care about it, but you know it.  Can you make a decision that overrides the decision of billions of others of your kind?  Do you think that you are billions of times better than everyone else?  Better enough to decide for them?

Blizzard

Hm... Interesting. Just knowing doesn't imply caring. :S
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Fantasist

First of, how did I miss this? ;_;

QuoteHere's something to think about: you don't care about anybody else, yet you know that everyone else, for the most part, doesn't want you to press the button.  You don't care about it, but you know it.  Can you make a decision that overrides the decision of billions of others of your kind?  Do you think that you are billions of times better than everyone else?  Better enough to decide for them?

Well, as Blizz pointed out, If I don't care about what you said, it wouldn't make the slightest difference to me.

QuoteAnd yeah, not caring should ultimately result in not pressing the button because that already requires a certain degree of motivation. :S

Let's say hitting the button is an action. Now, when talking about actions, or more specifically choices, if one of them requires energy (or resources, like moving your hand to actually push the button), you will obviously not push the button if you don't care. The question is, if both the choices require the same amount of energy or no amount of energy, what would you do?

There's something else I have to be clear about. When you say "care", at what level do you mean? I mean, breathing doesn't mean you particularly care for it. Of course, you care if you breathe or not, but not in everyday life. You just breathe, you don't even give a second's thought about it. What I'm saying is, are we assuming actions need what you call "motivation"? Couldn't there be actions without any motivation whatsoever? I hope you know what I mean, my question the words motivation and care... are we talking about conscious or subconscious levels here? And if subconscious, are we talking about the most trivial stimuli (more mechanical, like brain telling the heart to beat) or are we talking about certain high level stimuli (you suffered childhood cause you're poor so you subconsciously act good to poor people without you knowing it)?
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Blizzard

Quote from: Fantasist on July 24, 2009, 07:57:58 am
QuoteAnd yeah, not caring should ultimately result in not pressing the button because that already requires a certain degree of motivation. :S

Let's say hitting the button is an action. Now, when talking about actions, or more specifically choices, if one of them requires energy (or resources, like moving your hand to actually push the button), you will obviously not push the button if you don't care. The question is, if both the choices require the same amount of energy or no amount of energy, what would you do?


But deciding upon the amount of energy is caring to save energy.

Quote from: Fantasist on July 24, 2009, 07:57:58 am
There's something else I have to be clear about. When you say "care", at what level do you mean? I mean, breathing doesn't mean you particularly care for it. Of course, you care if you breathe or not, but not in everyday life. You just breathe, you don't even give a second's thought about it. What I'm saying is, are we assuming actions need what you call "motivation"? Couldn't there be actions without any motivation whatsoever? I hope you know what I mean, my question the words motivation and care... are we talking about conscious or subconscious levels here? And if subconscious, are we talking about the most trivial stimuli (more mechanical, like brain telling the heart to beat) or are we talking about certain high level stimuli (you suffered childhood cause you're poor so you subconsciously act good to poor people without you knowing it)?


Doesn't matter. The decision takes a millisecond and if I don't breathe for that moment while I decide and press (or not press) the button, it's not gonna kill me.
I agree that breathing doesn't require your mind itself to care or pay attention because another part of your body normally controls that. But making a conscious decision doesn't work that way. You cannot make a decision without any kind of motivation that draws you towards one of the possible choices. Caring is motivation hence without care, you simply cannot make the decision, you are stuck.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Fantasist

So we're talking about conscious decisions here. Then as of today, my answer to your question is that there can be no motivation without care.
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RoseSkye

I say push it. . sure the world will not exist any more.. but we wont be here to protest, eh?

nathmatt

i say if you are even asking yourself the question then you have already chosen not to press it other wise
you would just press it
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Blizzard

Good points, both of you.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Subsonic_Noise

I don't think that this discussion really leads somewhere. If you don't care about your own life AND about the lifes of the others, you won't have any reasons to do anything with this device. You would probably not even think about if you should press it or not.
I personally would say one wouldn't do anything, which results in not pressing the button. But what would you do if you have a device which destroys the world when you stop pushing the button?
(You have already pushed it and hold it down)
I'm just trying to give this discussion a new direction to make it more interesting.^^

winkio

Missing the point of these discussions.  It's not about the answer to the question.  It's about how we answer the question.  Psychology.

The new direction changes very little.  You have to put constant work into pushing the button down.  It still remains that you don't care about anything, thus you don't care about how much work you have to do to keep the button down.  You'll just keep it down: why let go?

Blizzard

Good point there. Motivation is psychology after all.
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Fallen Angel X

October 07, 2009, 01:37:38 pm #32 Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 01:40:15 pm by Fallen Angel X
If I didn't really care, I'd just leave my decision to luck. Toss a coin, if it's heads, push it. If it's tails, don't. There's no real motivation behind that choice. It's just saying, "I don't give a damn, so let something else decide'. And there really isn't much in the notion for caring, either. Atleast, that's what I think. Basically, you're forcing me to make a choice. I don't care enough to make it. So, I resort to having something else make it for me, luck.

Blizzard

But tossing a coin is already caring that you have to come to a decision.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Fallen Angel X

Well, not necessarily. It's not that I care to make the decision, but rather, that I'm being forced to make a decision. You're putting the person in a position where they have to address the circumstances, whether they like it or not. If they weren't in that position, they wouldn't care enough to be bothered with it. They'd simply ignore it.

Blizzard

You don't have to toss the coin. If you toss it, you force yourself. The action (the coin tossing) that forces an action upon yourself has to be initiated which requires motivation. And since we came to the conclusion that motivation is caring, it means that tossing the coin is not a solution.

But I understand what you mean. Tossing the coin was supposed to be external and unrelated to the button pushing. Since you don't have anymore control over it after you toss the coin, you're not influencing the decision directly that you make about the button. But you do have to make it indirectly. Cause and consequence.
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Fallen Angel X

Quote from: Blizzard on October 09, 2009, 03:33:53 am
And since we came to the conclusion that motivation is caring, it means that tossing the coin is not a solution.


But that's assuming your conclusion is the correct conclusion. As this is a debate, it's easily argueable that motivation is not caring.

The person doesn't care about anything. He's introduced to a machine that can destroy the world with a push of a button. They don't really care about it, so they'd normally ignore it. However, that can't be the case. Now, they're being forced to make a decision. They don't care to make the decision, so they leave it to an external factor. They toss a coin. It's not that they care to make the decision, per se. Rather, it's that they're in a position where they HAVE to make a decision. And yes, you're right, you don't have to toss the coin. But, the fact is, you have to make a decision. The motivation behind the coin tossing isn't caring, rather, it's an external factor that's saying they absolutely have to make a decision. Hence, I could probably argue that caring isn't motivation but a major factor in motivation, but there are also other factors that come into play behind motivation.

Blizzard

October 09, 2009, 12:42:45 pm #37 Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 12:45:53 pm by Blizzard
If we see this situation as a realistic one, we will never come to a solution, because in a realistic situation there are factors that you don't know of. This is a limited and hypothetical situation. I explained the limitations. We are at one moment in time (one frame of time if you will) and in this one moment a decision needs to be made. There is no continuous progress of time. I thought that was clear from the description of the situation. The only thing that is not bound to this rule is the reasoning assuming it was done before the moment where the decision has to be done or assuming it can be done instantly at this moment in time followed by the actual decision.
My point is that any reasoning to decide is already a paradoxal outcome because not caring doesn't permit reasoning beforehand. Reasoning includes a motivation and it's impossible to come to a decision unless there is some reasoning behind it regardless if it's just one or a million facts. I would say that this situation cannot be solved because we do not have the prerequisites to solve it. The question is: Am I right or am I wrong? If I am wrong, then how can we have reasoning which is not a product of caring or motivation? Or let's specialize the question assuming your idea that caring is just a part of motivation: How can we have reasoning which is not a product of caring?
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Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

fugibo

The real question with all of this is:

...how many casts of Auto-Life do you have ready?

Fallen Angel X

Quote from: Blizzard on June 21, 2009, 08:19:21 am
I have built a world-destruction device. And I don't care about my own life. Should I activate it? If so, why? If no, why?


Quote from: Blizzard on October 09, 2009, 12:42:45 pm
If we see this situation as a realistic one, we will never come to a solution, because in a realistic situation there are factors that you don't know of. This is a limited and hypothetical situation. I explained the limitations. We are at one moment in time (one frame of time if you will) and in this one moment a decision needs to be made. There is no continuous progress of time. I thought that was clear from the description of the situation.


That's not a really clear description of the situation.

Quote from: Definition of caring, as found in dictionary.com-noun 1. a state of mind in which one is troubled; worry, anxiety, or concern: He was never free from care.  
2. a cause or object of worry, anxiety, concern, etc.: Their son has always been a great care to them.  
3. serious attention; solicitude; heed; caution: She devotes great care to her work.  
4. protection; charge: He is under the care of a doctor.  
5. temporary keeping, as for the benefit of or until claimed by the owner: He left his valuables in the care of friends. Address my mail in care of the American Embassy.  
6. grief; suffering; sorrow.

-verb (used without object) 7. to be concerned or solicitous; have thought or regard.
8. to be concerned or have a special preference (usually used in negative constructions): I don't care if I do.  
9. to make provision or look out (usually fol. by for): Will you care for the children while I am away?  
10. to have an inclination, liking, fondness, or affection (usually fol. by for): Would you care for dessert? I don't care for him very much.  

-verb (used with object) 11. to feel concern about: He doesn't care what others say.  
12. to wish; desire; like: Would you care to dance?  

--Idioms13. couldn't care less, could not care less; be completely unconcerned: I couldn't care less whether she goes to the party or not. Also, could care less.
14. take care, a. be alert; be careful: Take care that you don't fall on the ice!  
b. take care of yourself; goodbye: used as an expression of parting.

15. take care of, a. to watch over; be responsible for: to take care of an invalid.  
b. to act on; deal with; attend to: to take care of paying a bill.  



Quote from: Definition of motivation, as found in dictionary.com-noun 1. the act or an instance of motivating.
2. the state or condition of being motivated.
3. something that motivates; inducement; incentive.


To be motivated, there needs to be an incentive. Because you care for something, it can act as an incentive. However, an incentive isn't limited to that. I could have the reasoning, "Hey, pushing this button might be fun". The incentive behind that is that it might be fun. It's not that I care about the fun itself, it's more of that I just feel like doing it.  :o

winkio

Damn this topic sucks.  It's degenerated into nitpicking and whining.

I think the main setup was this:

QuoteI have built a world-destruction device. And I don't care about my own life, or the life of anyone else. Should I activate it? If so, why? If no, why?


which should provide insight on the fundamental question:
Quote
Is caring a motivation?  Could there be motivation if there was no care?



Blizzard

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