Difficult choice

[Blizzard]

Yeah, that was my point. Many things are obvious when you notice them. xD

And yeah, not caring should ultimately result in not pressing the button because that already requires a certain degree of motivation. :S

[winkio]

Man, I missed out on some good debates while I was gone...

Here's something to think about: you don't care about anybody else, yet you know that everyone else, for the most part, doesn't want you to press the button.  You don't care about it, but you know it.  Can you make a decision that overrides the decision of billions of others of your kind?  Do you think that you are billions of times better than everyone else?  Better enough to decide for them?

[Blizzard]

Hm... Interesting. Just knowing doesn't imply caring. :S

[Fantasist]

First of, how did I miss this? ;_;

Here's something to think about: you don't care about anybody else, yet you know that everyone else, for the most part, doesn't want you to press the button.  You don't care about it, but you know it.  Can you make a decision that overrides the decision of billions of others of your kind?  Do you think that you are billions of times better than everyone else?  Better enough to decide for them?

Well, as Blizz pointed out, If I don't care about what you said, it wouldn't make the slightest difference to me.

And yeah, not caring should ultimately result in not pressing the button because that already requires a certain degree of motivation. :S

Let's say hitting the button is an action. Now, when talking about actions, or more specifically choices, if one of them requires energy (or resources, like moving your hand to actually push the button), you will obviously not push the button if you don't care. The question is, if both the choices require the same amount of energy or no amount of energy, what would you do?

There's something else I have to be clear about. When you say "care", at what level do you mean? I mean, breathing doesn't mean you particularly care for it. Of course, you care if you breathe or not, but not in everyday life. You just breathe, you don't even give a second's thought about it. What I'm saying is, are we assuming actions need what you call "motivation"? Couldn't there be actions without any motivation whatsoever? I hope you know what I mean, my question the words motivation and care... are we talking about conscious or subconscious levels here? And if subconscious, are we talking about the most trivial stimuli (more mechanical, like brain telling the heart to beat) or are we talking about certain high level stimuli (you suffered childhood cause you're poor so you subconsciously act good to poor people without you knowing it)?

[Blizzard]

And yeah, not caring should ultimately result in not pressing the button because that already requires a certain degree of motivation. :S

Let's say hitting the button is an action. Now, when talking about actions, or more specifically choices, if one of them requires energy (or resources, like moving your hand to actually push the button), you will obviously not push the button if you don't care. The question is, if both the choices require the same amount of energy or no amount of energy, what would you do?

But deciding upon the amount of energy is caring to save energy.

There's something else I have to be clear about. When you say "care", at what level do you mean? I mean, breathing doesn't mean you particularly care for it. Of course, you care if you breathe or not, but not in everyday life. You just breathe, you don't even give a second's thought about it. What I'm saying is, are we assuming actions need what you call "motivation"? Couldn't there be actions without any motivation whatsoever? I hope you know what I mean, my question the words motivation and care... are we talking about conscious or subconscious levels here? And if subconscious, are we talking about the most trivial stimuli (more mechanical, like brain telling the heart to beat) or are we talking about certain high level stimuli (you suffered childhood cause you're poor so you subconsciously act good to poor people without you knowing it)?

Doesn't matter. The decision takes a millisecond and if I don't breathe for that moment while I decide and press (or not press) the button, it's not gonna kill me.
I agree that breathing doesn't require your mind itself to care or pay attention because another part of your body normally controls that. But making a conscious decision doesn't work that way. You cannot make a decision without any kind of motivation that draws you towards one of the possible choices. Caring is motivation hence without care, you simply cannot make the decision, you are stuck.

[Fantasist]

So we're talking about conscious decisions here. Then as of today, my answer to your question is that there can be no motivation without care.

[RoseSkye]

I say push it. . sure the world will not exist any more.. but we wont be here to protest, eh?

[nathmatt]

i say if you are even asking yourself the question then you have already chosen not to press it other wise
you would just press it

[Blizzard]

Good points, both of you.

[Subsonic_Noise]

I don't think that this discussion really leads somewhere. If you don't care about your own life AND about the lifes of the others, you won't have any reasons to do anything with this device. You would probably not even think about if you should press it or not.
I personally would say one wouldn't do anything, which results in not pressing the button. But what would you do if you have a device which destroys the world when you stop pushing the button?
(You have already pushed it and hold it down)
I'm just trying to give this discussion a new direction to make it more interesting.^^

[winkio]

Missing the point of these discussions.  It's not about the answer to the question.  It's about how we answer the question.  Psychology.

The new direction changes very little.  You have to put constant work into pushing the button down.  It still remains that you don't care about anything, thus you don't care about how much work you have to do to keep the button down.  You'll just keep it down: why let go?

[Blizzard]

Good point there. Motivation is psychology after all.

[Fallen Angel X]

If I didn't really care, I'd just leave my decision to luck. Toss a coin, if it's heads, push it. If it's tails, don't. There's no real motivation behind that choice. It's just saying, "I don't give a damn, so let something else decide'. And there really isn't much in the notion for caring, either. Atleast, that's what I think. Basically, you're forcing me to make a choice. I don't care enough to make it. So, I resort to having something else make it for me, luck.

[Blizzard]

But tossing a coin is already caring that you have to come to a decision.

[Fallen Angel X]

Well, not necessarily. It's not that I care to make the decision, but rather, that I'm being forced to make a decision. You're putting the person in a position where they have to address the circumstances, whether they like it or not. If they weren't in that position, they wouldn't care enough to be bothered with it. They'd simply ignore it.

[Blizzard]

You don't have to toss the coin. If you toss it, you force yourself. The action (the coin tossing) that forces an action upon yourself has to be initiated which requires motivation. And since we came to the conclusion that motivation is caring, it means that tossing the coin is not a solution.

But I understand what you mean. Tossing the coin was supposed to be external and unrelated to the button pushing. Since you don't have anymore control over it after you toss the coin, you're not influencing the decision directly that you make about the button. But you do have to make it indirectly. Cause and consequence.

[Fallen Angel X]

And since we came to the conclusion that motivation is caring, it means that tossing the coin is not a solution.

But that's assuming your conclusion is the correct conclusion. As this is a debate, it's easily argueable that motivation is not caring.

The person doesn't care about anything. He's introduced to a machine that can destroy the world with a push of a button. They don't really care about it, so they'd normally ignore it. However, that can't be the case. Now, they're being forced to make a decision. They don't care to make the decision, so they leave it to an external factor. They toss a coin. It's not that they care to make the decision, per se. Rather, it's that they're in a position where they HAVE to make a decision. And yes, you're right, you don't have to toss the coin. But, the fact is, you have to make a decision. The motivation behind the coin tossing isn't caring, rather, it's an external factor that's saying they absolutely have to make a decision. Hence, I could probably argue that caring isn't motivation but a major factor in motivation, but there are also other factors that come into play behind motivation.

[Blizzard]

If we see this situation as a realistic one, we will never come to a solution, because in a realistic situation there are factors that you don't know of. This is a limited and hypothetical situation. I explained the limitations. We are at one moment in time (one frame of time if you will) and in this one moment a decision needs to be made. There is no continuous progress of time. I thought that was clear from the description of the situation. The only thing that is not bound to this rule is the reasoning assuming it was done before the moment where the decision has to be done or assuming it can be done instantly at this moment in time followed by the actual decision.
My point is that any reasoning to decide is already a paradoxal outcome because not caring doesn't permit reasoning beforehand. Reasoning includes a motivation and it's impossible to come to a decision unless there is some reasoning behind it regardless if it's just one or a million facts. I would say that this situation cannot be solved because we do not have the prerequisites to solve it. The question is: Am I right or am I wrong? If I am wrong, then how can we have reasoning which is not a product of caring or motivation? Or let's specialize the question assuming your idea that caring is just a part of motivation: How can we have reasoning which is not a product of caring?

[fugibo]

The real question with all of this is:

...how many casts of Auto-Life do you have ready?

[Fallen Angel X]

I have built a world-destruction device. And I don't care about my own life. Should I activate it? If so, why? If no, why?

If we see this situation as a realistic one, we will never come to a solution, because in a realistic situation there are factors that you don't know of. This is a limited and hypothetical situation. I explained the limitations. We are at one moment in time (one frame of time if you will) and in this one moment a decision needs to be made. There is no continuous progress of time. I thought that was clear from the description of the situation.

That's not a really clear description of the situation.

-noun 1. a state of mind in which one is troubled; worry, anxiety, or concern: He was never free from care.  
2. a cause or object of worry, anxiety, concern, etc.: Their son has always been a great care to them.  
3. serious attention; solicitude; heed; caution: She devotes great care to her work.  
4. protection; charge: He is under the care of a doctor.  
5. temporary keeping, as for the benefit of or until claimed by the owner: He left his valuables in the care of friends. Address my mail in care of the American Embassy.  
6. grief; suffering; sorrow.

-verb (used without object) 7. to be concerned or solicitous; have thought or regard.
8. to be concerned or have a special preference (usually used in negative constructions): I don't care if I do.  
9. to make provision or look out (usually fol. by for): Will you care for the children while I am away?  
10. to have an inclination, liking, fondness, or affection (usually fol. by for): Would you care for dessert? I don't care for him very much.  

-verb (used with object) 11. to feel concern about: He doesn't care what others say.  
12. to wish; desire; like: Would you care to dance?  

--Idioms13. couldn't care less, could not care less; be completely unconcerned: I couldn't care less whether she goes to the party or not. Also, could care less.
14. take care, a. be alert; be careful: Take care that you don't fall on the ice!  
b. take care of yourself; goodbye: used as an expression of parting.

15. take care of, a. to watch over; be responsible for: to take care of an invalid.  
b. to act on; deal with; attend to: to take care of paying a bill.  

-noun 1. the act or an instance of motivating.
2. the state or condition of being motivated.
3. something that motivates; inducement; incentive.

To be motivated, there needs to be an incentive. Because you care for something, it can act as an incentive. However, an incentive isn't limited to that. I could have the reasoning, "Hey, pushing this button might be fun". The incentive behind that is that it might be fun. It's not that I care about the fun itself, it's more of that I just feel like doing it.