School System (Split from: I miss school)

[Subsonic_Noise]

I'd rather never have school again. Every time I had school last year, I had to think about all the better things I could do in the same time... because I don't learn anything useful anymore besides in a few classes (music, german, politics.. that should be about it, my english class didn't improve my english at all). My brain rather gets filled up with alot of useless information. If I wouldn't have school anymore I could be studying music next year. But no, I have to go there and pet it steal my time I could use on so many things that arw worth much more.. I hate it.
No, I don't need school. No, I don't miss it.

by Blizz: Generally this is a topic about the necessity of school systems. Are they required or not?

[Blizzard]

No, I don't need school.

That doesn't even matter. It's against the law not to go to school up to a certain class or age, depending on the country. If you don't go to school, your parents will have trouble.

Also, who are you to decide? So you're smarter than everybody else and are able to decide whether you need or don't need school. That's very naive from you.

EDIT: How about we make a topic in ID about that? I agree that you can learn many things outside school, but that doesn't render school obsolete.

[Subsonic_Noise]

No, I don't need school.

That doesn't even matter. It's against the law not to go to school up to a certain class or age, depending on the country. If you don't go to school, your parents will have trouble.

Also, who are you to decide? So you're smarter than everybody else and are able to decide whether you need or don't need school. That's very naive from you.

EDIT: How about we make a topic in ID about that? I agree that you can learn many things outside school, but that doesn't render school obsolete.

I'm outside the age where I need to go to school. And yes, I can decide that, how does it imply that I think I'm smarter than everybody else? I'm pretty sure I know myself and my abilities alot better than most people. I don't need this kind of school system. My abilities are focused on certain areas (Like language, at least german, english in some parts too, at least I was considered the second best in our class, music, politics and sometimes philosophy and physics) and I'm pretty much useless in some other subjects. So, this kind of school system is not the right thing for me. I have enough other options. So where is your problem with that?

[Blizzard]

I said new thread in Intelligent Debate. *points to ID*

how does it imply that I think I'm smarter than everybody else?

No, I don't need school.

I don't need this kind of school system.

I ask you: How does it not?

My abilities are focused on certain areas (Like language, at least german, english in some parts too, at least I was considered the second best in our class, music, politics and sometimes philosophy and physics)

That doesn't make you good overall. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
Also, I don't believe you could match your knowledge even close to somebody on a college level. I should know, because I tried. I was like "Pfft, I'm good with language, I know that." right before I was crushed by a friend (that was a few months ago) who has now a master degree in language. That evening she showed me how little I know.

So where is your problem with that?

I think that you are wrong and I am trying to provide facts to find out if you are wrong.

EDIT: I think I'll split this topic.

EDIT: Done. Let's continue the discussion.

[Subsonic_Noise]

I ask you: How does it not?

This school system doesn't suit me, but it does suit others. That doesn't imply I'm better than those, just not talented in the same way. People are different. I'm not better than anybody.

That doesn't make you good overall. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
Also, I don't believe you could match your knowledge even close to somebody on a college level. I should know, because I tried. I was like "Pfft, I'm good with language, I know that." right before I was crushed by a friend (that was a few months ago) who has now a master degree in language. That evening she showed me how little I know..

Did I say I was good overall? Did I say I can match the knowledge of a college student? I did neither. I just said I have talents in certain areas. That's it. Talent is not knowledge, but it can be used to acquire knowledge. All I was trying to say with that is that I would be better off on a specialized school. We, for a fact, have enough schools here with a focus on language, music, or physics, and when I'm lucky I might be able to get on a music school in a year or two. Everything is better than normal school here. Believe me, our school system is one of the worst in europe (if not the worst). I'm too lazy to get the PISA test results for german schools, but if you insist on it, I will.

[Blizzard]

It didn't sound like that when you were talking about it earlier. I definitely hope you get in the music school you want.

I know that German schools aren't good, but I don't think they are the worst.
Our system is harder than yours, but it's also a lot more unbalanced and incomplete. Especially the new college system. It's supposed to be following European standards, but it's totally different from actual European colleges. -_- The only thing we have actually in common is ECTS points and the title you get when you graduate. Completely idiotic if you ask me.
I think German schools should become harder. It's probably the simple effect of "It's not hard, I won't study" that ends up causing students to have a lot worse grades than they normally would have. If the schools were harder, I think that it would scare the students to invest some time into studying.

[Agckuu Coceg]

I personally think the transition to "western school system", which we have held for several years, a piece of shit.

Learning System - manure. The mass training material is totally left data, right up to Napoleon's pants after his failure in the battle of Borodino.

System testing - SHIT AND STILL ANY. Given the fact that it affects the choice of learning a profession in high school (and this happens), it is unable to fully unleash the potential of the student. All the recent years simply hand cramming answers to tests. And considering that none of the test is not immune from mistakes (and even more so here, where the number of matches with the right questions in test books is only 65-75%), this turns into a big nightmare.

The twelve-year education system - crap. The older generation were eight classes of learning, but what were the people are they!

Together with the collapse of the Soviet Union, we pissed away one of the best educational systems in the world. And now we transited on the Western system, although it is much poorer Soviet educational system. I'm not only one time to say it - WESTERN EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM IS SUCKS.

And even if I have long been studying at the university, but I still empathize those guys who have to suffer all this humiliation.

[Subsonic_Noise]

I think schools, especially the german ones, should recognise that people devolop tendencies and talents and support those instead of limiting them. I mean, here in germany, we can for the first time chose our main subjects ourselves after 10 or 11 years. I mean, seriously. And then, we can't even chose them freely. I wanted to chose German and Music.. BUT NO, that's impossible, we've got to chose one science or one foreign language. So, Philosophy and Music is impossible, too, as is Politics and Music. So I wanted to chose Physics and Music, but hey, Physics is obviously not important enough to be a first main subject, and neither is music. So, another impossible choice. What is so wrong about being talented in two subjects that aren't science or a foreign language?
And this is only one of many examples. Schools should seriously become more dynamic instead of trying to force every single student through the same template. Sure, a common general education should be given, but nobody says that that doesn't work with the student picking focus areas.

[Blizzard]

Wait a moment. While I was still in Germany, you could pick a school after 6 years already. If you were going to Gymnasium, in some cases you could do that after 4 years already. What happened to Hauptschule, Realschule and Gymnasium anyway? O_o

[Subsonic_Noise]

Wait a moment. While I was still in Germany, you could pick a school after 6 years already. If you were going to Gymnasium, in some cases you could do that after 4 years already. What happened to Hauptschule, Realschule and Gymnasium anyway? O_o

Still exists, that's not what I meant. Those are chosen after 4 years, by the way. Who the hell came up with the idea that you'll know the full potential of a student after 4 years already? If you go to a hauptschule, or sometimes even a Realschule, your chances are really low to get to a gymnasium, and if you weren't at a gymnasium, you can't study. Is that really a thing you should decide after 4 years?

[Blizzard]

I remember Förderstufe after 4 years. It lasted another 2 years and then you could make your pick. That's 6 years, not 4.

I think you are complaining here just for the sake of it. If you don't like it so early and if you don't like it to late, when do you want it then? I personally had no problems to decide after 4 years already. Lots of people I know here now didn't even know after 8 years (this is how long elementary schooling takes here) and a good part even after 12 years (elementary + middle school) what they want. Heck, some of them don't even know it now, after freaking 17 years (all before + college). So I think that you are trying to adjust the entire system to suit YOUR needs rather than the needs of the students. You have to realize that most people don't know what to do with their lives. People like you and me are the minority, people who know what they want and what they like to do.

While I agree that students should pick more courses they like, there are two major problems.

In the last 5 years while going to college they allowed as the freedom of choosing 2 courses out of about 7 or 8 (from 6 courses in the semester, we couldn't choose 4). You know what happened? A medium catastrophe. The schedule of the exams was screwed. Loads of the exams were on the same day, even at the same time. Not to talk about people that still had stuff from other semesters. They had to find a schedule that would allow each student not to miss any of their exams. It was originally thought that students could be grouped into groups (where a group would have all students with the exact same courses) for which a schedule was necessary, but it turned out that the groups were so small in most cases (just a handful of students), that the system (yes, we have a program) had to calculate a schedule considering almost every single student (our college has about 3000 students). It usually takes 3 days on a server cluster of several quad core CPUs to find a schedule that works.
The schools don't allow that kind of program because it would make organization almost impossible. There's a good reason why we are forced through template schooling.

The second problem is a term you should be familiar with: Fachidiot. If you can't multiply two numbers or don't know how gravity works (in case you fall), all your music knowledge is in vain. Knowing only one thing, regardless how well you know it, makes you annoying to other people because you can't talk about anything else than that one particular thing.

The schooling system wasn't invented by a 11-year old, it's a system based and composed of decades and centuries of experience. It is a system that continues to evolve and change to adapt to the needs of the masses. It can't ignore the need of the masses for the benefit of one person or only a small group of people. While I agree that the system sometimes evolves in the wrong ways and that there are things that should be fixed and improved, it can very easily happen that fixing one issue can bring a lot more new problems or complications. e.g. At my college they have adapted the new system in a manner like middle school (high school in the US). Rather than having a whole semester to prepare yourself for the final exams, you have minor exams continuously. While the courses have become easier because of that and knowledge is gained chunk by chunk, it also caused the degree of knowledge to drop drastically and knowledge is quickly forgotten after the exams are over. I know a collegue who hasn't seen object oriented programming after 3 years of college. That is just ridiculous. The biggest problem is that now they are trying to make courses artificially harder by making those minor exams a lot harder. In the end you have a harder system that is also worse than the previous one.
But we got choices, yay. We can pick a few optional courses, yay. Honestly, fuck that one course out of 6 (in average per semester) if it comes at a price like this. They made it freaking annoying and hard anyway, whatever course I choose.

EDIT: Thank God, I'm done with that college already and don't have to take their shit anymore.

[Subsonic_Noise]

I remember Förderstufe after 4 years. It lasted another 2 years and then you could make your pick. That's 6 years, not 4.

That depends on your area. There's no förderstufe here.

I think you are complaining here just for the sake of it. If you don't like it so early and if you don't like it to late, when do you want it then? I personally had no problems to decide after 4 years already. Lots of people I know here now didn't even know after 8 years (this is how long elementary schooling takes here) and a good part even after 12 years (elementary + middle school) what they want. Heck, some of them don't even know it now, after freaking 17 years (all before + college). So I think that you are trying to adjust the entire system to suit YOUR needs rather than the needs of the students. You have to realize that most people don't know what to do with their lives. People like you and me are the minority, people who know what they want and what they like to do.

Nope, you got it all wrong here. After 4 years, there is a decision on which school you can go. But you don't decide this yourself, your teachers do this. And I don't think a decision that affects your whole life should be done this early. Now what you can do after 10 years is choose main subjects, which seriously could be done earlier. Even if it would be after 9 years, that already would have made a big difference. Now for wanting to suit it my needs: First of, I got send to gymnasium after 4 years, and would have gotten the same after 6 years - but many of my friends where send to a hauptschule, but now it's obvious that they would have been far better off on a gymnasium if they would have had a chance - those two years could have made a difference. And this isn't just something that happens sometimes, it actually happens to alot of people - but getting from a hauptschule to a gymnasium is very difficult.
Germany will actually probably change this soon, and in case the left wing parties will get enough votes next time we will soon have a 6 years elementary school.

While I agree that students should pick more courses they like, there are two major problems.

In the last 5 years while going to college they allowed as the freedom of choosing 2 courses out of about 7 or 8 (from 6 courses in the semester, we couldn't choose 4). You know what happened? A medium catastrophe. The schedule of the exams was screwed. Loads of the exams were on the same day, even at the same time. Not to talk about people that still had stuff from other semesters. They had to find a schedule that would allow each student not to miss any of their exams. It was originally thought that students could be grouped into groups (where a group would have all students with the exact same courses) for which a schedule was necessary, but it turned out that the groups were so small in most cases (just a handful of students), that the system (yes, we have a program) had to calculate a schedule considering almost every single student (our college has about 3000 students). It usually takes 3 days on a server cluster of several quad core CPUs to find a schedule that works.
The schools don't allow that kind of program because it would make organization almost impossible. There's a good reason why we are forced through template schooling.

Then your college is badly organized, sorry xD We actually have a similar system here after 10 years, just that it has major flaws (as I explained earlier). The shedules are done after a complicated system my one teacher and one computer, and it always works - we are 1400 students on our school and everyone always gets a working schedule.
So it can definitely be done. Just right now it doesn't work as it is supposed to work.

The second problem is a term you should be familiar with: Fachidiot. If you can't multiply two numbers or don't know how gravity works (in case you fall), all your music knowledge is in vain. Knowing only one thing, regardless how well you know it, makes you annoying to other people because you can't talk about anything else than that one particular thing.

Yes, but those are things you learn pretty early. I get what you are trying to say though, and that is why I never said you should be able to drop every subject you don't like. There certainly are subjects you can drop, but you still should have to keep certain subjects. Let's say you only had two subjects, for the sake of simplicity. For example Maths and Music. Now you chose Music as your main subject, but that doesn't mean you drop maths, you just now have a shedule of 5 hours music and 3 hours maths. You still get your basic general education, but your talents are supported.

The schooling system wasn't invented by a 11-year old, it's a system based and composed of decades and centuries of experience.

That doesn't make it good. That's actually one of the biggest problems: Over those years, instead of even once giving it a major overhaul, it was extended, spit up and partially modificated, until it now in certain things even defies common sense - ever heard of G8?

It is a system that continues to evolve and change to adapt to the needs of the masses. It can't ignore the need of the masses for the benefit of one person or only a small group of people. While I agree that the system sometimes evolves in the wrong ways and that there are things that should be fixed and improved, it can very easily happen that fixing one issue can bring a lot more new problems or complications.

Now you are basically saying what I said up there but I don't feel like editing it.

e.g. At my college they have adapted the new system in a manner like middle school (high school in the US). Rather than having a whole semester to prepare yourself for the final exams, you have minor exams continuously. While the courses have become easier because of that and knowledge is gained chunk by chunk, it also caused the degree of knowledge to drop drastically and knowledge is quickly forgotten after the exams are over. I know a collegue who hasn't seen object oriented programming after 3 years of college. That is just ridiculous. The biggest problem is that now they are trying to make courses artificially harder by making those minor exams a lot harder. In the end you have a harder system that is also worse than the previous one.
But we got choices, yay. We can pick a few optional courses, yay. Honestly, fuck that one course out of 6 (in average per semester) if it comes at a price like this. They made it freaking annoying and hard anyway, whatever course I choose.

I'm not saying those choices automatically make a school system perfect. There is alot that needs to be done and there are many good concepts out there that could actually work pretty well, we would just once need a government that would actually do something as big as changing a school system. Sadly, conseratives seem to be overpowering in the last few elections.

EDIT: Thank God, I'm done with that college already and don't have to take their shit anymore.

[Blizzard]

I think you are complaining here just for the sake of it. If you don't like it so early and if you don't like it to late, when do you want it then? I personally had no problems to decide after 4 years already. Lots of people I know here now didn't even know after 8 years (this is how long elementary schooling takes here) and a good part even after 12 years (elementary + middle school) what they want. Heck, some of them don't even know it now, after freaking 17 years (all before + college). So I think that you are trying to adjust the entire system to suit YOUR needs rather than the needs of the students. You have to realize that most people don't know what to do with their lives. People like you and me are the minority, people who know what they want and what they like to do.

I seriously hope they fix this. In the region where I was (Hessen), your teachers don't decide, they only give advice. Sucks to be in your region. :/

I personally agree that after 4 years is way too early. I think that 8 years is alright. You're not a child anymore, but you haven't yet spent a big part (actually not big but most important) of your schooling on nonsense or stuff that doesn't interest you.

Then your college is badly organized, sorry xD We actually have a similar system here after 10 years, just that it has major flaws (as I explained earlier). The shedules are done after a complicated system my one teacher and one computer, and it always works - we are 1400 students on our school and everyone always gets a working schedule.
So it can definitely be done. Just right now it doesn't work as it is supposed to work.

Yeah, my college was messed up. xD I'm not saying it can't be done, it just becomes harder. Of course the people in power are mostly lazy asses who won't move their ass out of the chair to make a significant change and a good organization.

Yes, but those are things you learn pretty early. I get what you are trying to say though, and that is why I never said you should be able to drop every subject you don't like. There certainly are subjects you can drop, but you still should have to keep certain subjects. Let's say you only had two subjects, for the sake of simplicity. For example Maths and Music. Now you chose Music as your main subject, but that doesn't mean you drop maths, you just now have a shedule of 5 hours music and 3 hours maths. You still get your basic general education, but your talents are supported.

I agree on the rescheduling of the hours invested in a course. That seems to be a good idea. The only problem is that they will need 2 new courses for each course. Basic Math and Advanced Math. That's because most students won't be able to keep track if all had to sign up for one course that covers both or there need to be at least two different exams depending on which degree of difficulty you have chosen. More courses or different exams always complicate things and people don't like complications. :/

I'm not saying those choices automatically make a school system perfect. There is alot that needs to be done and there are many good concepts out there that could actually work pretty well, we would just once need a government that would actually do something as big as changing a school system. Sadly, conseratives seem to be overpowering in the last few elections.

I totally agree. I have witnessed a system like that and there was definitely room for improvement. But yet again, nobody did anything against it. :/
It's not so much a problem with conservatives as it's a problem with people. The last few generations all have a mentality to just "swallow it up and go on". That's not right. Sure, one shouldn't complain about every single minor problem, but that doesn't mean you have to take every shit. I thought only our country had that problem, but now I realize the whole world has become like that. :/

In general it seems to me that the biggest problem is that most people in power are just too lazy to make any changes.

[Vell]

Inertia is a really powerful incentive. People will do anything, or not do anything, so that their lives aren't changed in any significant way.

[Subsonic_Noise]

Inertia is a really powerful incentive. People will do anything, or not do anything, so that their lives aren't changed in any significant way.

Sad but true.