Skill Games

[winkio]

So youtube randomly decided that I would enjoy watching videos of classic nintendo games (SNES, N64, etc.).  They were right, of course.  As I was watching them, I was thinking about what made those games fun, and why I felt like many of the games I have experienced today don't seem as fun.  These are my thoughts:

Those classic games were skill games.  Sure, most were single player, but the most enjoyable part about them was just playing them well.  Not the story, the graphics, or any of that stuff, but the controls, the reflexes, the speed, and the excitement.  Now, most of these aren't present in RPG games, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be. 

To take a classic example, Super Mario RPG took skill in traversing the map in order to find hidden items, avoid enemies, complete challenges, or play minigames.  Even in battle, you got bonus damage and defense if your reflexes were good enough.

Now, for a non-RPG example, Kirby Superstar.  That was a game you could play over and over and over and over, mastering new abilities each time.  Making it through a level with a certain ability or killing a boss a special way was very satisfying.

After realizing this, I'm going to be making a conscious effort to try and make my games more 'skilled.'  What do you guys think?

[Blizzard]

Definitely. You know what my cousin said about FF13?

Sure, it's Final Fantasy and all. But the game is way too easy. It's not the fact that it's easy that bothers me but the fact that everything is so automated. The game is literally idiot proof. When the battle is over, you get healed automatically. When you die, you don't get back to the last save point but only continue from where you entered the last battle. You even have no control over your party members.

From what I saw of the game at his place, you can win battles without doing anything. You can play through the whole game like that. Just grind a lot (again, without actually playing) and then go beat up the next boss. It's a no-brainer. :/

[Subsonic_Noise]

I recently noticed that , too, when i got my emulators for my IPhone I replayed alot of old games, and holy hell, some if them where difficult. I mean, In Super Mario Land 2, you even lost all your progress when you were out of lifes (Though that didn't happen this time) and in Zeldait was actually difficult to find new dungeons and solve side quests.
But that aside, yes, games back then were much more based on skills, especially the battle systems.

[Ryex]

this is why I loved the Golden sun games. it wasn't as simple as walking through a maze while grinding and then launching an all out attack on the boss, with the same strategy working on every boss in the game. no, you had to think, solve puzzles just to find out where to go next, then you had to solve more puzzles to get to your goal. and then when fighting the boss you had to find its week points other wise failure was a real possibility. the extra bosses were especially difficult, one of them could use your set dijin agenced you, another was immune to psyenergy, another was so well balanced in its strengths that defeating it took real skill not just strength. and the last was just so over overwhelmingly powerful that the only way I found to beat it was an all out suicide attack. no really I have one pary member left out of 8 with 58/2356 hp when he finally went down.

it was made better because it had good story and good graphics (for it's platform).

I'll stand by this statement. a good game is one that challenges you in a way that requires skill.
my friend made a remark that playing FF13 was akin to watching a movie with interactive cut-scenes

[Blizzard]

I hope CP does that. xD

[poxy]

I have to disagree. What made the classic RPGs good is the story and characters. CT and FF7 are considered classics, and they had awesome and engaging stories. Later renditions of FF series are just badly repeated cliches, shallow characters (FFX is a great example, as every character seemed mentally handicapped), or poorly grounded story ideas (FF8). These games were also new and fresh. They were not cliches.

Puzzles were more in the NES era games. When I play an RPG it's primarily because I'm into the story. There are puzzle games and there are RPGs...

[Cid]

From what I saw of the game at his place, you can win battles without doing anything. You can play through the whole game like that. Just grind a lot (again, without actually playing) and then go beat up the next boss. It's a no-brainer. :/

Actually, they took pretty drastic anti-grind measures with FFXIII. The growth system is restricted and expands after each chapter. You don't get complete access until after the final boss.

Anyway, as RPGs are supposed to be games of numbers first and foremost, I think the ideal reflex systems would be affected by character attributes. For example, when using a bow, you'd need to drag a crosshair over the enemy which would remain relatively still or shake erratically depending on your accuracy stat. Combined with the ability to target individual sections/limbs of your enemies, you'd be able to strike weak points more consistently with higher accuracy, or be lucky to hit anything at all at lower values. Furthermore, your proficiency with bows would determine how many arrows you could actually fire.

Aside from that, I think the best way of implementing skill into an RPG is through good ol' fashioned strategy. Simply force the player to think about what they're doing in battle.

[poxy]

Sorry for double post - half asleep.

Edit: Just a side note: skill and reflexes are more involved in fps games. The bottom line is, for a Role playing game the role has to be convincing and engaging. I wouldn't skim through a crappy story for the gameplay, if the story is supposed to be the center piece.

[RoseSkye]

So youtube randomly decided that I would enjoy watching videos of classic nintendo games (SNES, N64, etc.).  They were right, of course.  As I was watching them, I was thinking about what made those games fun, and why I felt like many of the games I have experienced today don't seem as fun.  These are my thoughts:

Those classic games were skill games.  Sure, most were single player, but the most enjoyable part about them was just playing them well.  Not the story, the graphics, or any of that stuff, but the controls, the reflexes, the speed, and the excitement.  Now, most of these aren't present in RPG games, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be. 

To take a classic example, Super Mario RPG took skill in traversing the map in order to find hidden items, avoid enemies, complete challenges, or play minigames.  Even in battle, you got bonus damage and defense if your reflexes were good enough.

Now, for a non-RPG example, Kirby Superstar.  That was a game you could play over and over and over and over, mastering new abilities each time.  Making it through a level with a certain ability or killing a boss a special way was very satisfying.

After realizing this, I'm going to be making a conscious effort to try and make my games more 'skilled.'  What do you guys think?

I guess I'll have to play captain obvious... What made those games most fun was the bar wasn't set as high as it is today.

[winkio]

Just a side note: skill and reflexes are more involved in fps games. The bottom line is, for a Role playing game the role has to be convincing and engaging. I wouldn't skim through a crappy story for the gameplay, if the story is supposed to be the center piece.

So just because a game is story centered, it's okay if the gameplay is crap?  My point wasn't that games should be all gameplay and nothing else.  Rather, it was that people are focusing so much on developing the story and the graphics that they are forgetting about developing the gameplay as well.  There's no reason that a game can't have everything polished.

[36inc]

my friend made a remark that playing FF13 was akin to watching a movie with interactive cut-scenes

FF Ive been a loyal fan.I loved X and I enjoyed 12
but 13 is an unforgivable piece of shit.
ill even llive throgh 8 agian before playing that ever agian

[Blizzard]

It's interesting to see so many different combinations. I liked 8 and what I played of 12, but I hated 10. The characters were awkward, annoying and unreal. I noticed that 8 is a love-hate game. Some love it, others hate it. There is no in-between. Of course, 13 sucked from I've seen (not heard).

EDIT: Oh god, I rhymed that. ._.

[Ryex]

your a poet and didn't know it!

shortest poem in the world,
"Me, we" -Ali

[36inc]

It's interesting to see so many different combinations. I liked 8 and what I played of 12, but I hated 10. The characters were awkward, annoying and unreal. I noticed that 8 is a love-hate game. Some love it, others hate it. There is no in-between. Of course, 13 sucked from I've seen (not heard).

I liked 8 somewhat its game play was trying to be original and different and the story was different side of square,so it was bound to get alot of love hate response.
I know one critic personaly made 9 videos disscussing how he thought it was complete shit.and even played through it.

X for me was All game play,only three of the characters are likable.

Lulu,Auron and Kimahri. My personal team.
I love the sphere grid idea and wished they would expand that style in 11,because I thought it would be cool if you could add stuff to it.using friend spheres to get abilities from your party.
the story was pretty hit or miss too.And i personaly think Wakka is a white* supremacist irl.Cause he says things that are simply insensitive.


"Boom like happy festival fireworks"
-on the subject of blowing up Home.

[Subsonic_Noise]

It's interesting to see so many different combinations. I liked 8 and what I played of 12, but I hated 10. The characters were awkward, annoying and unreal. I noticed that 8 is a love-hate game. Some love it, others hate it. There is no in-between. Of course, 13 sucked from I've seen (not heard).

I liked 8 somewhat its game play was trying to be original and different and the story was different side of square,so it was bound to get alot of love hate response.
I know one critic personaly made 9 videos disscussing how he thought it was complete shit.and even played through it.

X for me was All game play,only three of the characters are likable.

Lulu,Auron and Kimahri. My personal team.
I love the sphere grid idea and wished they would expand that style in 11,because I thought it would be cool if you could add stuff to it.using friend spheres to get abilities from your party.
the story was pretty hit or miss too.And i personaly think Wakka is a white* supremacist irl.Cause he says things that are simply insensitive.


"Boom like happy festival fireworks"
-on the subject of blowing up Home.

Because white supremaciats definitely are the only persons i this world who say insensitive things.

Also, I never liked any final fantasy games, and trust me I tired. They jus could never match any of the tales games for me in terms of having realistic characters and a story that actually moves me.

[36inc]

Because white supremaciats definitely are the only persons i this world who say insensitive things.

Also, I never liked any final fantasy games, and trust me I tired. They jus could never match any of the tales games for me in terms of having realistic characters and a story that actually moves me.

Well He hates the Al bed. which is kinda like a race apart from his own.
Wakka says simular things anyone would hear a white supremacist say.After all
he compared their home country being burned to ashes as "happy festival fireworks"
And I think the same way kinda FF is great but persona games are definitely better.

If I had to list my favorite 10 RPGs there would only be 1 FF
and of course thats VII.

it would look something like this.

10: Zelda (Ocarina of time)
9:Disgea 2
8:blue dragon series
7:Dark cload series
6:Paper mario
5:Frontier saGa
4:Kingdom hearts
3:FFVII
2:Xenosaga
1:persona series

[Blizzard]

Alright, but let's not let this become a topic about FF.

So... Super Mario 64. That game had a certain degree of difficulty if you have never played a 3D game before.

[36inc]

Alright, but let's not let this become a topic about FF.

So... Super Mario 64. That game had a certain degree of difficulty if you have never played a 3D game before.

Nah its was fun though.
A game I remember for being totaly skill needed was bushido blade.

[Blizzard]

Chaos Legion was quite hard on hard mode. And I remember Mario Party. Wow, that game had a few really difficulty minigames. The racing one was pure hell. (I'm talking about single-player, Minigame Island.)

[36inc]

Chaos Legion was quite hard on hard mode. And I remember Mario Party. Wow, that game had a few really difficulty minigames. The racing one was pure hell. (I'm talking about single-player, Minigame Island.)

Omg I love chaos legion!!