Skill Games

Started by winkio, September 28, 2010, 12:28:48 am

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poxy

October 30, 2010, 10:26:33 pm #40 Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 10:53:35 pm by poxy
If muscle memory is trained reaction to external stimuli, then so are these so called skill games.
Regardless if you face a human opponent, you would still use and build your "skillset" for that game to adapt to the new stimuli. Basically any game you'd play, whether it'd be a short pre-programmed game like Mario or a game where you adapt to circumstance of opponent, it's based on your ability to learn to respond to stimuli to produce desired feedback. This is like comparing playing the piano to boxing. You'd could be called skilled at either because you're brain is better at responding to stimuli and feedback of either the sound the piano makes when you hit the keys or the dodging and throwing of punches to avoid pain and deal blows to your opponent. You'd be called skilled because you're better trained to respond to the specific stimulus than someone who's never done it.

What about story? That is not trained response, at least not as simple as that. Gameplay could be fun and addictive but to me it's a good (or really bad) story that leaves a lasting impression.

Edit: Reygekan you were making a good point, but it lost substance in semantics. But I see and agree with the thing about challenge of gameplay. Adaptation of play style would really make a game stand out, unless of course it totally detracted from other aspects such as story or atmosphere.
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Spaceman McConaughey

Well, I always play a game if it's fun, you know.

Fuck skill. I do not give a rat's ass about whether it needs skill or doesn't; just if it's fun.

So let's all quit our bitching, yeah? I mean, before this thread heads into the stages of mega-faggotry.

winkio

It already went there, because almost nobody understood what I was saying in my first post.

Blizzard

November 01, 2010, 03:09:14 pm #43 Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 03:10:45 pm by Blizzard
I actually did understand everything you said up to this point. ._.

I fail to see why training does not develop a skill. Training is the very definition of improving a skill. Training oneself to respond to certain situations in certain ways IS developing a skill. A skill is an automated set of responses that have a meaning in a certain context. Whatever you do in your life for the first time, it will not be done well. Through repetition you will learn to do it better and better each time, developing a skill in that area. Of course, different skills aren't mutually exclusive. If you are a good chess player, chances are high that you will be good at anything that requires memory, reading tactics and foreseeing possible outcomes. That's why they say that strategy games help build organizational skills and FPS-es help improve eye reflexes and increase eye-hand coordination.

To me it seemed that Rey was saying that my above statement is not true.

@Branden: Are you saying that you actually LIKE casual games? I'm breaking up with you.
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RoseSkye

*sets curtain on fire to spark flame war* *leaves thread*

Reygekan

Quote from: Blizzard on November 01, 2010, 03:09:14 pm
I actually did understand everything you said up to this point. ._.

I fail to see why training does not develop a skill. Training is the very definition of improving a skill. Training oneself to respond to certain situations in certain ways IS developing a skill. A skill is an automated set of responses that have a meaning in a certain context. Whatever you do in your life for the first time, it will not be done well. Through repetition you will learn to do it better and better each time, developing a skill in that area. Of course, different skills aren't mutually exclusive. If you are a good chess player, chances are high that you will be good at anything that requires memory, reading tactics and foreseeing possible outcomes. That's why they say that strategy games help build organizational skills and FPS-es help improve eye reflexes and increase eye-hand coordination.

To me it seemed that Rey was saying that my above statement is not true.

@Branden: Are you saying that you actually LIKE casual games? I'm breaking up with you.


Let me clarify because I was unclear and this is all really  my fault.

A reaction is not a skill. You can train yourself in the same way you can train your muscles to be better, but training yourself to blink whenever you see green is not a skill, it's a programmed response.

We can also break this down and say certain types of reactions are skills, and yes, we can go over technicalities forever, in the same way I could argue with you, with 100% accuracy, the blue and green are almost exactly identical.

That statement was made in reference to older games with brutal difficulty, that required you to pretrain yourself to hit A before you consciously knew there was a danger at a precise time in order to avoid it. Then you'd run into the next, identical A button trap but since you weren't trained to jump under the orange cloud instead of the blue cloud, you would never jump over the trap.

If you could jump over both traps with equal accuracy without having to retrain yourself, you've developed quicker reflexes, which is a skill.

If you couldn't jump over the traps because your brain didn't have that preprorgrammed response, you've developed an unconscious reaction. You've been trained, like salivating dogs to a pavlovian bell.

The only reason I feel the need to address this is because it was common in older games which were "more skillful" than common games thanks to a brutal sense of difficulty. When I say train, I mean it in the pavlovian sense.

Button tapping I don't see as a skill, even though it technically is, simply for simiplicity's sake when talking about skill in videogame. A game can be skilled requiring faster reflexes, this is true, but being a primarily mental media the more significant tests of skills will come from mental qualities- thought time rather than button tapping time- and so I value reflexes as almost insignificant in comparison.

I use a lot of exaggeration when I type and extremify things to make a point, because it forces you to inspect things and pick apart my statements on a more technical level and take things that are true and false from what I say, but I was tired when I typed my post and it was poorly written so it came out a lot more off than I intended and a bit more confusing than it should've been.

Blizzard

November 02, 2010, 02:47:03 am #46 Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 02:48:56 am by Blizzard
Quote from: Reygekan on November 02, 2010, 01:25:53 am
A reaction is not a skill.


Then martial arts are not a skill. And that would be a contradiction.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Reygekan

If martial arts was composed of nothing but reactions I wouldn't consider it a skill, but it's not. A martial artist who builds himself entirely out of reactions becomes predictable at any competitive level (if we're not talking about the competitive level at all but just typical street use then it doesn't matter how skilled you are as long as you know the basic forms and techniques, unless you're up against other martial artists but then we're back to the competitive mindset anyway), and is probably going to accidentally break his friend's hand when they try to psych him out with a play punch.

winkio

Point of this thread: nobody cares about one individual's strict set of definitions.  Nobody cares if you don't consider reactions to be skill, because everyone else agrees that they are skill.  Just drop it.

Blizzard

Wow, he's really trying hard to push his opinion through as fact. D:
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

legacyblade

Trust me. As one who's taken different schools of martial arts for years, it's just training your muscles to react PROPERLY to external stimuli. Fighting games that are muscle memory-based are NOT mindless repetition. Like martial arts, there's quite a bit of skill going into training yourself to (mostly reflexively) recognize which situations call for which set of motions you've trained yourself to use. For example, in super smash brothers, you don't have time to think "oh, he's going to use a smash attack that will take .4 seconds to hit. If I press down-b in .1 second (as marth/ike/roy), I can reflect the attack. You just do it. But it's from training your skills :P

WhiteRose

*Looks at title*

Rock Band 3.

*Leaves*

Diokatsu

Uh, there is way too much in this topic to even begin to sift through.

I'll just say that I don't think you're all that right in saying RPGs or modern games lack skill in general, they just lack that particular skill which would be timing. However, I'd like to see a more classic game and I fully support your choice.

Also:
Quote from: WhiteRose on November 06, 2010, 03:46:01 pm
*Looks at title*

Rock Band 3.

*Leaves*

Subsonic_Noise

Chess. Definitely Chess.

Spaceman McConaughey

Quote from: WhiteRose on November 06, 2010, 03:46:01 pm
*Looks at title*

Rock Band 3.

*Leaves*


Don't worry, Reygekan will come up with another long post riddled with ignorance to try and say how that is not a skill game. ;)

Kagutsuchi


tSwitch

Quote from: Blizzard on November 01, 2010, 03:09:14 pm
@Branden: Are you saying that you actually LIKE casual games? I'm breaking up with you.


Let's be fair Blizzard, there are some pretty fun casual games out there.


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Blizzard

January 30, 2011, 04:59:34 am #57 Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 05:04:12 am by Blizzard
The exceptions confirm the rules. :) I have played a few fun casual games, but I think I'm not exaggerating if I say 99% of them are horrible or copies of a copy of a copy of a copy.
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King of Booze 2      King of Booze: Never Ever
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Kagutsuchi

I'm a huge zelda fan, the only thing that bugs me is how easy the zelda games actually are. I love the world, the story and the game mechanics are really good. But it is so easy I could probably play through it blindfolded with my hands cuffed behind my back. WTB Zelda game with multiple difficulties!

tSwitch

Quote from: Blizzard on January 30, 2011, 04:59:34 am
The exceptions confirm the rules. :) I have played a few fun casual games, but I think I'm not exaggerating if I say 99% of them are horrible or copies of a copy of a copy of a copy.


I agree, just saying it's not fair to those top-tier games that are truly fun. ;o


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