Few things to ponder

Started by Holyrapid, October 09, 2010, 11:49:02 am

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Holyrapid

So, inspired by a fellow members post on another forum, i got into a little thinking... Is it theft to steal back what's yours in the first place? And, are you allowed to steal from a thief?
Tell your opinions... After some deapte over this subject, we may change into another subject...

The Niche

It is of course, but it's justified. These kind of things all depend on one's own morality. Personally, I'm fine with stealing from a company, but not from a person. Or at least, not from someone who will notice the difference*.

*= The same applies to cyber theft, apart from the last bit.
Level me down, I'm trying to become the anti-blizz!
Quote from: winkio on June 15, 2011, 07:30:23 pm
Ah, excellent.  You liked my amusing sideshow, yes?  I'm just a simple fool, my wit entertains the wise, and my wisdom fools the fools.



I'm like the bible, widely hated and beautifully quotable.

Dropbox is this way, not any other way!

Blizzard

I see it as Robin Hood does. Stealing from those who have much anyway is less wrong than stealing from somebody who doesn't.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

ForeverZer0

I do not discriminate.
I steal from everybody just to be fair.
I am done scripting for RMXP. I will likely not offer support for even my own scripts anymore, but feel free to ask on the forum, there are plenty of other talented scripters that can help you.

The Niche

AAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH IT'S ALL SO COMPLICATED!!!!! *punches through a shop window and steals everything in the windowfront*

Ladies and gentlemen, windows vista in action.
Level me down, I'm trying to become the anti-blizz!
Quote from: winkio on June 15, 2011, 07:30:23 pm
Ah, excellent.  You liked my amusing sideshow, yes?  I'm just a simple fool, my wit entertains the wise, and my wisdom fools the fools.



I'm like the bible, widely hated and beautifully quotable.

Dropbox is this way, not any other way!

Diokatsu

Quote from: Blizzard on October 09, 2010, 12:18:38 pm
I see it as Robin Hood does. Stealing from those who have much anyway is less wrong than stealing from somebody who doesn't.


It's generally how I think of things. When people have so little, it's not right to take from them since they have  no way of dealing with the consequences that result. But if you have a lot, then you generally can cope without so much. It just seems more justified that way.

Subsonic_Noise

Rationally, I'd steal from everyone, but sadly my morals won't let me.

Is it still theft if you steal back what belonged to you? Theoretically, I'd say "yes", but that depends on so many things and is usually sofar from reality that I really don't bother thinking about it right now.
Is it wrong to steal from a thief? Counter question: Is it wrong to kill a murderer? For me it is. A person doing something wrong from your perspective doesn't give you the right to do the same to them in my eyes, unless of course when you believe in the old testament which is indeed a completely retarded thing to do.

Diokatsu

Quote from: Subsonic_Noise on October 12, 2010, 06:27:54 pm
Rationally, I'd steal from everyone, but sadly my morals won't let me.

Is it still theft if you steal back what belonged to you? Theoretically, I'd say "yes", but that depends on so many things and is usually sofar from reality that I really don't bother thinking about it right now.
Is it wrong to steal from a thief? Counter question: Is it wrong to kill a murderer? For me it is. A person doing something wrong from your perspective doesn't give you the right to do the same to them in my eyes, unless of course when you believe in the old testament which is indeed a completely retarded thing to do.


I consider the difference between killing and stealing to be a large one in terms of the moral quality of the action. Not all crimes inflict the same level of moral detraction, if you believe in that. Some people call that a double standard. I call it evaluating the situation in light of the circumstances and consequences.

So you can steal back that which is stolen, but to kill someone in response to them killing someone else seems to be generally a more serious crime and a more drastic response.

Subsonic_Noise

Quote from: Diokatsu on October 12, 2010, 06:57:07 pm
Quote from: Subsonic_Noise on October 12, 2010, 06:27:54 pm
Rationally, I'd steal from everyone, but sadly my morals won't let me.

Is it still theft if you steal back what belonged to you? Theoretically, I'd say "yes", but that depends on so many things and is usually sofar from reality that I really don't bother thinking about it right now.
Is it wrong to steal from a thief? Counter question: Is it wrong to kill a murderer? For me it is. A person doing something wrong from your perspective doesn't give you the right to do the same to them in my eyes, unless of course when you believe in the old testament which is indeed a completely retarded thing to do.


I consider the difference between killing and stealing to be a large one in terms of the moral quality of the action. Not all crimes inflict the same level of moral detraction, if you believe in that. Some people call that a double standard. I call it evaluating the situation in light of the circumstances and consequences.

So you can steal back that which is stolen, but to kill someone in response to them killing someone else seems to be generally a more serious crime and a more drastic response.

Yes, I agree with you and also that's not what I meant. Stealing back what was stolen might be justified, but nit stealing from a tief in general. That's still regular theft in my eyes, no matter what the thief did.
My exanple wasn't comparing theft with murder directly, but I was implying that you can't justify your actions with "but he/she did it, too." no matter what it's about. it doesn't matter which or how many persons someone kills, it doesn't give you the right to do the same to him, and for me, the same goes for thievery.

Diokatsu

Quote from: Subsonic_Noise on October 12, 2010, 07:16:06 pm
Quote from: Diokatsu on October 12, 2010, 06:57:07 pm
Quote from: Subsonic_Noise on October 12, 2010, 06:27:54 pm
Rationally, I'd steal from everyone, but sadly my morals won't let me.

Is it still theft if you steal back what belonged to you? Theoretically, I'd say "yes", but that depends on so many things and is usually sofar from reality that I really don't bother thinking about it right now.
Is it wrong to steal from a thief? Counter question: Is it wrong to kill a murderer? For me it is. A person doing something wrong from your perspective doesn't give you the right to do the same to them in my eyes, unless of course when you believe in the old testament which is indeed a completely retarded thing to do.


I consider the difference between killing and stealing to be a large one in terms of the moral quality of the action. Not all crimes inflict the same level of moral detraction, if you believe in that. Some people call that a double standard. I call it evaluating the situation in light of the circumstances and consequences.

So you can steal back that which is stolen, but to kill someone in response to them killing someone else seems to be generally a more serious crime and a more drastic response.

Yes, I agree with you and also that's not what I meant. Stealing back what was stolen might be justified, but nit stealing from a tief in general. That's still regular theft in my eyes, no matter what the thief did.
My exanple wasn't comparing theft with murder directly, but I was implying that you can't justify your actions with "but he/she did it, too." no matter what it's about. it doesn't matter which or how many persons someone kills, it doesn't give you the right to do the same to him, and for me, the same goes for thievery.


Oh alright. misread your reaction.

red.yoshi

Quote from: The Niche on October 09, 2010, 12:16:31 pm
It is of course, but it's justified. These kind of things all depend on one's own morality. Personally, I'm fine with stealing from a company, but not from a person. Or at least, not from someone who will notice the difference*.

*= The same applies to cyber theft, apart from the last bit.


I agree that they depend on one's own morality.

Your morality is forged by you yourself from experiences. Contributions to this are society, religions, etc.

Technically, it's not "stealing" unless someone perceives it as so. Your morality just labels things as right or wrong.

To look at in one way, we are just animals collecting piles and piles of stuff and selfishly labeling it as "ours" because we "worked for it" or something. :P
"So, I started reading this book called the Bible. It's pretty good so far."
"Jesus dies at the end."
"GODDAMNIT."

The Niche

That's a good point, actually. Technically, if you steal something, you have "worked" for it, so does that make it righfully yours?
I'd say no, because half the fun of stealing is getting away with it.
Level me down, I'm trying to become the anti-blizz!
Quote from: winkio on June 15, 2011, 07:30:23 pm
Ah, excellent.  You liked my amusing sideshow, yes?  I'm just a simple fool, my wit entertains the wise, and my wisdom fools the fools.



I'm like the bible, widely hated and beautifully quotable.

Dropbox is this way, not any other way!

winkio

what if, instead of stealing someone's possessions, you steal their family, their happiness, or their life.

Subsonic_Noise

Quote from: winkio on October 14, 2010, 11:27:40 am
what if, instead of stealing someone's possessions, you steal their family, their happiness, or their life.

Sounds like a plan. When do we start?

Blizzard

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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

The Niche

Alright, who'll we do it to? [cough]36inc[/cough]
Level me down, I'm trying to become the anti-blizz!
Quote from: winkio on June 15, 2011, 07:30:23 pm
Ah, excellent.  You liked my amusing sideshow, yes?  I'm just a simple fool, my wit entertains the wise, and my wisdom fools the fools.



I'm like the bible, widely hated and beautifully quotable.

Dropbox is this way, not any other way!

Blizzard

Too late, already did. := I took his pride.
Check out Daygames and our games:

King of Booze 2      King of Booze: Never Ever
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

The Niche

Can we steal other stuff from him? If we can, I want his virginity for the archives.
Level me down, I'm trying to become the anti-blizz!
Quote from: winkio on June 15, 2011, 07:30:23 pm
Ah, excellent.  You liked my amusing sideshow, yes?  I'm just a simple fool, my wit entertains the wise, and my wisdom fools the fools.



I'm like the bible, widely hated and beautifully quotable.

Dropbox is this way, not any other way!

Blizzard

You can have his soul. Oh wait, he doesn't have one. :=
Check out Daygames and our games:

King of Booze 2      King of Booze: Never Ever
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

red.yoshi

October 14, 2010, 03:09:14 pm #19 Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 03:13:47 pm by red.yoshi
Quote from: winkio on October 14, 2010, 11:27:40 am
what if, instead of stealing someone's possessions, you steal their family, their happiness, or their life.


Well, not to debase us if you have religious beliefs or anything of that matter, but if you look at it from an evolutionary standpoint we are all just humans, death is inevitable, and from since the time we are born, we are practically on our road to death. Every second you live your life we are getting closer to death so one could propose that we are perpetually "dying" until death actually claims us.

Happiness is a human concept, just like sadness, pleasure, pain - it's all just labels to certain emotions we feel. We determine what they are from experience. It's a really a harsh way to look at things, but if you truly think about it, what don't we label as emotions? Sure something pleasureful causes our brain to release endorphins, but ultimately it's up to us to decide good and bad. And good wouldn't exist without bad, would it?

If we delve deeper, your really getting at morality and what one believes to be morally "right" or morally "wrong". If you look past all of that, nothing really is good or bad from the get-co.
"So, I started reading this book called the Bible. It's pretty good so far."
"Jesus dies at the end."
"GODDAMNIT."

winkio

Quote from: red.yoshi on October 14, 2010, 03:09:14 pm
Quote from: winkio on October 14, 2010, 11:27:40 am
what if, instead of stealing someone's possessions, you steal their family, their happiness, or their life.


Well, not to debase us if you have religious beliefs or anything of that matter, but if you look at it from an evolutionary standpoint we are all just humans, death is inevitable, and from since the time we are born, we are practically on our road to death. Every second you live your life we are getting closer to death so one could propose that we are perpetually "dying" until death actually claims us.

Happiness is a human concept, just like sadness, pleasure, pain - it's all just labels to certain emotions we feel. We determine what they are from experience. It's a really a harsh way to look at things, but if you truly think about it, what don't we label as emotions? Sure something pleasureful causes our brain to release endorphins, but ultimately it's up to us to decide good and bad. And good wouldn't exist without bad, would it?

If we delve deeper, your really getting at morality and what one believes to be morally "right" or morally "wrong". If you look past all of that, nothing really is good or bad from the get-co.


Death is inevitable, but if someone kills you, they steal years of life that would have been yours.  In that sense, it is a loss of life.  Otherwise, we would all just jump off of skyscrapers, because life is tough.

Emotions transcend humanity.  That is why animal abuse is a criminal act.

Yes, morality is what I'm getting into (and what this topic is getting into).  But your oversimplified view that everything doesn't matter is just stupid.  You don't even believe it yourself.



Anyways, back on topic.  I think the damage of theft depends upon what is stolen.  And thus, the more valuable a thing that is stolen, the more extreme of a response is warranted.

red.yoshi

Quote from: winkio on October 14, 2010, 03:39:30 pm
Quote from: red.yoshi on October 14, 2010, 03:09:14 pm
Quote from: winkio on October 14, 2010, 11:27:40 am
what if, instead of stealing someone's possessions, you steal their family, their happiness, or their life.


Well, not to debase us if you have religious beliefs or anything of that matter, but if you look at it from an evolutionary standpoint we are all just humans, death is inevitable, and from since the time we are born, we are practically on our road to death. Every second you live your life we are getting closer to death so one could propose that we are perpetually "dying" until death actually claims us.

Happiness is a human concept, just like sadness, pleasure, pain - it's all just labels to certain emotions we feel. We determine what they are from experience. It's a really a harsh way to look at things, but if you truly think about it, what don't we label as emotions? Sure something pleasureful causes our brain to release endorphins, but ultimately it's up to us to decide good and bad. And good wouldn't exist without bad, would it?

If we delve deeper, your really getting at morality and what one believes to be morally "right" or morally "wrong". If you look past all of that, nothing really is good or bad from the get-co.


Death is inevitable, but if someone kills you, they steal years of life that would have been yours.  In that sense, it is a loss of life.  Otherwise, we would all just jump off of skyscrapers, because life is tough.

Emotions transcend humanity.  That is why animal abuse is a criminal act.

Yes, morality is what I'm getting into (and what this topic is getting into).  But your oversimplified view that everything doesn't matter is just stupid.  You don't even believe it yourself.



Anyways, back on topic.  I think the damage of theft depends upon what is stolen.  And thus, the more valuable a thing that is stolen, the more extreme of a response is warranted.


Biologically, we as humans have two purposes in life - to survive and to procreate. This may be why one isn't particularly taken to acts of suicide (as your example, jumping off a skyscraper.) Our first and foremost human instinct in life is to seek survival. Without the comfort of a shelter, food, warmth, etc. we as humans will do anything to fulfill these essential needs of life. I dare propose that without these needs, human emotions cease to exist, as we may fight - or even kill for a means to save our own life. I mean, isn't this what we're doing in our world today?

If your logic is that killing equals stealing, then what about all of the people killed in war? What about all of the people who go hungry and starve? What about all of the cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys, or whatever have you, that are slaughtered everyday as means for nourishment? They aren't much different from us humans. If you group these critters as animals, you might as well group us "humans" in the same category. Our genetic pool doesn't vary much, and actually, we're all carbon based life forms. What is the difference between animal cruelty and slaughtering cows in a slaughter house other than your perceived notion of it?

Society also plays a big role in the scheme of things. It's socially unacceptable to walk around naked in public, to harm animals, to scream obscenities, and it's socially acceptable to feel embarrassment, shame, etc. for doing such things.

Us humans have such huge egotistical issues that it sickens me.

Your making your question completely one sided and argumentative. What I don't understand is why you propose an opinionated question, and then debate over people's opinions, arguing that you and only your view is the right view..

"So, I started reading this book called the Bible. It's pretty good so far."
"Jesus dies at the end."
"GODDAMNIT."

winkio

Oh, I see, you misunderstand my question.  Let me put it like this:

Thief A steals your material possessions (money).
Thief B steals your intellectual possessions (ideas, patents, art, and other stuff).
Thief C steals your emotional possessions (pride, peace of mind, self worth, etc.).

What are the differences between the thieves?  Against which one is retaliation most/least justified?  What if a thief steals from all three categories?

Also, side note to red.yoshi: the opinionated side-conversation was initiated by you.  You seem to value one-on-one arguments over open forums for discussion, so I would advise that you take that to a separate thread.

red.yoshi

I apologize for giving my two cents on your question at hand. However, next time, when positing a biased question, please just specify whether or not you'd only like to receive answers agreeing with what you have to say, or open minded responses, because I was a bit confused.  :^_^':

I very much hate to argue, but close minded egotistical people get on my nerves as well. I apologize if I offended you in any way. Have a nice day.
"So, I started reading this book called the Bible. It's pretty good so far."
"Jesus dies at the end."
"GODDAMNIT."

ForeverZer0

36inc's twin?  :O.o:

I'm with winkio on this one. I don't believe that anyone truly believes in the we-are-all-nothing, humans-are-only-a-collection-of-cells, nothing-really-matters, what-is-the-point bullshit.

The very fact that they felt the need to tell you this in an attempt at sounding somehow philisophical or enlightened only proves the contridiction in thier thought process.

If you believed this, then why go through the daily motions of life. Why go to school, go to work, get married, have kids. It wouldn't matter would it? To make yourself happy? According to your supposed way of thought, happiness isn't real, so why pursue it?
I am done scripting for RMXP. I will likely not offer support for even my own scripts anymore, but feel free to ask on the forum, there are plenty of other talented scripters that can help you.

Blizzard

You could hammer it down to a few specific things and that's it. Happiness is merely the response of our minds to reward us for increasing our chances of survival and reproduction. But it's fine. I don't see a problem with this. Regardless of the reason, I'm still happy and feel good. And that's the only thing that matters.
If you look at this even more down-to-earth, the average human changes its complete material about every 7 years. Just because that "shell" has changed, doesn't mean that you're a different person.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

red.yoshi

Quote from: Blizzard on October 15, 2010, 12:49:20 pm
You could hammer it down to a few specific things and that's it. Happiness is merely the response of our minds to reward us for increasing our chances of survival and reproduction. But it's fine. I don't see a problem with this. Regardless of the reason, I'm still happy and feel good. And that's the only thing that matters.
If you look at this even more down-to-earth, the average human changes its complete material about every 7 years. Just because that "shell" has changed, doesn't mean that you're a different person.


Amen. I couldn't have said it better myself.
"So, I started reading this book called the Bible. It's pretty good so far."
"Jesus dies at the end."
"GODDAMNIT."

winkio

Am I the only one that is confused about how the link between emotions and survival relates at all to thieves?

Blizzard

Why are you confused? Which part confuses you?

Emotions are built-in and hardwired responses to certain stimuli. A few emotions can be triggered by learned stimuli (e.g. fears and phobias are in this group). Thieves could get an emotional kick out of stealing or their survival emotions could push them in that way until it becomes normal for them to steal. There are many ways in which they can be connected.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

winkio

Okay.  Well on that note, I'd like to bring in the quirks of observation.  Because as humans, our observations are subjected to our own biases, as many people can observe the same situation and make different observation statements.  Thus thieves may observe their behavior as just and necessary for their own well being, while the victims may observe the same behavior as malicious.

Blizzard

Yes, exactly. If your family is hungry and you have no money, stealing doesn't seem like such a bad thing in order to provide your family with food.
Check out Daygames and our games:

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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Holyrapid

Wow, this has gotten more popular than i thought...

I also think that good and evil are just matters of perspective... I think that it's morally somewhat okay to steal food to your family who is starving, but stealing food if you're hungry even if you could buy it, and even if you couldn't if you can food the legal way, it's a criminal act.

Same goes for pretty much everything else...

I think that if it's justified (generally... i.e most of people wouldn't sentence you to prison for it?) it's acceptable, but if there is no justification, it should be treated as the crime it is.
So, say you kill a dog. Now there's two way to look at it. A). It was to protect you and/or someone else. B). It was just animal cruelty.
But, is it justified if it was just cruelty, but the dog had rabies or posed a threat in some other way?

Blizzard

As winkio already said, it's subjective. Just because it's actually against the law, it doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do. Against the law only means wrong in the eyes of society.

I personally consider something to be bad if you do more bad than good. If you steal from a rich guy so you can eat that day, even though it's selfish, I consider this to be a quite small act of evil. You did it to survive. If you steal for somebody else to survive, the selfish aspect is gone and that makes the deed a lot better. They are all against society's rules, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong. The lesser of two evils is also not the wrong thing to do. If you have the chance to kill a man and hence save 10 or let all 10 die, what would be the right choice? I don't know. It depends who the one man is and who the rest of the people are and what context it is about. Things in life aren't black or white, but you need to learn to recognize which draws more towards black and which draws more towards white.
Check out Daygames and our games:

King of Booze 2      King of Booze: Never Ever
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

The Niche

Quote from: DesPKP on October 15, 2010, 03:26:41 pm
Wow, this has gotten more popular than i thought...

I also think that good and evil are just matters of perspective... I think that it's morally somewhat okay to steal food to your family who is starving, but stealing food if you're hungry even if you could buy it, and even if you couldn't if you can food the legal way, it's a criminal act.

Same goes for pretty much everything else...

I think that if it's justified (generally... i.e most of people wouldn't sentence you to prison for it?) it's acceptable, but if there is no justification, it should be treated as the crime it is.
So, say you kill a dog. Now there's two way to look at it. A). It was to protect you and/or someone else. B). It was just animal cruelty.
But, is it justified if it was just cruelty, but the dog had rabies or posed a threat in some other way?


It is not, though the accused will use this in their defence.
Level me down, I'm trying to become the anti-blizz!
Quote from: winkio on June 15, 2011, 07:30:23 pm
Ah, excellent.  You liked my amusing sideshow, yes?  I'm just a simple fool, my wit entertains the wise, and my wisdom fools the fools.



I'm like the bible, widely hated and beautifully quotable.

Dropbox is this way, not any other way!

WhiteRose

Quote from: Blizzard on October 15, 2010, 03:37:46 pm
As winkio already said, it's subjective. Just because it's actually against the law, it doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do. Against the law only means wrong in the eyes of society.

I personally consider something to be bad if you do more bad than good. If you steal from a rich guy so you can eat that day, even though it's selfish, I consider this to be a quite small act of evil. You did it to survive. If you steal for somebody else to survive, the selfish aspect is gone and that makes the deed a lot better. They are all against society's rules, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong. The lesser of two evils is also not the wrong thing to do. If you have the chance to kill a man and hence save 10 or let all 10 die, what would be the right choice? I don't know. It depends who the one man is and who the rest of the people are and what context it is about. Things in life aren't black or white, but you need to learn to recognize which draws more towards black and which draws more towards white.


Well said.

Diokatsu

Quote from: WhiteRose on October 15, 2010, 05:05:20 pm
Quote from: Blizzard on October 15, 2010, 03:37:46 pm
As winkio already said, it's subjective. Just because it's actually against the law, it doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do. Against the law only means wrong in the eyes of society.

I personally consider something to be bad if you do more bad than good. If you steal from a rich guy so you can eat that day, even though it's selfish, I consider this to be a quite small act of evil. You did it to survive. If you steal for somebody else to survive, the selfish aspect is gone and that makes the deed a lot better. They are all against society's rules, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong. The lesser of two evils is also not the wrong thing to do. If you have the chance to kill a man and hence save 10 or let all 10 die, what would be the right choice? I don't know. It depends who the one man is and who the rest of the people are and what context it is about. Things in life aren't black or white, but you need to learn to recognize which draws more towards black and which draws more towards white.


Well said.


The problem people seem to have with relativism though is that people generally have different ideas on what is right and what is wrong and what level of moral responsibility each action entails. Since I don't believe in any sort of afterlife, to me it's not about any moral reason, but more or less how it will affect relationships with other people. I think even if you boil down life to purely self preservation, you can come up with ideas on "good" and "evil". Even Ayn Rand had some standards.

But that still leaves a lot of room to think. I mean, though I don't believe in moral ramifications, I think that some actions are detestable just by their very nature. I can't use logic to justify why I think the act of people copying essays off of other people is wrong, but something about it makes me angry. We could say that cheating results in less intelligence in the long run, but I don't believe that's entirely true for all people and even if it did, it honestly doesn't affect me that Todd stole Gavin's paper. But I still think the act is abhorrent and should be avoided.

I'm not trying to confront anyone, I'm just offering my observations on just how difficult it can be to act and think subjectively and still maintain acceptable societal standards.

Blizzard

I agree on that. Society is more like an average of everybody's subjective point view.
Though, I believe that it is possible to avoid problems by simply being ethical. If you know something is going to hurt somebody else or somebody else will lose something, you should reconsider doing that act.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Diokatsu

October 15, 2010, 05:58:06 pm #37 Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 06:06:59 pm by Diokatsu
Quote from: Blizzard on October 15, 2010, 05:51:02 pm
I agree on that. Society is more like an average of everybody's subjective point view.
Though, I believe that it is possible to avoid problems by simply being ethical. If you know something is going to hurt somebody else or somebody else will lose something, you should reconsider doing that act.


I agree, and if you start thinking about it, as long as you want to maintain a good social standing and help yourself in the long run, being nice is good for you. It's something you don't need to be a hard-ass religious nut to believe in. Anyone can figure that being accepting, nice, fun, friendly and overall caring is generally a good thing.

Fixed <3 Blizzard

Blizzard

Exactly. Society today is different that it was 50000 years ago. Back then the only way to go up was to push down somebody else. Today you can push others around you actually up and they will push you up even further. Everybody wins, lol!

Quote from: Diokatsu on October 15, 2010, 05:58:06 pm
It's something you don't need to be a hard-ass religious nut to believe in.


Fixed.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

red.yoshi

From this way this thread has progressed, I think it would be appropriate to share a poem with you guys written by Walt Whitman. It's actually an excerpt from his work "Song of Myself," and it basically sums up what I see us humans as once you take away society and religion.

I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd,
I stand and look at them long and long.

They do not sweat and wine about their condition,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,
Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things,
Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago,
Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth.
"So, I started reading this book called the Bible. It's pretty good so far."
"Jesus dies at the end."
"GODDAMNIT."

Vell

Quote from: red.yoshi on October 15, 2010, 10:46:56 pm
I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd,
I stand and look at them long and long.

They do not sweat and wine about their condition,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,
Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things,
Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago,
Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth.




No, seriously.

Seriously.

Do you believe that? Oh my god.

ahahaha.

But ontopic now.
Quote from: Blizzard on October 15, 2010, 01:36:14 pm
A few emotions can be triggered by learned stimuli (e.g. fears and phobias are in this group).


This is true, though sometimes phobias exist without any logical explanation for them. And the definition of a phobia is an irrational or excessive fear - they're never logical. Usually, though, you can see how they came to fear it. A scary spider incident when they're young. That disturbing facepaint clowns wear.

But still, there's very little reason to fear a hippopotamus opening your door or something.

Blizzard

Erm... That's what I said. An emotion such as fear can be triggered with a learned stimuli. This doesn't go only for humans, it goes for animals as well. If a particular animal had lots of bad experiences with humans, it will experience great anxiety and fear when it comes into contact with humans. A learned stimuli has nothing to do with logic.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Diokatsu

Quote from: UltaFlame on October 23, 2010, 12:26:12 pm
Quote from: red.yoshi on October 15, 2010, 10:46:56 pm
I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd,
I stand and look at them long and long.

They do not sweat and wine about their condition,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,
Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things,
Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago,
Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth.




No, seriously.

Seriously.

Do you believe that? Oh my god.

ahahaha.

But ontopic now.
Quote from: Blizzard on October 15, 2010, 01:36:14 pm
A few emotions can be triggered by learned stimuli (e.g. fears and phobias are in this group).


This is true, though sometimes phobias exist without any logical explanation for them. And the definition of a phobia is an irrational or excessive fear - they're never logical. Usually, though, you can see how they came to fear it. A scary spider incident when they're young. That disturbing facepaint clowns wear.

But still, there's very little reason to fear a hippopotamus opening your door or something.


A phobia isn't irrational to one who believes in it though. A phobia is only illogical to someone who can observe it from the outside. Logic doesn't stand up in the face of subconscious fear. So even if a phobia is irrational by definition, dissuading the brain to dissociate the emotion from the stimuli is nearly impossible without circumstances that profess to a higher reality and without explaining those circumstances to the carrier of the phobia.

Vell

Now, now, I think we're miscommunicating here.

What I meant, Blizz, was that you're right - some, probably most phobias are caused by an observable phenomenon. However, some of them are not. Acrophobia makes sense - falling down CAN and WILL kill you, from heights. Arachnophobia, that too. Some spiders are poisonous enough to kill you in minutes.

But there is documented cases where people refuse to leave their house because they're afraid of a hippopotamus opening their door or stuff equally ridiculous. Of course, I'm not scoffing at it. I admit I have little knowledge in the field of psychology, and forgive me for that, I am trying to practice what I do know so far because I plan to make a career of it. Sometimes you can be aware that it's illogical, and or excessive, and still be unable to do anything about it.

It's just how it works.

Like OCD.

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is often misunderstood. It's not 'everything must be neat and tidy.' You first get an obsession - your hands are dirty. Your hands MUST be dirty, the last time you washed them was several minutes ago and you were just sitting down watching TV. Your hands are freaking DIRTY. And then you get a compulsion. Your hands are dirty, you must clean them. If you clean your hands they will not be dirty any more. Clean your hands! and then you clean your hands. And then later on the process repeats.

basically, I just hijacked this thread to exercise knowledge so I can remember it.

If I'm being uncivil or ignoring your points I'm sorry.

red.yoshi

Quote from: UltaFlame on October 23, 2010, 12:26:12 pm
Quote from: red.yoshi on October 15, 2010, 10:46:56 pm
I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd,
I stand and look at them long and long.

They do not sweat and wine about their condition,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,
Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things,
Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago,
Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth.




No, seriously.

Seriously.

Do you believe that? Oh my god.

ahahaha.

But ontopic now.
Quote from: Blizzard on October 15, 2010, 01:36:14 pm
A few emotions can be triggered by learned stimuli (e.g. fears and phobias are in this group).


This is true, though sometimes phobias exist without any logical explanation for them. And the definition of a phobia is an irrational or excessive fear - they're never logical. Usually, though, you can see how they came to fear it. A scary spider incident when they're young. That disturbing facepaint clowns wear.

But still, there's very little reason to fear a hippopotamus opening your door or something.


Err...Actually I just found it very beautiful and metaphoric and relevant to this topic's interests. '~'

Quote from: UltaFlame on October 23, 2010, 07:04:28 pm
Now, now, I think we're miscommunicating here.

What I meant, Blizz, was that you're right - some, probably most phobias are caused by an observable phenomenon. However, some of them are not. Acrophobia makes sense - falling down CAN and WILL kill you, from heights. Arachnophobia, that too. Some spiders are poisonous enough to kill you in minutes.

But there is documented cases where people refuse to leave their house because they're afraid of a hippopotamus opening their door or stuff equally ridiculous. Of course, I'm not scoffing at it. I admit I have little knowledge in the field of psychology, and forgive me for that, I am trying to practice what I do know so far because I plan to make a career of it. Sometimes you can be aware that it's illogical, and or excessive, and still be unable to do anything about it.

It's just how it works.

Like OCD.

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is often misunderstood. It's not 'everything must be neat and tidy.' You first get an obsession - your hands are dirty. Your hands MUST be dirty, the last time you washed them was several minutes ago and you were just sitting down watching TV. Your hands are freaking DIRTY. And then you get a compulsion. Your hands are dirty, you must clean them. If you clean your hands they will not be dirty any more. Clean your hands! and then you clean your hands. And then later on the process repeats.

basically, I just hijacked this thread to exercise knowledge so I can remember it.

If I'm being uncivil or ignoring your points I'm sorry.


Hijack cat makes no sense. OCD is a disorder, a mental condition, not a phobia.
"So, I started reading this book called the Bible. It's pretty good so far."
"Jesus dies at the end."
"GODDAMNIT."

winkio

Ulta is right, panic attacks and other associated mental disorders create an unwarranted and impending sense of fear.

red.yoshi

I'd have to disagree. The fear has to be conditioned, "learned," in the first place, whether experienced first hand or by witnessing it in others. Organisms which learned to fear environmental threats faster had a survival and reproductive advantage.

And, as for OCD conditioning...
"So, I started reading this book called the Bible. It's pretty good so far."
"Jesus dies at the end."
"GODDAMNIT."

The Niche

Quote from: UltaFlame on October 23, 2010, 12:26:12 pm





She has nice tits. [/offtopic]

@Red: You're right, according to nature, we have no real purpose other than to make sure our species survives. It's ironic that nature, which is presented as this all loving and benign force, doesn't really give a shit about individuals. Which is why I believe it impossible for there to be no divine being.
Level me down, I'm trying to become the anti-blizz!
Quote from: winkio on June 15, 2011, 07:30:23 pm
Ah, excellent.  You liked my amusing sideshow, yes?  I'm just a simple fool, my wit entertains the wise, and my wisdom fools the fools.



I'm like the bible, widely hated and beautifully quotable.

Dropbox is this way, not any other way!

red.yoshi

Quote from: The Niche on October 26, 2010, 04:14:23 pm
Quote from: UltaFlame on October 23, 2010, 12:26:12 pm





She has nice tits. [/offtopic]

@Red: You're right, according to nature, we have no real purpose other than to make sure our species survives. It's ironic that nature, which is presented as this all loving and benign force, doesn't really give a shit about individuals. Which is why I believe it impossible for there to be no divine being.


I wouldn't say that I'm atheistic. :P That's also a bit off topic though.
"So, I started reading this book called the Bible. It's pretty good so far."
"Jesus dies at the end."
"GODDAMNIT."

Blizzard

I kind of have a similar view. Our sole purpose is to survive and reproduce. But that is actually the thing that makes life worth living. And I still believe in a god.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Diokatsu

Quote from: Blizzard on October 27, 2010, 02:19:46 am
I kind of have a similar view. Our sole purpose is to survive and reproduce. But that is actually the thing that makes life worth living. And I still believe in a god.


But if that's the only purpose of humanity, then what of those who make a choice to not have children?

If we're talking about purpose, I'll say that I don't think humanity has a purpose other than to excel. Every human being should contribute to humanity's advancement, whether is be with labor or intelligence, science or the arts or perhaps a combination of all. I don't believe in a god.

Holyrapid

Well, i am an atheist (ATHEIST not satanist, us atheists don't believe in god(s) for various reasons. My self, i don't believe since i haven't been presented with actual evidence that would support that there is a god or even multiple ones. I admit, always doesn't make sense either. But it has more logic than religions... imo), but that's besides the point.
I see no other reason for human life that to survive and reproduce. Same however goes for all animals, plants, everything that lives.

And as for OCD, they can sometimes be some sort of phobias, or caused by one, but mainly they are just illogical obsessions, that don't make up much if any sense, at lest to everyone else, except the person suffering from the OCD, if even to them. I myself have a phobia, and a small OCD.

I fear bees, and i think this has stuck to me from my early childhood, since i accidentally stepped on one. And as for my nail biting, i have no clear explanation for it. It's not because of stress or anything like that. It's just a bad habit, that may be left from my childhood as well. As a kid, i got into lots of fights, and sometimes i would get comment on my longish nails... so i bit them off... and i know it doesn't sound reasonable, because it isn't.

And i forgot what i was about to say if anything...

Blizzard

@Dio: Yeah, I agree with that. Humanity as a whole probably has a purpose as well.
I think that people who make a choice not to have children just use it as excuse to get away from responsibility. But that's just my opinion. Also, I'm generalizing here, it doesn't have to apply to every single person but only the majority.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

red.yoshi

October 27, 2010, 08:47:29 am #53 Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 08:51:23 am by red.yoshi
Quote from: DesPKP on October 27, 2010, 07:18:44 am
Well, i am an atheist (ATHEIST not satanist, us atheists don't believe in god(s) for various reasons. My self, i don't believe since i haven't been presented with actual evidence that would support that there is a god or even multiple ones. I admit, always doesn't make sense either. But it has more logic than religions... imo), but that's besides the point.
I see no other reason for human life that to survive and reproduce. Same however goes for all animals, plants, everything that lives.

And as for OCD, they can sometimes be some sort of phobias, or caused by one, but mainly they are just illogical obsessions, that don't make up much if any sense, at lest to everyone else, except the person suffering from the OCD, if even to them. I myself have a phobia, and a small OCD.

I fear bees, and i think this has stuck to me from my early childhood, since i accidentally stepped on one. And as for my nail biting, i have no clear explanation for it. It's not because of stress or anything like that. It's just a bad habit, that may be left from my childhood as well. As a kid, i got into lots of fights, and sometimes i would get comment on my longish nails... so i bit them off... and i know it doesn't sound reasonable, because it isn't.

And i forgot what i was about to say if anything...


You're getting at what I was getting at- ocd mannerisms and phobias aren't spontaneous or "unwarrented." They do have some sort of origin in one way or another.

And I would have to agree with Bliz. Married couples who would rather not have children either because they like the quiet, or they're too busy, or something. Whatever the reason, in most if not all cases, it ultimately boils down to not wanting to take the responsibility or lack there of. Whether or not the couple abstains from sex is a different story. '~'
"So, I started reading this book called the Bible. It's pretty good so far."
"Jesus dies at the end."
"GODDAMNIT."

winkio

Quote from: Blizzard on October 27, 2010, 07:45:08 am
@Dio: Yeah, I agree with that. Humanity as a whole probably has a purpose as well.
I think that people who make a choice not to have children just use it as excuse to get away from responsibility. But that's just my opinion. Also, I'm generalizing here, it doesn't have to apply to every single person but only the majority.


Does that apply to the majority?  I think not.  I've found the economic way of looking at this more satisfying: people that would not gain any net benefit from having children do not have any children.  People that do gain benefit do have children.

Blizzard

I think that you are overlooking important factors if you look at it from a strict economic point of view. There are lots of people that could afford having children, yet they choose not to. In fact, most couples that have successful careers tend to have a lot less children than couples that are less successful or couples where only one partner has a (not-so-successful) career. Basically I think that human psychology plays a major part in the decision whether to have children or not. And I think that the psychological reasons are most influent.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

winkio

I think you don't understand economics.  Benefit and cost aren't just in money.  They can be in happiness, satisfaction, pride, experience, etc.  For example, why do people use RMXP for non-commercial projects?  Because they get benefit from working with it.

Blizzard

October 27, 2010, 12:08:59 pm #57 Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 12:11:46 pm by Blizzard
I think I understand pretty well what Economics is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics It seems to me that you are generalizing Economics now to be pretty much everything which is not true.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

winkio

I don't need to read the Wikipedia page on economics, I've read and used several textbooks.  Although if you want to look at some relevant Wikipedia articles, follow the link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory Economics, well at least microeconomics, which is what applies to this situation, is the study of human choice in markets.  This does, as you stated, apply to pretty much everything, in terms of situations in the human record.  I'm not going to regurgitate everything I know, but let me just show one example:

You are at a bar and want to buy drinks.  You drink 5 drinks before leaving.  Why?  Each drink costs the same amount.  You get a lot of benefit from the first few, but less and less benefit as you keep drinking, and eventually, you get no more benefit, because if you drank anymore (the 6th drink), you would not feel well enough to warrant paying for it, so you stop.

Now imagine instead of paying for drinks, you had to do magic tricks for them.  It takes time and money to prepare each trick, and you have to do a new trick for each drink.  Some people will value their time too highly to prepare tricks, and thus will not drink any.  Others will prepare 4 tricks for 4 drinks, after which the 5 drink is not worth the time and money spent preparing the 5th trick, because they don't benefit enough to warrant the cost.

Bringing it back on topic, having children has many costs: emotional pain, childbirth pain, costs to support them as they grow up, strain on relationships and work, etc.  Children also provide benefit: they allow you to live vicariously into the future, provide love and excitement, etc.  These costs and benefits vary on an individual basis, and thus some will have children because the benefits outweigh the costs, and some will not, because the costs outweigh the benefits.

red.yoshi

October 27, 2010, 03:21:31 pm #59 Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 06:19:34 pm by red.yoshi
Not to set up a brick wall, but economics is completely society influenced. So is much of the decision to have children or to not have children.

That being said, we can conclude that society probably has the most influence on whether or not a couple has children. Although unrealistic, I'd propose that without these influences that all able humans would reproduce and have children.

I'd further like to say that anyone who brings modern day social influences to the table, with any technology what-so-ever, adds more variables to the picture. Scratch what I said earlier about couples being abstinent for lack of responsibility. If one feels that s/he will lose money for any reason or cause, s/he will prevent losing money at all costs. Why? Money = security, security = safety.

This draws back to what I said much earlier on in this topic. Basically, humans will do anything to survive, the first and foremost drive we have in life. All mentally stable humans will go any amount of distance to secure their lives, even if it endangers the lives of others. It's simply human nature.

After these means of survival have been established, then procreation enters the picture. I'd argue that any able couple who doesn't choose to procreate feels that by having children their means of survival are endangered.
"So, I started reading this book called the Bible. It's pretty good so far."
"Jesus dies at the end."
"GODDAMNIT."

Blizzard

@winkio: LMAO! This totally sounds like my economics class back in college. ^_^ While I agree that economics definitely by definition cover all that, I don't think that you can really view everything as economics, because it's complete generalization. In the end it doesn't actually matter who's right here with economics, we are obviously thinking the same about general investment and payoff about having children. But you are right that it's influenced a lot more by society than I said in the first place.

I agree that having children is influenced a lot by society today. Even though psychology plays a role in this, psychology is also influenced by society. Most of it pretty much comes back to raw genetic programming and social programming where the latter can be altered by society. Since humans are self-aware and social animals, the social programming has probably a lot more influence in the end decision. Very interesting.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Nightowl Atticus

The first post reminds me of current situation I am in, my brother keeps stealing my property and SELLS IT. Without even asking for a permission. He doesn't even give the money for me since it's my property. His latest attempt was to try to sell my lapland knife, which I had kept in my bed. After I didn't find it from my bed, I started suspecting my brother and when he was gone, I went through his desk and found the knife. Sneaky little bitch.
95% of teens would cry if they saw the Jonas Brothers @ the top of a skyscraper about to jump.
Copy and paste this if you are the 5% that would shout "Jump assholes!"