Few things to ponder

[Vell]

I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd,
I stand and look at them long and long.

They do not sweat and wine about their condition,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,
Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things,
Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago,
Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth.

No, seriously.

Seriously.

Do you believe that? Oh my god.

ahahaha.

But ontopic now.

A few emotions can be triggered by learned stimuli (e.g. fears and phobias are in this group).

This is true, though sometimes phobias exist without any logical explanation for them. And the definition of a phobia is an irrational or excessive fear - they're never logical. Usually, though, you can see how they came to fear it. A scary spider incident when they're young. That disturbing facepaint clowns wear.

But still, there's very little reason to fear a hippopotamus opening your door or something.

[Blizzard]

Erm... That's what I said. An emotion such as fear can be triggered with a learned stimuli. This doesn't go only for humans, it goes for animals as well. If a particular animal had lots of bad experiences with humans, it will experience great anxiety and fear when it comes into contact with humans. A learned stimuli has nothing to do with logic.

[Diokatsu]

I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd,
I stand and look at them long and long.

They do not sweat and wine about their condition,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,
Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things,
Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago,
Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth.

No, seriously.

Seriously.

Do you believe that? Oh my god.

ahahaha.

But ontopic now.

A few emotions can be triggered by learned stimuli (e.g. fears and phobias are in this group).

This is true, though sometimes phobias exist without any logical explanation for them. And the definition of a phobia is an irrational or excessive fear - they're never logical. Usually, though, you can see how they came to fear it. A scary spider incident when they're young. That disturbing facepaint clowns wear.

But still, there's very little reason to fear a hippopotamus opening your door or something.

A phobia isn't irrational to one who believes in it though. A phobia is only illogical to someone who can observe it from the outside. Logic doesn't stand up in the face of subconscious fear. So even if a phobia is irrational by definition, dissuading the brain to dissociate the emotion from the stimuli is nearly impossible without circumstances that profess to a higher reality and without explaining those circumstances to the carrier of the phobia.

[Vell]

Now, now, I think we're miscommunicating here.

What I meant, Blizz, was that you're right - some, probably most phobias are caused by an observable phenomenon. However, some of them are not. Acrophobia makes sense - falling down CAN and WILL kill you, from heights. Arachnophobia, that too. Some spiders are poisonous enough to kill you in minutes.

But there is documented cases where people refuse to leave their house because they're afraid of a hippopotamus opening their door or stuff equally ridiculous. Of course, I'm not scoffing at it. I admit I have little knowledge in the field of psychology, and forgive me for that, I am trying to practice what I do know so far because I plan to make a career of it. Sometimes you can be aware that it's illogical, and or excessive, and still be unable to do anything about it.

It's just how it works.

Like OCD.

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is often misunderstood. It's not 'everything must be neat and tidy.' You first get an obsession - your hands are dirty. Your hands MUST be dirty, the last time you washed them was several minutes ago and you were just sitting down watching TV. Your hands are freaking DIRTY. And then you get a compulsion. Your hands are dirty, you must clean them. If you clean your hands they will not be dirty any more. Clean your hands! and then you clean your hands. And then later on the process repeats.

basically, I just hijacked this thread to exercise knowledge so I can remember it.

If I'm being uncivil or ignoring your points I'm sorry.

[red.yoshi]

I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd,
I stand and look at them long and long.

They do not sweat and wine about their condition,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,
Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things,
Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago,
Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth.

No, seriously.

Seriously.

Do you believe that? Oh my god.

ahahaha.

But ontopic now.

A few emotions can be triggered by learned stimuli (e.g. fears and phobias are in this group).

This is true, though sometimes phobias exist without any logical explanation for them. And the definition of a phobia is an irrational or excessive fear - they're never logical. Usually, though, you can see how they came to fear it. A scary spider incident when they're young. That disturbing facepaint clowns wear.

But still, there's very little reason to fear a hippopotamus opening your door or something.

Err...Actually I just found it very beautiful and metaphoric and relevant to this topic's interests. '~'

Now, now, I think we're miscommunicating here.

What I meant, Blizz, was that you're right - some, probably most phobias are caused by an observable phenomenon. However, some of them are not. Acrophobia makes sense - falling down CAN and WILL kill you, from heights. Arachnophobia, that too. Some spiders are poisonous enough to kill you in minutes.

But there is documented cases where people refuse to leave their house because they're afraid of a hippopotamus opening their door or stuff equally ridiculous. Of course, I'm not scoffing at it. I admit I have little knowledge in the field of psychology, and forgive me for that, I am trying to practice what I do know so far because I plan to make a career of it. Sometimes you can be aware that it's illogical, and or excessive, and still be unable to do anything about it.

It's just how it works.

Like OCD.

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is often misunderstood. It's not 'everything must be neat and tidy.' You first get an obsession - your hands are dirty. Your hands MUST be dirty, the last time you washed them was several minutes ago and you were just sitting down watching TV. Your hands are freaking DIRTY. And then you get a compulsion. Your hands are dirty, you must clean them. If you clean your hands they will not be dirty any more. Clean your hands! and then you clean your hands. And then later on the process repeats.

basically, I just hijacked this thread to exercise knowledge so I can remember it.

If I'm being uncivil or ignoring your points I'm sorry.

Hijack cat makes no sense. OCD is a disorder, a mental condition, not a phobia.

[winkio]

Ulta is right, panic attacks and other associated mental disorders create an unwarranted and impending sense of fear.

[red.yoshi]

I'd have to disagree. The fear has to be conditioned, "learned," in the first place, whether experienced first hand or by witnessing it in others. Organisms which learned to fear environmental threats faster had a survival and reproductive advantage.

And, as for OCD conditioning...

[The Niche]

She has nice tits. [/offtopic]

@Red: You're right, according to nature, we have no real purpose other than to make sure our species survives. It's ironic that nature, which is presented as this all loving and benign force, doesn't really give a shit about individuals. Which is why I believe it impossible for there to be no divine being.

[red.yoshi]

She has nice tits. [/offtopic]

@Red: You're right, according to nature, we have no real purpose other than to make sure our species survives. It's ironic that nature, which is presented as this all loving and benign force, doesn't really give a shit about individuals. Which is why I believe it impossible for there to be no divine being.

I wouldn't say that I'm atheistic. That's also a bit off topic though.

[Blizzard]

I kind of have a similar view. Our sole purpose is to survive and reproduce. But that is actually the thing that makes life worth living. And I still believe in a god.

[Diokatsu]

I kind of have a similar view. Our sole purpose is to survive and reproduce. But that is actually the thing that makes life worth living. And I still believe in a god.

But if that's the only purpose of humanity, then what of those who make a choice to not have children?

If we're talking about purpose, I'll say that I don't think humanity has a purpose other than to excel. Every human being should contribute to humanity's advancement, whether is be with labor or intelligence, science or the arts or perhaps a combination of all. I don't believe in a god.

[Holyrapid]

Well, i am an atheist (ATHEIST not satanist, us atheists don't believe in god(s) for various reasons. My self, i don't believe since i haven't been presented with actual evidence that would support that there is a god or even multiple ones. I admit, always doesn't make sense either. But it has more logic than religions... imo), but that's besides the point.
I see no other reason for human life that to survive and reproduce. Same however goes for all animals, plants, everything that lives.

And as for OCD, they can sometimes be some sort of phobias, or caused by one, but mainly they are just illogical obsessions, that don't make up much if any sense, at lest to everyone else, except the person suffering from the OCD, if even to them. I myself have a phobia, and a small OCD.

I fear bees, and i think this has stuck to me from my early childhood, since i accidentally stepped on one. And as for my nail biting, i have no clear explanation for it. It's not because of stress or anything like that. It's just a bad habit, that may be left from my childhood as well. As a kid, i got into lots of fights, and sometimes i would get comment on my longish nails... so i bit them off... and i know it doesn't sound reasonable, because it isn't.

And i forgot what i was about to say if anything...

[Blizzard]

@Dio: Yeah, I agree with that. Humanity as a whole probably has a purpose as well.
I think that people who make a choice not to have children just use it as excuse to get away from responsibility. But that's just my opinion. Also, I'm generalizing here, it doesn't have to apply to every single person but only the majority.

[red.yoshi]

Well, i am an atheist (ATHEIST not satanist, us atheists don't believe in god(s) for various reasons. My self, i don't believe since i haven't been presented with actual evidence that would support that there is a god or even multiple ones. I admit, always doesn't make sense either. But it has more logic than religions... imo), but that's besides the point.
I see no other reason for human life that to survive and reproduce. Same however goes for all animals, plants, everything that lives.

And as for OCD, they can sometimes be some sort of phobias, or caused by one, but mainly they are just illogical obsessions, that don't make up much if any sense, at lest to everyone else, except the person suffering from the OCD, if even to them. I myself have a phobia, and a small OCD.

I fear bees, and i think this has stuck to me from my early childhood, since i accidentally stepped on one. And as for my nail biting, i have no clear explanation for it. It's not because of stress or anything like that. It's just a bad habit, that may be left from my childhood as well. As a kid, i got into lots of fights, and sometimes i would get comment on my longish nails... so i bit them off... and i know it doesn't sound reasonable, because it isn't.

And i forgot what i was about to say if anything...

You're getting at what I was getting at- ocd mannerisms and phobias aren't spontaneous or "unwarrented." They do have some sort of origin in one way or another.

And I would have to agree with Bliz. Married couples who would rather not have children either because they like the quiet, or they're too busy, or something. Whatever the reason, in most if not all cases, it ultimately boils down to not wanting to take the responsibility or lack there of. Whether or not the couple abstains from sex is a different story. '~'

[winkio]

@Dio: Yeah, I agree with that. Humanity as a whole probably has a purpose as well.
I think that people who make a choice not to have children just use it as excuse to get away from responsibility. But that's just my opinion. Also, I'm generalizing here, it doesn't have to apply to every single person but only the majority.

Does that apply to the majority?  I think not.  I've found the economic way of looking at this more satisfying: people that would not gain any net benefit from having children do not have any children.  People that do gain benefit do have children.

[Blizzard]

I think that you are overlooking important factors if you look at it from a strict economic point of view. There are lots of people that could afford having children, yet they choose not to. In fact, most couples that have successful careers tend to have a lot less children than couples that are less successful or couples where only one partner has a (not-so-successful) career. Basically I think that human psychology plays a major part in the decision whether to have children or not. And I think that the psychological reasons are most influent.

[winkio]

I think you don't understand economics.  Benefit and cost aren't just in money.  They can be in happiness, satisfaction, pride, experience, etc.  For example, why do people use RMXP for non-commercial projects?  Because they get benefit from working with it.

[Blizzard]

I think I understand pretty well what Economics is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics It seems to me that you are generalizing Economics now to be pretty much everything which is not true.

[winkio]

I don't need to read the Wikipedia page on economics, I've read and used several textbooks.  Although if you want to look at some relevant Wikipedia articles, follow the link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory Economics, well at least microeconomics, which is what applies to this situation, is the study of human choice in markets.  This does, as you stated, apply to pretty much everything, in terms of situations in the human record.  I'm not going to regurgitate everything I know, but let me just show one example:

You are at a bar and want to buy drinks.  You drink 5 drinks before leaving.  Why?  Each drink costs the same amount.  You get a lot of benefit from the first few, but less and less benefit as you keep drinking, and eventually, you get no more benefit, because if you drank anymore (the 6th drink), you would not feel well enough to warrant paying for it, so you stop.

Now imagine instead of paying for drinks, you had to do magic tricks for them.  It takes time and money to prepare each trick, and you have to do a new trick for each drink.  Some people will value their time too highly to prepare tricks, and thus will not drink any.  Others will prepare 4 tricks for 4 drinks, after which the 5 drink is not worth the time and money spent preparing the 5th trick, because they don't benefit enough to warrant the cost.

Bringing it back on topic, having children has many costs: emotional pain, childbirth pain, costs to support them as they grow up, strain on relationships and work, etc.  Children also provide benefit: they allow you to live vicariously into the future, provide love and excitement, etc.  These costs and benefits vary on an individual basis, and thus some will have children because the benefits outweigh the costs, and some will not, because the costs outweigh the benefits.

[red.yoshi]

Not to set up a brick wall, but economics is completely society influenced. So is much of the decision to have children or to not have children.

That being said, we can conclude that society probably has the most influence on whether or not a couple has children. Although unrealistic, I'd propose that without these influences that all able humans would reproduce and have children.

I'd further like to say that anyone who brings modern day social influences to the table, with any technology what-so-ever, adds more variables to the picture. Scratch what I said earlier about couples being abstinent for lack of responsibility. If one feels that s/he will lose money for any reason or cause, s/he will prevent losing money at all costs. Why? Money = security, security = safety.

This draws back to what I said much earlier on in this topic. Basically, humans will do anything to survive, the first and foremost drive we have in life. All mentally stable humans will go any amount of distance to secure their lives, even if it endangers the lives of others. It's simply human nature.

After these means of survival have been established, then procreation enters the picture. I'd argue that any able couple who doesn't choose to procreate feels that by having children their means of survival are endangered.