Animal Rights

Started by Power Hungry Midget, January 16, 2011, 01:41:37 pm

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Power Hungry Midget

I'm a vegetarian/vegan. I'm trying to cut out dairy products at them moment. I've dropped milk and butter. But I still eat cheese and eggs and chocolate. Being vegan is difficult in Ireland, I'm just trying to source good alternatives and my parents aren't being very co-operative. Anyway, I'm a strong believer in animal rights. I don't think they should have some rights that we do. I mean, I don't think we should be making our horses senators like Caligula. But I do think that animals should have their freedom. Imprisoning them, torturing them, drugging them and murdering them just for food is wrong. There are alternatives which aren't damaging to the environment and the animals. Maybe I'm a bit of a radical, what do you think? Should animals have their freedom?

The plot thickens......

I have a mind to join a club and then beat you over the head with it.
     -Groucho Marx
I often quote myself. I find it adds spice to the conversation.
     -George Bernard Shaw

http://xkcd.com/303

Bigamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is the same.
    -Oscar Wilde

winkio

Two things I really want to say.

1)  People have this horrible misconception of nature as this happy, peaceful, utopian environment that is only disturbed by humans.  In reality, it's a warzone, where every species is competing with every other species for survival.  Things die surprisingly quickly in nature, compared with those in human-created environments.

2)  Over 90% of the animals that we raise as livestock are not designed to live in the wild; they are genetically engineered for food.  These animals can't survive on their own.  Also, we hold far too many animals to just release them all into the wild.  It would destroy the ecosystems wherever they went.

ForeverZer0

January 16, 2011, 02:07:42 pm #2 Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 02:09:08 pm by ForeverZer0
I'm love animals. I find it appalling to hear stories about torture and cruelty to them.
I am not a radical by any means about it though. I don't quite understand exactly what you mean by "freedom" for animals. If you are referring to not keeping animals as pets, I would strongly disagree with that. I have had many pets (mainly dogs and cats), that love me as much, if not more, than I love them. The relationship is a mutual friendship. If I attempted to "release" them to give them there "freedom", they would be very upset and die of starvation while clawing at my door.

Neither do I believe it is wrong to use animals as food. In my experience, I have you to see encounter any "vegan" who is not utterly blind to the blaring contradiction of being a vegeterian. They won't eat any meat because an animal had to die for it, but fail to see the connection that an animal died to put the shoes on their feet, and countless other things they use everyday in daily life. I believe the animals should be treated humanely throughout the process, they are living creatures that feel, but in the end I have no problem with using them as food.

One thing I would like to see is harsher punishment for animal cruelty. In the US where I live, our current laws a barely a deterrent against it. You could sadistically torture your pets to death, and in most cases only have to pay a fine. Very seldom will someone be imprisoned for it, and even then only briefly (less than a year in 99% of cases). This is a joke considering you can do years for not paying your taxes. On a scale of punishment, I would place animal abuse right under crimes against humans such as assault and what not.
I am done scripting for RMXP. I will likely not offer support for even my own scripts anymore, but feel free to ask on the forum, there are plenty of other talented scripters that can help you.

RoseSkye

January 16, 2011, 02:27:47 pm #3 Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 02:29:24 pm by RoseSkye

If humans went extinct tomorrow other animals would still be killed off. Vegetarian animals, and carnivore alike. This Utopian shit daydreaming is pre-school... we need to consume living things to survive... period. Water, plant, other animals, whatever. If every fucking animal on the face of the planet became vegetarian tomorrow... guess how long it'd take for the earth to die? Nature is an advanced game of "rock paper scissors"
Carnivore > Vegan
Vegan >  Plant
Plant > Carnivore

Wildcard = Omnivore

Survival of the fittest? Yeah, that's close to it... but it's more like crowd control. If you're worthless, die off and let the young'uns have their moment in the sun.

Now onto animal rights.. yeah, asides from other animals being food they shouldn't be treated cruelly before they die.

Subsonic_Noise

I'm vegan myself, and yes, I do believe in animal rights. I constantly get people saying animals are lesser beings, but why? Because they don't have the same interlectual capacities than humans? Well, that's great, let's start and torture, chop up and eat metally challanged people too, they don't either.. And really, intelligence is a human standard. Didn't we all learn "survival of the fittest"? Yes, humans have spread pretty far around. But there are organisms that practically remained unchanged for millions of years, and are all over the world... Would that make humans "lesser beings" then them? Humans have been around for a ridicoulously short time in comparision.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against using animal products in general (although I never would, and I would prefer a world without it), I just see this in a "give and take" way. Threat them fairly and like the living creatures that they are in a morally justifiable way, and you may take from them, too. The life of an animal in my eyes isn't worth less than the one of a human. Yes, a human may kill an animal to have food, no, he may not torture and kill millions of them just to have alot of cheap meat on their plate every fucking day. You do not need it, it's just for pleasure - and for your pleasure all these animals have to suffer. That is decadence at its best.

Now I will get attacked by many people probably, but I do not care. Go on.

Quote from: winkio on January 16, 2011, 01:53:30 pm
2)  Over 90% of the animals that we raise as livestock are not designed to live in the wild; they are genetically engineered for food.  These animals can't survive on their own.  Also, we hold far too many animals to just release them all into the wild.  It would destroy the ecosystems wherever they went.

Just a proof of how humans keep doing things without thinking about the consequences even once before. Same goes for nuclear waste. We still do not have proper ways to get rid of it / store it safely for longer times. We now have a big industry based on the exploit and torture of animals, and no way to stop it in any way. Great fucking job, really. The only way would be to gradually make it smaller and smaller - stop breeding more of the genetically engineered animals, until we reached a reasonable amount of them. Those can then actually be threated like living creatures. people will stil have their animal products, yes, they would be more expensive so people will have less of it, but it will be morally justifiable. I repeat once more: Animals are living creatures. They feel pain, fear, arguably happiness, just like humans do. What gives us the right to torture them for our pleasure?

Power Hungry Midget

That thing about vegetarians and the shoes. To me they are the worst type of veggies. The hypocrites. Also feel the same way about you(sorry), you are a hypocrite as well. You love animals, you love your cats and your dogs and you dislike cruelty towards them but it doesn't bother you in the slightest if the ugly dirty "food" animals are treated cruelly and then murdered to put some great slab of unhealthiness on your plate. I don't wear any leather whatsoever. My mother bought me leather shoes and I told her to bring them back. Yes, when I drink milk I'm supporting the veal industry but milk is difficult to get away from because it is everywhere. It's in things you don't expect. I have  soy milk but I found out today that brown bread has sour milk in it or something. :'(
I have a cat, I don't imprison him. He can leave and live his own life if he wants. I'm not exploiting him, I feed him and give him shelter. He's happy. Yes he kills birds and rats but he doesn't imprison them and then string them up by their noses and cut their throats with a rotating blade. I realise nature is vicious and there is a circle of life but we are destroying the natural chain of humans hunting in the wild and keeping enough animals to suffice their own needs and treating the animals well up until they kill them.

Quote from: winkio on January 16, 2011, 01:53:30 pm


2)  Over 90% of the animals that we raise as livestock are not designed to live in the wild; they are genetically engineered for food.  These animals can't survive on their own.  Also, we hold far too many animals to just release them all into the wild.  It would destroy the ecosystems wherever they went.

Maybe they should stop the irresponsible mass breeding of the animals then there wouldn't be as many animals. Also if the slaughter houses and farms were shut down the animals could live relatively happily there..
Genetically Engineered? Domesticated is the correct term I believe. Also you say "the wild" which implies that you believe animals should be imprisoned. Chickens can live happily outside of the prisons. Chickens can live up to 20 years and are as intelligent as cats or dogs, they can also provide companionship and can be loving towards humans. . You wouldn't eat a cat or a dog? Would you?

The plot thickens......

I have a mind to join a club and then beat you over the head with it.
     -Groucho Marx
I often quote myself. I find it adds spice to the conversation.
     -George Bernard Shaw

http://xkcd.com/303

Bigamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is the same.
    -Oscar Wilde

winkio

Quote from: Power Hungry Midget on January 16, 2011, 02:52:21 pm
Genetically Engineered? Domesticated is the correct term I believe.


Nope, genetically engineered.  Food chickens weigh over 5 times the weight of normal chickens, and many are so heavy that their legs cannot support them.  Food cows are not quite as bad, but they still are disgustingly oversized.

Food is a business.  It's not like we went into the wild and enslaved the innocent little forest critters.  We found animals that we wanted to eat, and figured out ways to eat them en masse.  If you don't like it, go back to being a hunter gatherer.  Throw out your computer, your clothes, your technology, your house, because all those were made possible by farming and raising animals for food.

Subsonic_Noise

Quote from: winkio on January 16, 2011, 03:01:18 pm
farming and raising animals for food.

You don't get the difference, do you? Let me explain with pictures.


NOT OK: ShowHide


Maybe read the posts made before yours.

ForeverZer0

Nobody here is condoning animals, even those raised for food, to be treated badly.
Why do does that keep popping up as an agument as if people are saying it is?

I would love for someone to point out a previous quote that did say this.
I can point out a few the explicitly said it was wrong.
I am done scripting for RMXP. I will likely not offer support for even my own scripts anymore, but feel free to ask on the forum, there are plenty of other talented scripters that can help you.

RoseSkye

Quote from: Subsonic_Noise on January 16, 2011, 02:46:11 pm
I'm vegan myself, and yes, I do believe in animal rights. I constantly get people saying animals are lesser beings, but why? Because they don't have the same interlectual capacities than humans? Well, that's great, let's start and torture, chop up and eat metally challanged people too, they don't either.. And really, intelligence is a human standard. Didn't we all learn "survival of the fittest"? Yes, humans have spread pretty far around. But there are organisms that practically remained unchanged for millions of years, and are all over the world... Would that make humans "lesser beings" then them? Humans have been around for a ridicoulously short time in comparision.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against using animal products in general (although I never would, and I would prefer a world without it), I just see this in a "give and take" way. Threat them fairly and like the living creatures that they are in a morally justifiable way, and you may take from them, too. The life of an animal in my eyes isn't worth less than the one of a human. Yes, a human may kill an animal to have food, no, he may not torture and kill millions of them just to have alot of cheap meat on their plate every fucking day. You do not need it, it's just for pleasure - and for your pleasure all these animals have to suffer. That is decadence at its best.

Now I will get attacked by many people probably, but I do not care. Go on


.. difference between the two of us.
A. You think humans aren't animals. My wording was 'other animals' meaning that I don't see myself above what I eat.
B. You somehow think that you're some kind of high and mighty being (ironically) to think that because you don't eat meat of the "lesser beings" you're granting them some sort divine favor. As an animal capable of empathy, yeah... it sucks that they have to die for me to live but something has to die or I will die. Your morals are bullshit when it comes down to it. If you're put in a situation where you HAVE to eat meat or die, you will... and so will any vegan animal. Kittens consume meat, and they are no less cute because of it.

As I stated before, I do not like the fact that animals are treated inhumanely before they die... and to be honest it'd be a bit more beneficial if humans hunted and killed their own food before consuming it instead of doing it in bulk. The vegan position should be 'hunt and kill your own food' not 'you're a monster because you consume other animals'. I mean, most people wont go through the hassle of trapping rabbits, hunting deer, or anything of that nature... not to mention cleaning their own food. If Americans in general had to do that EVERY DAY we would not be as fat and lazy nor would we consume so many creatures. A salad takes way less time... hell, even beans or noodles..

Power Hungry Midget

Because Foreverzero. Free range animals are still treated cruelly. By eating an meat you are saying you think it is acceptable for them to be treated cruelly. There are loopholes in the rules for a free-range animal. For example they get one or two hours outside, that's free range. They have a window or natural light, that is apparently free range. They stick their heads through the windows. They're outside therefore it's free range. There's no discrimination in the slaughterhouse. Free range or not things will be unpleasant. By eating meat you are condoning cruelty towards animals.

Also Roseskye, some people wouldn't be capable of killing an animal. I would kill an animal to survive, I would hunt it and kill it myself. I don't need to however. Hunting nowadays can sometimes consist of an animal being let out of a cage and chased for the thrill.

The plot thickens......

I have a mind to join a club and then beat you over the head with it.
     -Groucho Marx
I often quote myself. I find it adds spice to the conversation.
     -George Bernard Shaw

http://xkcd.com/303

Bigamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is the same.
    -Oscar Wilde

Subsonic_Noise

Quote from: RoseSkye on January 16, 2011, 03:15:39 pm
Quote from: Subsonic_Noise on January 16, 2011, 02:46:11 pm
I'm vegan myself, and yes, I do believe in animal rights. I constantly get people saying animals are lesser beings, but why? Because they don't have the same interlectual capacities than humans? Well, that's great, let's start and torture, chop up and eat metally challanged people too, they don't either.. And really, intelligence is a human standard. Didn't we all learn "survival of the fittest"? Yes, humans have spread pretty far around. But there are organisms that practically remained unchanged for millions of years, and are all over the world... Would that make humans "lesser beings" then them? Humans have been around for a ridicoulously short time in comparision.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against using animal products in general (although I never would, and I would prefer a world without it), I just see this in a "give and take" way. Threat them fairly and like the living creatures that they are in a morally justifiable way, and you may take from them, too. The life of an animal in my eyes isn't worth less than the one of a human. Yes, a human may kill an animal to have food, no, he may not torture and kill millions of them just to have alot of cheap meat on their plate every fucking day. You do not need it, it's just for pleasure - and for your pleasure all these animals have to suffer. That is decadence at its best.

Now I will get attacked by many people probably, but I do not care. Go on


.. difference between the two of us.
A. You think humans aren't animals. My wording was 'other animals' meaning that I don't see myself above what I eat.

Funnily enough, I do not. We are all animals when it comes down to it, which is part of what I wanted to say. I was using the commonly used definition of humans and animals as opposed to the biological one, since that one was used in this thread to begin with.

B. You somehow think that you're some kind of high and mighty being (ironically) to think that because you don't eat meat of the "lesser beings" you're granting them some sort divine favor. As an animal capable of empathy, yeah... it sucks that they have to die for me to live but something has to die or I will die.

Yes, but really - nobody would die if they ate /less/ meat, and that is all I am asking for. If we cut back on eating meat, we wouldn't need this mess of an industry.

Your morals are bullshit when it comes down to it. If you're put in a situation where you HAVE to eat meat or die, you will... and so will any vegan animal. Kittens consume meat, and they are no less cute because of it.

Trust me, I was put in a maybe not as drastic situation, but a similar one. It didn't involve me nearly dying, but yes, I collapsed multiple times. I am not above animals, I see they are like me (in some ways) and therefore I refuse to have them go through suffering I would not want to go through. Is this easier to understand?

As I stated before, I do not like the fact that animals are treated inhumanely before they die... and to be honest it'd be a bit more beneficial if humans hunted and killed their own food before consuming it instead of doing it in bulk. The vegan position should be 'hunt and kill your own food' not 'you're a monster because you consume other animals'.

I actually second that. I would never blame anyone who hunted his own food. I actually said that in my post.

I mean, most people wont go through the hassle of trapping rabbits, hunting deer, or anything of that nature... not to mention cleaning their own food. If Americans in general had to do that EVERY DAY we would not be as fat and lazy nor would we consume so many creatures. A salad takes way less time... hell, even beans or noodles..

Exactly. So, isn't that a good thing?

Power Hungry Midget

You should go watch earthlings. http://www.watchearthlings.com/
I thought I said that in an earlier post but I didn't actually.

The plot thickens......

I have a mind to join a club and then beat you over the head with it.
     -Groucho Marx
I often quote myself. I find it adds spice to the conversation.
     -George Bernard Shaw

http://xkcd.com/303

Bigamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is the same.
    -Oscar Wilde

tSwitch

January 16, 2011, 05:50:07 pm #13 Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 05:52:10 pm by NAMKCOR
I like eating meat.
It's tasty, provides necessary nutrients, and there's plenty of it.

Sorry, but I'm not going to feel bad about cows.


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Ryex

ok, here is a few things vegans clearly don't understand.

1) the world sucks, no matter what rose colored lens to look through it just sucks.
2) being vegan as a protest to the cruelty WILL NOT I repeat WILL  NOT make it go away, in fact such would be impossible with out some sort of global cultural revolution or global fall of civilization. the latter you really DON'T want
3) in this world things die so that others can live, thats a fact that there is no way around. snakes eat vermin, wolves eat cows, scavengers eat what everyone else leaves behind. nothing can live with out killing something else. that white glue you use in your art class? made from cows. the computer chips in your computer? in a few years it may be that it is made from chicken feathers. do your shoes have leather in them? they should if they are on any decent quality, synthetics just don't last as long. guess what some sort of creature died to get the leather be it goat or cow. all of creation has been living of of other creations sense the dawn of time. you CAN NOT live your life with out killing A LOT of creatures to sustain your self

now all of this is not to say that animals don't matter. animals should be treated crucially just because. but guess what we live in a world where cruelty has profit. and thats not going to change, ever. accept and grow up.

Quote from: NAMKCOR on January 16, 2011, 05:50:07 pm
I like eating meat.


I love your trolling abilities NAM, can you share some of your secrets?
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Subsonic_Noise

I love how you failed to read anything I wrote... god when is this gonna stop. I will not repeat myself.
1) Doesn't mean we're not able to change it.
2) If every person thinks this way nothing is ever gonna change. One person not eating animal products means less money for the meat industry, and the more people do it the higher the loss. Yes, this alone won't change it, but that would be the same as saying "I don't vote for the party I support, because the other party will win anyways". Yes, one person can't change anything. But a mass of people can, and that won't happen if nobody starts it.
3) Reread my post please. I don't feel like repeating this point again.

Quote from: NAMKCOR on January 16, 2011, 05:50:07 pm
I like eating meat.
It's tasty, provides necessary nutrients, and there's plenty of it.

Sorry, but I'm not going to feel bad about cows.

Good for you. I don't give a fuck.

tSwitch

Quote from: Subsonic_Noise on January 16, 2011, 06:11:15 pm
Good for you. I don't give a fuck.


Awesome, then maybe we can work together here, because I don't give a fuck about the fact that you think cows deserve our care and respect.  With our mutual apathy, perhaps we can just stop this.

Maybe you can be the first vegan in history to shut your gab and stop perpetuating this stupid idea that there's some sort of moral supremacy to not eating meat.  Nobody here cares, and nobody wants to have it thrown in our faces.

Fucking hipster.


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ForeverZer0

You must be dense.

It will not happen. You can start and try, but in case you haven't noticed, the other 95% of the world doesn't feel the way you do about eating meat. We have no problems with it. Maybe you should read previous posts.
I am done scripting for RMXP. I will likely not offer support for even my own scripts anymore, but feel free to ask on the forum, there are plenty of other talented scripters that can help you.

Subsonic_Noise

Quote from: NAMKCOR on January 16, 2011, 06:13:38 pm
Quote from: Subsonic_Noise on January 16, 2011, 06:11:15 pm
Good for you. I don't give a fuck.


Awesome, then maybe we can work together here, because I don't give a fuck about the fact that you think cows deserve our care and respect.  With our mutual apathy, perhaps we can just stop this.

Maybe you can be the first vegan in history to shut your gab and stop perpetuating this stupid idea that there's some sort of moral supremacy to not eating meat.  Nobody here cares, and nobody wants to have it thrown in our faces.

Fucking hipster.

oh you. You see, maybe I should have never posted more than that very first post if people didn't start attacking me. If people attack me, I will defend my point. If you don't give a fuck, don't attack me and I won't fight back.
Seriously, how can you say things like in this thread and then expect a vegan to "shut his gab". We have a right to defend ourselves just like anyone else.

Quote from: ForeverZer0 on January 16, 2011, 06:15:14 pm
You must be dense.

It will not happen. You can start and try, but in case you haven't noticed, the other 95% of the world doesn't feel the way you do about eating meat. We have no problems with it. Maybe you should read previous posts.

Because you totally represent 95% of the world. The percentage of vegetarians and vegans is constantly growing, and the more we are the more we can change. Please remember that a big percentage of the population was against rights for homosexuals, too. With time, things can change.

ForeverZer0

You are correct.

I will now began holding my breath until the Big Day the World Stops Violently Slaughtering Cows for Their Own Evil Stomachs arrives.
I am done scripting for RMXP. I will likely not offer support for even my own scripts anymore, but feel free to ask on the forum, there are plenty of other talented scripters that can help you.