Basic Features

[winkio]

So I just tried out the demo and it feels a little too... chaotic.  There's also no way timed hits can work.

Also, I personally don't like ATB, because I always feel like I'm either waiting (for the bar to recharge) or being rushed (when multiple bars fill up at the same time).  I like sequential systems better.  I would much rather prefer some type of SBS.

What do other people think?

[WhiteRose]

So I just tried out the demo and it feels a little too... chaotic.  There's also no way timed hits can work.

Also, I personally don't like ATB, because I always feel like I'm either waiting (for the bar to recharge) or being rushed (when multiple bars fill up at the same time).  I like sequential systems better.  I would much rather prefer some type of SBS.

What do other people think?

Though I like Zer0's CBS for what it is - a Chrono Trigger style CBS - I agree that it's not the best fit for this game. I think the best combination would be some sort of mix of the Super Mario RPG and Final Fantasy X battle systems.

[winkio]

Right, I mean if we include timed hits, there's only so much that can be going on at once.

But as for the battle happening on the map, I think it could be pulled off really effectively.  Using the same character sprites and the same map, and just organizing into fighting formations would look pretty good imo.

[WhiteRose]

Right, I mean if we include timed hits, there's only so much that can be going on at once.

But as for the battle happening on the map, I think it could be pulled off really effectively.  Using the same character sprites and the same map, and just organizing into fighting formations would look pretty good imo.

The only problem with that is that then we would have to implement movement during combat (approaching target to attack, etc.) Players will be used to seeing those sprites moving and walking around; having them just freeze for combat would seem like a cop-out on the developers' (read: our) part. If our scripters are willing to develop a system that would allow for this, though, I'm fine with it.

[winkio]

True.  I also just realized that tiles with priority, (including trees and especially including whatever shenanigans we pull in the corruption zone) would cover the sprites.  So battlebacks seem like a much better idea

[Hatsamu]

I have no problem at all with Turn Based systems and the old "being transported to another map during fights" thing.


The timing feature would be cool, and:

For example, when you use a bow, a large crosshair pops up, which takes about 1 full second to shrink down to a point during which you can move it around, and then the arrow is fired.

We could add something like a "magic symbol" with the same purpose.
(Something like this:

Spoiler: ShowHide

[winkio]

So, for our battle system, we know we are using battlebacks, but do we want to arrange the characters horizontally (party on left side, monsters on right side) or vertically (party on bottom, monsters on top)?  Diagonally is not really an option, because we would have to do too many graphics.  I am in favor of vertically myself.

Slightly diagonal would work, for example:
X         O
X         O
  X         O

or

             X
X                         X


             O
O                         O

[WhiteRose]

I think we should have the party on the bottom and the monsters on top; it would also look neat (in my opinion,) to have the party member's backs to the screen, rather than the standard RTP style with everyone facing the screen. It also might be neat to have everyone on the battle back, rather than having the party members in a window like the standard battle system. We'd have to find somewhere else to put the command windows, though. Maybe we could have them appear above the party members when it was their turn?

[Hatsamu]

We'd have to find somewhere else to put the command windows, though. Maybe we could have them appear above the party members when it was their turn?

Or maybe a window at the bottom with a picture of the selected figther, like this:

             X
X                         X


             O
O                         O
[O attack  magic  item ]

[winkio]

Also, another thing to think about is that if we do it vertically, it would get cramped pretty quickly.  Would we want to size down battlers, or maybe find/make smaller ones, or something else?

[WhiteRose]

Also, another thing to think about is that if we do it vertically, it would get cramped pretty quickly.  Would we want to size down battlers, or maybe find/make smaller ones, or something else?

We could probably stick to the RTP enemy battlers, but since we're going to need custom battlers for our party anyway, we could just have them designed to be a little smaller than the default RTP battlers.

[AliveDrive]

I'm fine with either style.

I was curious about actually visualizing a row position.

Melee attackers and damage sponges in front.

Mages, rangers, and potions in back.

This feature is actually included in RMXP but is not displayed, and that always bothered me. I dislike hidden attributes.

[The Niche]

Agreed.

[RoseSkye]

I'll join this project... just send me the project when it's my turn to edit (if it's that type of community project) and I'll pwn.

[winkio]

Awesome.  There's not really turns, so when you see something that you want to do (something in mapping/eventing from the sound of it), just post saying that you are doing it.  Of course, if it was a mapping task, you would need to be 'licensed' first.

[WhiteRose]

I'll join this project... just send me the project when it's my turn to edit (if it's that type of community project) and I'll pwn.

Awesome! It'll be great to have your help; I've watched some of the footage of your games on YouTube, and you definitely have a lot of talent in RMXP.

[winkio]

I don't like the idea of weakpoints as multi-bodied enemies, as it just presents a small obstacle.  There is no timing or aiming factor required to hit the weakpoint, so if you know where it is, you are guaranteed a hit.  However, since we are talking about a reaction based component, we could make some aiming/timing required to hit the weakpoint/deal extra damage.  For example, when you use a bow, a large crosshair pops up, which takes about 1 full second to shrink down to a point during which you can move it around, and then the arrow is fired.

I've developed this further, and its at the point where I'm wondering if it will be too complex for the player to grasp.  What I'm thinking is this:

We will define multiple 'hitboxes' for each battler, which should correspond to detail on the characters battler.  When attacking, your cursor starts out at a random place on the battler, and you have 1 second to move it to your target hitbox, after which the attack hits whatever hitbox it is on.  We would have a script where we can define how damage is calculated differently for each hitbox, and thus have weakpoints and armored points and such.  Optionally, when defending a monster's attack, you will see the enemy cursor and your own cursor (both of which start at random places).  The enemy cursor will move according to somewhat random patterns, and if you manage to keep your cursor on the same hitbox as the enemy cursor once time runs out, you defend the attack (half damage, just like normal defending).  The same could be done for when the player attacks enemies (where we program the enemy cursor to follow the player's)

I think it would be cool and different, but it would make long battles tedious, and I don't know how well the player would grasp it.

Also, I had a separate idea where timed hits would just be based off of charging an attack for the correct period of time (ex, hold down spacebar and your character gets lighter and lighter, release at white for maximum charge (0.5-1 seconds), hold too long and it deals uncharged damage.

And finally, just something about how battles are fought in general:

In the default battle system, you select your whole party's actions at once, and then they are performed according to agility stats.  I'd prefer performing actions one at a time, immediately after they are selected.  For example, the fastest person (enemy or actor) would choose to attack first, the attack would be executed, then the next fastest person (enemy or actor) would do their action, etc.  It would also allow us to have extremely fast bosses that have multiple attack rounds for round the party members have.

[Hatsamu]

We will define multiple 'hitboxes' for each battler, which should correspond to detail on the characters battler.  When attacking, your cursor starts out at a random place on the battler, and you have 1 second to move it to your target hitbox, after which the attack hits whatever hitbox it is on.  We would have a script where we can define how damage is calculated differently for each hitbox, and thus have weakpoints and armored points and such.  Optionally, when defending a monster's attack, you will see the enemy cursor and your own cursor (both of which start at random places).  The enemy cursor will move according to somewhat random patterns, and if you manage to keep your cursor on the same hitbox as the enemy cursor once time runs out, you defend the attack (half damage, just like normal defending).  The same could be done for when the player attacks enemies (where we program the enemy cursor to follow the player's)

I think it would be cool and different, but it would make long battles tedious, and I don't know how well the player would grasp it.

I like it (and I've got it right first time I've read it.)
I'd try it, I think players will get it the right way. The only issue I could see against this is battle's lenght. We need to be sure not to make them longer than they should be.

Also, I had a separate idea where timed hits would just be based off of charging an attack for the correct period of time (ex, hold down spacebar and your character gets lighter and lighter, release at white for maximum charge (0.5-1 seconds), hold too long and it deals uncharged damage.

I sincerely don't like this too much as it is.
Maybe if the timing varies from attack to attack pretty much like in SMRPG where some attacks where more effective if you pressed the button at some exact moment and others where powered up by repeteadly tapping a button. If we add this to the "charge" thing and make different kind of attacks have different kind of timed hits it would be better and "less repetitive".

Anyway, I like better the aiming cursor idea.

In the default battle system, you select your whole party's actions at once, and then they are performed according to agility stats.  I'd prefer performing actions one at a time, immediately after they are selected.  For example, the fastest person (enemy or actor) would choose to attack first, the attack would be executed, then the next fastest person (enemy or actor) would do their action, etc.  It would also allow us to have extremely fast bosses that have multiple attack rounds for round the party members have.

Yep, I agree with this; its more dynamic.

[WhiteRose]

I really like winkio's idea regarding action order, and think we should definitely implement that.

As for your ideas with the cursor and charge attacks, I like them, but, like you mentioned, they might make quick random battles seem longer than necessary and tedious. A few solutions would be to either have them only apply to certain attacks, be able to disable them (speeding up battles, but taking away the potential for any bonus damage and just giving a fairly average amount for every hit,) or to just make sure the battles flow very quickly so the mechanics don't seem so bad - this could be done by having very little time in between attacks, or even going slightly FFX-2 style and having attacks be able to happen at the same time if the user mashes the button quickly enough.

I'm partial to either my second or third idea. The second would be fairly easy to implement; the third might be more difficult, but it would make battles seem very fast paced and exciting.

Another possibility would be to implement more than one of these ideas or, of course, come up with something else entirely.

One other things we could implement that might be interesting would be applying more than one type of action-event (the cursor thing, or the charging attacks,) and having it be different either for different characters, or for different weapon types. One problem with that is we would have to come up with a variety of different action-events and, perhaps an even bigger issue, code them all up. So, it might be best to just stick to one. I figured I'd at least throw the idea out there, however.

[winkio]

I don't think the cursor would work well with small battlers, I say we think of something else.

If we made custom animations for every skill/attack, we would use those to time the hits/blocks.  Animations are built in to have hit and miss animations, but we could just always use the miss animation for normal hits, and only use the hit animation for timed hits.  I'd say it's probably our best option right now.

EDIT: I just finished making the one-person at a time modification to the default battle system.  I'll hold onto it and integrate it into whatever we end up using.