Magic discussion

[winkio]

How does magic work?  We know that relatively weak magic can be performed without titanium, but titanium drastically increases magical power.

I like the idea of having different levels of magic, where level 0 requires no titanium, level 1 requires 1 titanium, etc.  By using different types of titanium related to different areas of magic, we could give the player some control over how their characters are set up (ex. pure fire titanium, or half fire, half lightning, etc.).  Different levels would unlock different skills, and some hybrid skills would need levels in multiple types of magic.

[AliveDrive]

I want to somehow incorporate a skill mastery system where once a spell has been mastered it can be used regardless of the type or amount of titanium carried, but would not count towards new skills.

I.E.

Thunder - 1T (titanium)            Thunder (MASTERED) - 0T
|                                           |
Thunder+ - 2T                        Thunder+ - 2T
|                                           |
Thunder Rage - 4T                   Thunder Rage - 4T

[winkio]

I completely disagree.  The only thing skill or weapon mastery has any done in any game I've ever seen it is cause grindfests that lead to overpowered characters.

[Hatsamu]

Pure Titanium, (Water, Fire, Earth, Air) Titanium, Thunder Titanium, Dark Titanium, Sacred Titanium.

Pure could be used for "regular" skills (ie: Mystic Slash).

Elemental ones and Dark for Element/Darkness related Skills.

Sacred, being the less common one, for ultimate skills (perhaps even "summons").


For healing skills, Air and Water could provide them so we won't need a "Healing Titanium".


I like the Magic Levels and even more the possibility of combining Titanium in order to unlock hybrid skills.

[winkio]

We could just use the categories listed under RTP animations for types:
fire, ice, thunder, water, earth, wind, light, dark.  You know, those elements that are already set up.

Also, titanium would not necessarily have to be pure.  For example, you could have one that gives +3 to fire and +1 to light.

[AliveDrive]

I think we should limit the number of types, or we end up with a pokemon scenario.

What would be much simpler is to:

For healing skills, Air and Water could provide them so we won't need a "Healing Titanium".

I like the Magic Levels and even more the possibility of combining Titanium in order to unlock hybrid skills.

So that combinations create new types, but there are a limited number of combinations.

Fire + Fire = Haste
Fire + Earth = Dispel magic
Fire + Air = Fire Defense
Fire + Water = Blind

Earth + Earth = Stop
Earth + Air = Earth defense
Earth + Water = Slow

Air + Air = Barrier
Air + Water = Heal

Water + Water = M Barrier

What do you guys think?

[winkio]

So just 4 instead of 8?  Why not an odd number like 5 or a different even number like 6?  Because with 4 types and 4 characters, it just ends up being 1 element to each.

[AliveDrive]

I think we should limit the number of types, or we end up with a pokemon scenario.

What would be much simpler is to:

For healing skills, Air and Water could provide them so we won't need a "Healing Titanium".

I like the Magic Levels and even more the possibility of combining Titanium in order to unlock hybrid skills.

So that combinations create new types, but there are a limited number of combinations.

Fire + Fire = Haste
Fire + Earth = Dispel
Fire + Air = Burn
Fire + Water = Blind
Fire + Light = Stun
Fire + Dark = Makes no sense..., Dragon

Earth + Earth = Stop
Earth + Air = Demi/Gravity
Earth + Water = Slow
Earth + Light = DEF up
Earth + Dark = Earthquake

Air + Air = Barrier
Air + Water = Heal
Air + Light = Sleep
Air + Dark = Tornado


Water + Water = M Barrier
Water + Light = ATK up
Water + Dark = Poison

Light + Light = Revive
Light + Dark = Ultima

Dark + Dark = Chaos

What do you guys think?

[winkio]

Right, but there would be combinations of 5 or even 6 elements: Fire3 Air2 Earth1 = Meteor.

We could set the system up where each skill has to have a certain amount of each element to be used.

[AliveDrive]

Those were just examples, we can make a full list now if you want though. It took me a while to think some of those up. And some of them i just threw something down.

Light + Dark = Ultima

Those two would normally just cancel out xD.

[winkio]

I don't think we need a magic for every possible combination (that would be a lot).  We can make the skills first, and then assign them later.

[AliveDrive]

True, that would be a lot easier.

[WhiteRose]

Though I like the idea of having Titanium that matches up to different elements, the one element I'm not sure about is holy. I had thought that the Overgod represented the main "holy" faction in the game, and he has forbidden magic. My plan was that followers of the Overgod (most importantly William) are able to use a small part of his power to perform tasks such as healing - this would constitute the game's "holy" element, rather than grouping it together with magic.

Maybe we could implement some sort of system in which using more Titanium weakens your link to the Overgod, strengthening your magic but decreasing your holy power. This would be an interesting tie in to the story concept of William having to choose between the Church and the wizards (by the way, we should come up with a name for the group of wizards.)

Just an idea.

[AliveDrive]

The Mages. Too generic? Meh.

I like this idea a lot since it makes a lot of sense to me.

How hard would it be to implement two types of "MP"?

You know, Standard Magic and Divine Power? Or we could change those names, but I think it should be something along those lines.

[winkio]

Easy as pie to make two different skill sets.  I'm in favor of using PP (power points) and MP (magic points).

And I like the Overgod vs. Magic dynamic.

[Hatsamu]

Maybe we could implement some sort of system in which using more Titanium weakens your link to the Overgod, strengthening your magic but decreasing your holy power. This would be an interesting tie in to the story concept of William having to choose between the Church and the wizards (by the way, we should come up with a name for the group of wizards.)

I think this would be a great addition to the game as its original, not too complex and matches the storyline.


Also, with at least 6 types of Titanium (Air, Water, Fire, Earth, Thunder and Dark) and allowing combination of 2+ types, we can create many skills that have to be unlocking by getting and combining the right amount and kinds of it.


I'd still add the "Pure Titanium" to the game (it could just power up skills or something) so this would be the first Titanium William happens to get. Other way, the first "elemental titanium" obtained could lead the player to think of that element as the "main one". [/random thoughts]

[AliveDrive]

An interesting observation Hatsamu.

And since I forgot to mention earlier, I agree with the Holy element being mainly the Overgod's thing.

I like:

• Fire
  
• Earth
  
• Water
  
• Air
  
• and Dark type elements.
  
  I still think we should have other elemental type per se, but as a combination of other elements. Air + Water = Ice, Air + Fire = Thunder. Thoughts?
  
  As Winkio mentioned earlier, the database includes Thunder and Ice by default, but I feel the same effect can be achieved with less.
  
  If you think more elements is better, then so be it.

[winkio]

I think we would only use whatever base elements we have, and just reconfigure the database accordingly.  It's perfectly fine to only have 5 base elements.

[Hatsamu]

I'd go with the four elements (air, water, fire, earth) and a fifth one. But I was thinking of changing "Dark" to a new/original one as, after all, Titanium is used to "summon the dark powers". I mean, in this game-world any kind of magic is seen as "something dark" so having it as an element started sounding redundant for me. And a new element would be a nice addition too as we can created realy cool magic skills based on it, not being limited/guided by an already known element.

[winkio]

Pure magic?  It could have extremely powerful attacks that don't really correspond to any of the natural elements.  I like that idea too.

Also, in the database, we should make a holy element just to use for some of the Overgod based skills, but not as part of the magic.

[WhiteRose]

Pure magic?  It could have extremely powerful attacks that don't really correspond to any of the natural elements.  I like that idea too.

I agree with the pure magic idea; it's a cool concept. There's something similar in the Persona series of RPGs - in order to balance it, they make spells of that type have obscenely large MP costs. We could probably implement something similar in order to maintain balance.

[[Luke]]

Titanium shouldn't be a fuel, more like a catalyst for the magic. So for powerful spells as fireballs it would require the caster to hold a big object, like a wand (mage), but for small boosts it would work well with a ring or amulet (bard, warrior). Also titanium-enhanced weapons should be useful.

Now combining the elements is a great idea. Name the kinds of Titanium with colours to not bind them with one single element.

• Red Titanium - Vitality


• Yellow Titanium - Agility


• Blue Titanium - Spirit


• Green Titanium - Stamina

Fire = R + R
Thunder = R + Y
Wind = Y + Y
Ice = Y + B
Water = B + B
Nature = B + G
Earth = G + G
Death = G + R

Every artifact (weapon, ring, shield) has a number of slots. For example:

An Old Magical Sword has one slot.
Adding R titanium increases its attack power.
Adding Y titanium adds the statistics (DEX ang AGI) bonus.
Adding B titanium adds the MP and INT bonus.
Adding G titanium adds the HP/DEF bonus.

A Fine Magical Shield has two slots.
Adding B+Y adds the STR bonus and "Frost Ward" spell.
Adding G+G increases the shield's defence and adds "Stonewall" spell.

An Apprentice's Staff has three slots.
Adding R+R+R gives the player spells "Firebolt" (R+R) and "Fireball" (R+R+R)
Adding R+G+G gives the player spells "Curse" (G+R), "Stun" (G+G) and "Poison" (G+G+R)
Adding R+B+Y unlucks spells "Shock" (R+Y), "Freeze" (Y+B), "Stupefy" (R+B) and "Barrierbreak" (R+B+Y)
Also, the titanium boosts the stats.

Overall:
Adding titanium to a piece of equipment boost its stats and unlocks spells. Only one piece of titanium just increases the stats, but from two to four-five it unlocks useful spells.
Type of spell depends on the kind of equipment:
Weapon - attack, curse, and attack boost spells (offensive)
Offhand - shield, healing and other boost spells
Rings - various effects
Armor - physical-boost spells
Helmet - magic-boost spells

Of course "titanium slots" would be available only for metal objects, so a mage's robe can't unleash the "Stoneskin" spell.
"Magical" artifacts such as wands, spellbooks and rings should be more "titanium-able". So an Ultimate Archmage's Staff would have 6 slots and be able to hold RGRGRG combination being a call for a set of some lesser spells, "Fireball" (RRR), "Shockwave" (GGG), "Curse" (RG), "Death Coil" (RGRG) and "Breath of Death" (RGRGRG); or YYYYYY, unleashing all offensive pure-wind-based spells. IMHO the number of slots might be as well limited to 4 or 5, except you like overpowered omniscent elementalists.

What do you think about that?

[winkio]

Not a bad idea, but there are a few things to think about:

1.  We don't want the player to have to spend a lot of time organizing their titanium and spells each time they switch weapons or find new stuff.  Perhaps instead of equipping titanium to weapons and armor, it could be equipped directly to the character, and the weapons/armor simply determines the total number of slots.  Personally, I would just ditch the slots concept, and simply allow any character to equip any amount of titanium, but making the player have to distribute it evenly, so no party member can equip 2 more titanium than any other.
2.  I think making the skills first and assigning the titanium needed second is a better idea, just from a balance point of view.
3.  The colors might be a conflict with the animations, for example, if yellow is wind and green is lightning, which might mislead the player into configuring for different skills than they want.  By naming them after elements, we can fit our skills in anywhere we please.

[AliveDrive]

So.

Is there a cap to how many titanium can be equipped per person?

[[Luke]]

Idea: Stick to the titanium placed in equipment slots, but extractable ("extract all titanium" button). So the limit of titanium per character would be limited by the "magicness" of used artifacts. Therefore the mage character, who wields staff, will have more powerful spells than the others.

Now we have 2 ways to make that:

• Ingredients list - once the character learns a spell, (s)he has to equip a set of titanium to unlock it (or maybe just make it more efficient). Place where the titanium has to be equipped can rely on the kind of spell. That works if we want to set the spell list locked for all the characters.


• Unleashing - equipping titanium automatically unlocks the spell for the combination. That makes the spellbook more customizable - if player don't want to see another "warrior with flaming sword", he can equip the William's stuff with earth spells, making him the "tank" or air ones, making him the "blademaster".

So, now, we have four kinds of titanium:

• Red (fire)


• Yellow (air)


• Blue (water)


• Green (earth)

Spells are being unlocked by pairs of those:

F + F = fire spells (fireball, ignite, strength - depends on where it's put)
F + A = thunder spells (shock, paralyze, spark shield)
A + A = air spells (wind's fist, haste, knockdown)
A + W = ice spells (icebolt, freeze, frost armor)
W + W = water spells (geiser, antidote, healing)
W + E = nature spells (poison, entangling roots, regenaration)
E + E = earth spells (tremor, stun, stoneskin)
E + F = death spells (deathcoil, curse, vampirism)
Opposites:
A + E = darkness (fear, illusions, sleep)
F + W = holy (blessings, blindness)

Now every artifact can have any number of slots. For both methods (locked list of spells and customisable one) this works fine.

[winkio]

I'm still not a fan of having a complicated equipment screen.  I think it would hinder the player more than help them.

[AliveDrive]

Simplicity seems like it would also help us in the long run.

[winkio]

So I was whipping up a few skills so I could program them into the battle system, and had to think about what skills each character would use.  I think that magic should only be based on titanium, so it would be the same for all characters.  I think skills, on the other hand, should be character unique.  Here was what I came up with:

William: Holy skills.  Mend and Protect are the two I came up with.  I was thinking mostly support with maybe one or two 'smiting' skills.
Alice: Battle skills.  Used to exploit different attributes enemies can have (Heavily Armored vs. Lightly Armored, etc.).  For example, Piercing Strike would be good against heavily armored, and Bludgeon would be good against lightly armored.
Robin:  Music skills.  Songs that do a wide variety of things, from put the enemies to sleep, to remove status effects from the party, to causing damage, etc.
Gerald:  Mental skills.  While he doesn't have normal magic before titanium, he does learn something slightly different and unique.  Basically, his skills such as Mindshock and Psyblade use his INT stat for physical damage or defense.