ok, padding the sides is easy, and adding a minamum hight to the bodyarea element works it just leaves a blank space below the shout box if it's not long enough I just need to figure out how to get a second image to stack under the first image in the body-bgL and body-bgR areas so that when the first image runs out the second fills in the space I'm being an idiot I just need to add an image on top of the background! *slaps self*