Re: Philosophy

Started by 36inc, September 29, 2010, 08:36:54 pm

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36inc

Quote from: The Niche on September 29, 2010, 04:40:17 pm
I'll work on the comment box. Anyway, when I think of a soul, I think of what separates the living from electrons are much less likely to notice it than we are,considering the speed they'd have to move at for the theory to work.


Technically we dont know what ,or if it even exists, a soul is.
In reality it could be a mental trick of the brain.

We have alot of automatic features we dont need to think about in order to do.
Such as the act of breathing.or pumping blood through the heart.

These actions are done without you having to think about it.
So Im guessing certain things are genetically automatic.

Scientists have even found out how we sub consciously choose partners.
so what we like is simply genetic,no choice in the matter at all(cept to act on it)

So our "soul" isnt really a necessary feature and is more likely then not just a way for historically uninformed Societies to address our psyche.
After all 50% of what we think is real is going to automatically be incorrect.
And we'll never truly know anything but what we suppossed to know.

How to
Feed,Multiply,coexist and love.
I am Rose Erin.

Diokatsu

Quote from: 36inc on September 29, 2010, 08:36:54 pm
Scientists have even found out how we sub consciously choose partners.
so what we like is simply genetic,no choice in the matter at all(cept to act on it)


Disagree. Cite this fact, or I'm calling bullshit. I like plenty of things my parents don't, so it's not an inherited trait in all cases. I've also forced myself to like things, that is to say. Things that I like now are things I wouldn't have liked if I hadn't forced my appreciation for them.

On a note largely to everyone who is going to post: YOU AREN'T THAT SMART. THE PSEUDO-INTELLECTUAL SPEAK WITHOUT SOURCES FOR YOUR CLAIMS WON'T WORK. LEARN TO CITE STATS AND FACTS AND USE THEM TO SUPPORT AND COMPRISE YOUR ARGUMENT. YOU DON'T GET ANYWHERE WITH THIS HIGH-HANDED THEORETICAL SPEECH, SO TRY APPROACHING A THEORY THE CORRECT WAY I.D. REAL, HARD DATA. EVEN PHILOSOPHY WOULD HAVE A CLEAR, DEFINITE LOGIC TO IT. YOU DON'T GET ANYWHERE IF YOU CAN'T BACK IT UP.

36inc

Quote from: Diokatsu on September 29, 2010, 09:49:12 pm
Quote from: 36inc on September 29, 2010, 08:36:54 pm
Scientists have even found out how we sub consciously choose partners.
so what we like is simply genetic,no choice in the matter at all(cept to act on it)


Disagree. Cite this fact, or I'm calling bullshit. I like plenty of things my parents don't, so it's not an inherited trait in all cases. I've also forced myself to like things, that is to say. Things that I like now are things I wouldn't have liked if I hadn't forced my appreciation for them.

On a note largely to everyone who is going to post: YOU AREN'T THAT SMART. THE PSEUDO-INTELLECTUAL SPEAK WITHOUT SOURCES FOR YOUR CLAIMS WON'T WORK. LEARN TO CITE STATS AND FACTS AND USE THEM TO SUPPORT AND COMPRISE YOUR ARGUMENT. YOU DON'T GET ANYWHERE WITH THIS HIGH-HANDED THEORETICAL SPEECH, SO TRY APPROACHING A THEORY THE CORRECT WAY I.D. REAL, HARD DATA. EVEN PHILOSOPHY WOULD HAVE A CLEAR, DEFINITE LOGIC TO IT. YOU DON'T GET ANYWHERE IF YOU CAN'T BACK IT UP.



Yeah that was a reasonable response,But Im not going to supply proof of my knowledge sense knowledge is relative.I got it from somewhere,whether that is correct doesnt matter,As this is a theoretical thread yes?
I threw in my two cents nothing has to permanent sense things we know,are more then likely wrong.Its not like everything is obviously hardwired.like just because your dad likes coffe doesnt mean you will.but some of the brain patterns are the same.I still find my self in certian ways acting like my dad.Not in all ways as Ive inherited alot from mom{non-biological}

Im not really that "high and mighty"
The signature is supposed to encourage progressive thought.instead of sticking to ideals,or lack of them.without weighing them.there is alot you dont decide,such as how you react to things.
Do ever remember making a conscious decision on what you hate/like/are attracted to/what makes you luagh/cry/what tastes good/tastes bad/or even is just ok.

Why do I need references for such basic of scientific study.
{hell the history and science channels aired shows about this subject}

I am Rose Erin.

winkio

hey all, sorry you've never taken a statistics class, but studies don't actually prove anything.  They help support theories, but they don't definitively prove things one way or the other.  Also, Dio has a good point.  At least give us some reason to take you seriously.

36inc

Quote from: winkio on September 29, 2010, 11:43:53 pm
hey all, sorry you've never taken a statistics class, but studies don't actually prove anything.  They help support theories, but they don't definitively prove things one way or the other.  Also, Dio has a good point.  At least give us some reason to take you seriously.

No one has currently linked to anything.
So tell me givin this example of conduct WHY SHOULD I BE SINGLED OUT AS BULLSHIT.

Logicly speaking supporting a theory is pointless sense Knowledge is relative.
Im not a scientist I read random books and watch the science channel
Why do I have to scour the internet for examples of my information when I belief its just a theory and isnt important enough to waste the time.This is supposed to be a listen and learn kinda thing.not a Prove or be scorned.

Grow up people.your too finicky and then you question my questions.
Its not like Im fighting for someones rights.I just gave my two cents.

Wheres your theories hmmm?
And despite whether their backed up they could still be wrong.So its a waste of effort anyway.

Dont you guys know anything about Science?

Make a theory,set it out there, Weigh it and then see if it holds up.

I believe in the Chaos theory.
Which is an established theory.

If you wanna learn about it search it yourself.
I did once dont expect me to do your homework.
I am Rose Erin.

winkio

@36inc:
Spoiler: ShowHide
QuoteLogicly speaking supporting a theory is pointless sense Knowledge is relative.

Nah, you are wrong on this one.  Knowledge is an absolute system of statements, and logical support is a key component of that system.

QuoteWhy do I have to scour the internet for examples of my information when I belief its just a theory and isnt important enough to waste the time.This is supposed to be a listen and learn kinda thing.not a Prove or be scorned.

We are listening, but you aren't learning.  The feedback that we are giving you is that what you are saying is bullshit.  Because it is.  Believe it or not, it is actually possible to form valid arguments while knowing little about the subject matter.  You just haven't done it yet.

QuoteGrow up people.your too finicky and then you question my questions.
Its not like Im fighting for someones rights.I just gave my two cents.

We are saying that your two cents is worth nothing, and then you get all defensive.

QuoteWheres your theories hmmm?
And despite whether their backed up they could still be wrong.So its a waste of effort anyway.

Fuck man, gravity could be wrong, doesn't mean it's a waste of effort.  If we didn't have to fight you every time you posted something, maybe we would share our theories.

QuoteDont you guys know anything about Science?

I've taken many high-level science classes and a class on the philosophy of science.  So in regards to knowing about science, I think that is my advantage over you, not the other way around.

QuoteMake a theory,set it out there, Weigh it and then see if it holds up.

You do a few mental checks to make sure your theory isn't just a half-assed piece of crap before you put it out there.  Then you wouldn't be wasting everyone's time.

QuoteI believe in the Chaos theory.
Which is an established theory.

If you wanna learn about it search it yourself.
I did once dont expect me to do your homework.

Chaos theory is a mathematical field of study, which I happened to study for a few weeks last semester.  If you believe in last semester's math homework, that's fine, but don't get mad at us for calling you a crackpot.


@niche:  electrons flow between atoms all the time.  In fact, in a metal such as iron, the nuclei are just jammed together and the electrons float around.  That's what makes them conductors.  That said, electricity is a very important part of life.  It's the system that allows your brain to control your body, think, and store memories.  In my opinion, the soul, or the human consciousness, as some people would define it, is the set of electrical routines that exist in your brain.

36inc

Quote from: winkio on September 30, 2010, 12:39:32 am
@36inc:
Spoiler: ShowHide
QuoteLogicly speaking supporting a theory is pointless sense Knowledge is relative.

Nah, you are wrong on this one.  Knowledge is an absolute system of statements, and logical support is a key component of that system.

QuoteWhy do I have to scour the internet for examples of my information when I belief its just a theory and isnt important enough to waste the time.This is supposed to be a listen and learn kinda thing.not a Prove or be scorned.

We are listening, but you aren't learning.  The feedback that we are giving you is that what you are saying is bullshit.  Because it is.  Believe it or not, it is actually possible to form valid arguments while knowing little about the subject matter.  You just haven't done it yet.

QuoteGrow up people.your too finicky and then you question my questions.
Its not like Im fighting for someones rights.I just gave my two cents.

We are saying that your two cents is worth nothing, and then you get all defensive.

QuoteWheres your theories hmmm?
And despite whether their backed up they could still be wrong.So its a waste of effort anyway.

Fuck man, gravity could be wrong, doesn't mean it's a waste of effort.  If we didn't have to fight you every time you posted something, maybe we would share our theories.

QuoteDont you guys know anything about Science?

I've taken many high-level science classes and a class on the philosophy of science.  So in regards to knowing about science, I think that is my advantage over you, not the other way around.

QuoteMake a theory,set it out there, Weigh it and then see if it holds up.

You do a few mental checks to make sure your theory isn't just a half-assed piece of crap before you put it out there.  Then you wouldn't be wasting everyone's time.

QuoteI believe in the Chaos theory.
Which is an established theory.

If you wanna learn about it search it yourself.
I did once dont expect me to do your homework.

Chaos theory is a mathematical field of study, which I happened to study for a few weeks last semester.  If you believe in last semester's math homework, that's fine, but don't get mad at us for calling you a crackpot.


@niche:  electrons flow between atoms all the time.  In fact, in a metal such as iron, the nuclei are just jammed together and the electrons float around.  That's what makes them conductors.  That said, electricity is a very important part of life.  It's the system that allows your brain to control your body, think, and store memories.  In my opinion, the soul, or the human consciousness, as some people would define it, is the set of electrical routines that exist in your brain.


Mathematics=science in importance of knowledge
You can take as many classes as you want,But attacking my statments without actualy defining your stance is comparable to similar augments provided by religious speakers.
Not everything I say should be attacked like somehow itll cause the freaken tectonic plates to move.

And Knowledge is pretty relative,You ever hear the term "it doesnt mean shit to a tree"

Whatever we gather can only help us,But its not all important to do so.
You dont have to fight me.Just Dont go attacking the littlest things like children And i would feel defensive.

All my knowledge is acquired through wanting to learn more,not going through school,so if Im wrong.Please elaborate on correcting me.I didnt even go to high school.I just read books and watch educational programs cause it interests me.

It seems like Ignorance comes with forced knowledge while open mindedness is earned.

{Id listen and learn;If the response wasnt just "I CALL BULL"}

Im sure somewhere thats warrented{like in theism)
But someone like me doesnt deserve this kind of response. 
Why is it so hard for you guys to answer me?

I am Rose Erin.

winkio

My stance is that all your arguments (so far) are invalid.  I thought that was clear...

Here's what you don't seem to understand about your arguments: there is no substance.  You are not saying "oh, I observed phenomenon x, so it made me think of explanation y, which seems plausible when supported by evidence z."  You are saying "I think explanation y is right."

For example:
QuoteAnd Knowledge is pretty relative,You ever hear the term "it doesnt mean shit to a tree"

A worthwhile stance would be that knowledge is a human collection of statements that describes the rules and observations of the world that they experience.  It is an absolute structure, partly supported by logic, partly supported by illogical means such as induction and experimentation.  We see this when we examine popular theories such as gravity: there is a collective observation that things fall, there is a rule that we have created partly through induction, and partly through logic, to describe how things fall, and we have carried out many experiments to confirm our theory.

36inc

But its actualy wasted effort on my part cause im no scientist I just take interest so the whole "Bullshit" helps me in no way.

I also have my own way of explanation,it takes the form of seeming absolute.but actualy its quite the opposite,I never believe in more then the two absolutes of life and death.Though death could be categorized as a part of life so then its just "life"

and sense it is knowledge I simply accumulated by whim I niether asked to regarded as a genius whose always right(or even mostly) or an idot who is not right(or mostly).

What I know of the brain fallows in a path im very familiar with.
Instinctive Reactions.
We are just animals after all,and so we have instincts the same.Those instincts could probably make "will" and "emotion" feel unique or even seem like we have control.
Well just like AI you cant have that control with out a system or automatic reactions.
Instincts,this does drive what you want or feel you need.
I believe it is also collective reacting to situation on a certain degree.
If we are under populated We will sleep with our own mothers to gain numbers.
(ive seen this happen in Tigers,chimps,and Whales)

And when were over populated some will engage in less fruitfull sexual rituals,and even have their abiltiies turned off.(such as women who cannot bare children)

Based on material like this,I think we just made up our "soul" because we didnt have a clue about how our brain worked.Which is natural to assume,sense weve done this before with {religion,Science,morals,geography,history,we even guess alot when it comes to simple things.

Not a completely solid theory,but hey Im no scientist,Its just accumulated knowledge.
It can change.So please treat it as such and not just call "bull"
I am Rose Erin.

winkio

By your reasoning, statements are not absolute, thus nothing you say is relevant to anyone else, thus nobody cares. 

I'm fine with the whole pitching random theories, but it's just annoying when they have such obvious flaws.  I mean the Niche actually thought his stuff on the soul out.  True, he is missing some knowledge on atoms and electricity, but he is not making any blatant flaws in his ideas.  You, on the other hand, just seem to ignore reality and just say stuff which honestly seems like you thought of it 10 seconds earlier.

Getting past that, your most recent attempt was closer to valid (hooray!).  This is the good part:
QuoteI think we just made up our "soul" because we didnt have a clue about how our brain worked

That is actually pretty solid.  I like it.

Now, your stuff on instincts is a little less solid.
What you call instincts, economists call human choice, which is that each person will choose what is best for them.  Funny how opposite explanations fit the same data.  See, what bothers me is not that you only stated one view.  What bothers me is that it is a view based on the most shallow of observations.  Maybe, your concept of instincts was just made up because you didn't have a clue how human choice worked?

36inc

September 30, 2010, 02:15:04 am #10 Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 02:18:05 am by 36inc
Does it have to be absalute in order to stand?
If it was an absalute my opinion would be never changing,Destroying the point of arguing

But you see Its collected knowledge Of me not everything is solid,but I dont really have to be do I?
I said you shouldnt pretend like Im some studyholic science enthusiast and no I didnt just think these up.
Humans do have a tendency to believe in collectives and only after others see what a mess it is and point out those flaws,will they know they messed up.
What I said about instincts could probably be better put actualy like this.

I think choice is an illusion of the brain.
you might think your making a decision but in actuality your just examining the content of things and judging it on previously established "likes and "dislikes,that were inherited,or were a contorted inheritance,or instinct.

like when you choose a Mate.
Your already restricted by your linear Sex drive,What turns you on is not a choice.
Then when looking(scientists have found) that your judging them even without thinking about it.your judging them by smell,touch,how they look,and then how they sound.
The study included a focus on straight people but it worked to the same effect when switching roles.
And theyve even found that you judge anothers health without thinking about it.
(Instinctively Idk but it sounds pretty instinctive to me)

though the study also shown that we can also realize when to settle,and that were inherently lazy.
{as shown by the fact that Skinnier wastes(even cartoonist and unhealthily)were deemed more attractive then what is the standard.

So thats what I mean by Instincts.
In actuality its not really a choice at all,seeing how youll just settle if you fail to get the best.
And sense your likes and dislikes arent controlled consciously its safe to assume we dont need a soul in order to survive and still live like we do.
Thats as detailed as my poor english can get me.(used spell check on 50% of these words)
I am Rose Erin.

Blizzard

September 30, 2010, 02:36:10 am #11 Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 02:37:26 am by Blizzard
tldr;

Attraction is not purely based on genetics. People are social animals so social status is important for both male and female. Though, social status is a lot more important to females than genetics while with men it's the other way around.
Yes, what turns you on is not a choice, but it is a choice for the other person to behave the way that can turn you on.

BTW, look up Triune brain theory. Very interesting. It says that our brain has three parts: the reptile brain (pure instinct), the mammal brain (pure emotion) and the intelligent brain (consciousness). It assumes that each brain actually uses the next one for its own goals. e.g. You get flooded with emotions and start acting against logic and do some bullshit. In fact, studies have shown that when being flooded with emotions, your current IQ may drop up to 40 points. That's the effect of not being able to think clearly.
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Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

36inc

Quote from: Blizzard on September 30, 2010, 02:36:10 am
tldr;

Attraction is not purely based on genetics. People are social animals so social status is important for both male and female. Though, social status is a lot more important to females than genetics while with men it's the other way around.
Yes, what turns you on is not a choice, but it is a choice for the other person to behave the way that can turn you on.

BTW, look up Triune brain theory. Very interesting. It says that our brain has three parts: the reptile brain (pure instinct), the mammal brain (pure emotion) and the intelligent brain (consciousness). It assumes that each brain actually uses the next one for its own goals. e.g. You get flooded with emotions and start acting against logic and do some bullshit. In fact, studies have shown that when being flooded with emotions, your current IQ may drop up to 40 points. That's the effect of not being able to think clearly.


Social communication is instinctive.(even a recluse like myself)gains possitives from conversation,Status is important but I never said it was the sole reason for our behavior.

I simply said that our automatic features set up the illusion that we make some kind of choice when were really just filtering out things based on our preconceptions of attraction and wants.
which we have no control over.And thanks for not insulting my intelligence. thats a good example of conduct between intelligent beings conversing on theories and speculations.
And I will look it up thanks.
I am Rose Erin.

Blizzard

September 30, 2010, 03:34:37 am #13 Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 03:37:54 am by Blizzard
Actually, social communication and behavior can be learned. It's a combination of subcommunication via body language and voice tone with verbal communication where the ratios are 70%, 23% and 7%. If you literally spend a month watching people's nonverbal communication a lot, you will become better in social communication. It's a skill. As with every skill, there are people who are talented at it to begin with and people who have no clue. But everybody can learn it.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

36inc

Actualy i wasnt being sarcastic i was being literal.
And I never said you couldnt learn to do things.
and I never said automatic setting of the brain couldnt be ignored or even trianed.
cause they can.Dogs are a good show of this.We can train them out of habits.

You assuming that my post was a sarcasm shows lack of trust in character.
I take back my applauding.you can now go sit with the few who continually attack my posts as if I caused a Holocaust.

(And again my faith in humanity ever learning civility in simple question and answer situations dropps even lower)

Im actually not very sarcastic Im a blunt insulter.If i was to call you uncivil id do it literally more often then not.

Lets try this again,you were almost there.

Those things are training methods,And theres a reason simply telling someone to change their behavior wont work.We have little choice in the matter.
If we like cupcakes and tried to force ourselves not to eat those cupcakes,We'd have to try pretty hard depending on how important cupcakes are too you.

So choice could still vary well be an illusion kind of in the same way that beauty is.
Its simply not the way we see it.

After all you need a base of radical auto-matic set ups to allow for even the illusion of complex thoughts and choices.
So it makes sense to think our brains work similar just with different components and values.
So what purpose ,and what would a soul be for?
our emotions,our logic,our abilities and many more,have alot of auto-matic settings.yeah that can be trained,but never the less still auto-matic,uncontrolable things exist within us.and work us through our days.It even shows us a movie when we sleep at night.You cant force a dream.

For me this knowledge is all that I need to think "well why a soul?"
Do we really need one to be?
What is it?
How do you know it even is there?
I think we dont have souls,I think we are conscious in the same way our computors will be in the future (cause current computers are said to be only as smart as cockroaches)
I am Rose Erin.

Blizzard

Eh, I don't know if you read the first version of my post, because I misread something in yours so I changed my response afterwards. Just letting you know.
Check out Daygames and our games:

King of Booze 2      King of Booze: Never Ever
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

36inc

Quote from: Blizzard on September 30, 2010, 04:05:04 am
Eh, I don't know if you read the first version of my post, because I misread something in yours so I changed my response afterwards. Just letting you know.


ah okies.Ok you can sit back in the corner of civility again.
Thats better.
I am Rose Erin.

Blizzard

September 30, 2010, 02:13:01 pm #17 Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 02:15:10 pm by Blizzard
Quote from: 36inc on September 30, 2010, 04:11:53 am
ah okies.Ok you can sit back in the corner of civility again.
Thats better.


Why are you being so condescending? I apologized that I misread your post and changed my post accordingly. I understand if you don't want to edit your immediate response afterwards, but keeping on being condescending after that does not make you look really good or mature.
Check out Daygames and our games:

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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Spaceman McConaughey

Might I just add, 36inc, that you try to sound really knowledgeable in the things you "know", but it comes out all wrong.

Meh, it IS the internet. We try and make ourselves out to be way smarter than we actually are(at least, most of us do.).

36inc

Huh? I didnt start this topic?
this was niches topic.

And I dont try to sound knowledgeable.
i admit defeat when wrong.But no one states how im wrong,they just mindlessly,and childishly,tell me Im wrong,without showing me my errors.

Atleast Im not pretending to be smarter by avoiding my questions like all you have.

Side from blizz,he actually conversed.Normaly.
I am Rose Erin.