I don't want to be disrespectful and if you're frustrated by this debate I don't want to goad you on.
But I really want to respond to a few points; feel free to ignore them, respond to them, or not even read them.
Quote from: ForeverZer0 on December 12, 2013, 11:04:43 pm
Capitalism is without refute the most successful system humanity has ever seen. Period.
And so was Feudalism before that, and despotism before that. Human existence is a progression of methods of social organization. I see us somewhere early in the timeline of these methods. Thinking that Capitalism will continue forever is as unrealistic as thinking that tribal shamanic hegemony would continue forever.
Quote from: ForeverZer0 on December 12, 2013, 11:04:43 pm
Human beings are flawed, therefore a system that is all about equality and selflessness will always fail.
Capitalism and the free market makes the assumption that everyone will play by the rules. If people don't (i.e. bankers, stockbrokers, regulators, legislators, taxpayers, corporations) the system erodes and fails to fully perform its function. Hence the fact that we are hit by recession after recession, we pollute the planet terribly, legislators can be bought and sold - and the policies they espouse seldom represent the bulk of their constituents, over 20% of children in the U.S. go to bed each night malnourished and hungry...
Quote from: ForeverZer0 on December 12, 2013, 11:04:43 pm
Human beings are not selfless, and as far as "deserving of money", not equal in the slightest degree.
All human beings don't have to be selfless for us to live in an egalitarian society. It's very difficult to be a decent human being if your basic needs of shelter, food, and companionship, are not being met. No one is claiming that all human beings "deserve money", but because our level of technology is easily capable of providing all humans with their basic needs, logically it is in our best interest as a species, to meet the needs of everyone. We don't need to just hand out money to everyone, we just need to provide them with food, shelter, and the opportunity to meet their full human potential. It's easy to go to a slum, get mugged, and say that the people there are shitty people. The fact is they are desperate, and their needs aren't being met, they are undereducated, and angry.
Quote from: ForeverZer0 on December 12, 2013, 11:04:43 pm
The answers an history to prove it are available for all to see, and yet it is still ignored, so nothing I say here will matter, and people will just continue to believe what they believe. Its as pointless as arguing religion.
It is easy to read history selectively to support your thesis. Assuming that a completely objective reality exists, I honestly don't know if I personally have drawn a conclusion from my studies that is close to that reality. That being said, history has shown ad infinitum that capitalism leads to the exploitation of many for the benefit of the few. The pursuit of wealth has been perhaps the most destructive force in the history of civilization. Think about the Slave Trade, the complete raping of central America by the conquistadors, the genocide of the American Indians, and the recent sub-prime mortgage induced economic collapse.
The advancements in human being's quality of living are not due to capitalism, but are due to advances in technology. Refrigeration, Vaccines, Electricity, do not depend upon capitalism to exist. You could possibly convince me that capitalism motivated researches to discover these marvels, but you could not then convince me that we now need capitalism to maintain them.
Alright I've exhausted my arsenal of responses for now; hopefully someone else will take up the torch and defend the prospect of humans having the potential to be truly civilized.