So, I know Voltaire already devasted this argument, but what is human existence? What are we?
I realized something tonight. People say that there can never be true A.I. because it will always lack emotion... but what is emotion? Is it not just a figment of homeostasis, a flux in our thoughts that causes us to react, a flag raised at the sight of a stimuli? In that context, do computers not already have emotions...?
Do you know what?
I only feel like I'm real. I see through my eyes, feel through my body, can't feel anyone else's minds, thoughts feelings...
I think That's called autism.
Oh, by the way, do this: Put your arm and someone else's arm together, and rub both at once. Feels so weird... right?
I'm not autistic. I'm not limited. I have the same sense you do.
My point is: are they just... senses?
Interesting subject...
It's funny, I was just reading an article about the possibilities of making true artificial intelligence, and how reverse engineering the brain can shed light into how we can achieve this.
I don't have it anymore to refer to. >->
How in the world can someone reverse engineer a human brain!?
You use a decompiler and you read the source code that comes out of it. :V:
... ... ...LMAO!!
Lol, this is kind-of like the discussion i was having with one of my friends about building a "Maybe" library :D
Oh, due tell...
QuoteHow in the world can someone reverse engineer a human brain!?
Maybe I should have said "reverse engineer" in inverted commas. Although they just wanted to sound spiffy. Like it was all so inevitable to figure out. :|
Really, they're just planning to map it all out at extreme detail. And use up a couple of billion terabytes at it. ^-^
LOL at shdwlink's answer. :haha: <333
Anyways, back on topic - I remember the article vaguely saying that they found out that the consciousness didn't have a significant physical manifestation in the brain. KEYWORD HERE BEING
VAGUELY...
We are just like other animals. Just more developed. Other animals have emotions, reactions from events that stimulate or relax some chemicals in the brain...I suppose. All I'm saying is assumption-based so pardon me if it's wrong. But regardless, we're just like all the other animals in the world, just that our brains are more complex and intelligent than those fellows. Therefore, that's how we have all those technological awesomeness. :)
True Artificial Intelligence? That's quite hard to make as everything can be limitless. We can go so far, but yet we can't even reach to the end. And I don't even think we should create true artificial intelligence. Eventually one day that product or robot is going to turn on us and become useless or dangerous. :/
Excellent response from SRK. Way better than when I say crap without proof to back it up. I usually go the opposite way and end up looking like an idiot. Not saying that what you said was crap, but that's the right way to handle stating an assumption :)
And yeah, there's a theory that the human brain is quantum entangled. Which means, in layman terms, that it has the potential to process information faster than anything we've ever seen before.
Of course, computers may make humans look rather slow, but consider the fact that they're usually only repeating given instructions, instructions that are specifically stripped of anything unneeded.
That's way easier than the human brain processing a few million different factors at a time, and trying to figure out what logic parts we should be using by parsing through frequencies and stored memories. We're actually incredibly fast when you consider that.
QuoteWe can go so far, but yet we can't even reach to the end.
= asymptote.
*has done too much maths at school*
QuoteEventually one day that product or robot is going to turn on us and become useless or dangerous. :/
Hear hear. :|
QuoteAnd yeah, there's a theory that the human brain is quantum entangled. Which means, in layman terms, that it has the potential to process information faster than anything we've ever seen before.
Of course, computers may make humans look rather slow, but consider the fact that they're usually only repeating given instructions, instructions that are specifically stripped of anything unneeded.
That's way easier than the human brain processing a few million different factors at a time, and trying to figure out what logic parts we should be using by parsing through frequencies and stored memories. We're actually incredibly fast when you consider that.
Yes, and the fact that the mere mapping of a human brain (i wonder whose they'll pick XD) will take billions of dollars and terabytes also supports this. I think in reality if we were to make a human brain (which performs all functions equally to us) it would either be HUUUUGE or we wouldn't see it until quantum computing has been around for another 876823 years.
I agree with SRK. Creating a true artifical intelligence would cause problems. When a robot becomes sentient and starts asking about what his purpose in life is, this is pretty much a path to doom.
The human brain is a lot faster than a computer CPU, we just don't notice it. Imagine an operation like this. Let's sum up 2 numbers with 5 digits each. A computer does that in a nanosecond because the representation is already in a format that the computer can understand and process easily: electrical charge. When a human, though, gets a pen, a piece of paper and the task at hand written on paper, why does it take so long to sum up those two numbers? It's simple. There is an incredible vast amount of operations going on here. Your eyes perceive the information on the paper. The information gets transmitted to the brain where the image is being processed completely. As the brains knows how to read numbers represented graphically, it needs to decipher what is written on the paper which is a matter of miliseconds even if the handwriting is bad. How long do you think it takes a computer to "read" an image? In fact if we actually get so advanced with computers that we are able to develop a program that can "read", it will take a whole lot of time. Let's get back to the brain. What else does it do in the meantime? There are loads of other operations like breath control, heart control, monitoring everything in the body, releasing of stimulants and hormons, controlling eye movement to get more images for processing, etc. Now the actual summing up of the numbers is on an icredibly high level of processing an hence it is slower. It's the same when you sum up two numbers using a high-level scripting language and pure assembler or machine instructions. The representation of those numbers in our brains is still graphical and partial abstract. So we're actually doing summing up two images in a logical sense and not just summing up two electrical charges like a aritmentical-logical unit. Not just that, we imagine the look of the result before we actually write it down. We also think about quite a number of different things during that time what can "decrease the concentration". Let's say you're hungry. It will affect your ability to calculate so that you want to hurry it up and make a stupid mistake that way.
The reason for all this is they way our brain works. While a computer works in a serial way, processing instruction by instruction and has only 2 dimensional processing (conductors and semi-conductors on chips) while the human brain processes stuff parallely and in a 3-dimensional manner. Neurons are connected in all directions with other neurons and each neuron can work as a separate unit hence 3-dimensional and prallelel processing is possible. Also the redundancy creates a very error proof system. Imagine a neuron dies. So what? Who cares? There are billions of them, one doesn't make a difference. But what if just one processing unit in a CPU dies? Well, everything's down.
This pretty much shows that a decentralized system like a neuron network, where each part and each neuron has a special task that it is assigned to, is far more powerful than a CPU which processes everything. It's true that a computer CPU is much more capable and powerful than a single neuron, but a billion neurons will always beat one single CPU. Maybe even just 1000 neurons are enough to beat a normal CPU.
You think computers are smarter than humans? Think again!
Ah, me and my close friend used to discuss this and similar subjects for hours. Good old days... Anyway, emotion. Before we even go to emotion, what is consciousness? What is that sense of self among us that gives the very convincing effect (or illusion maybe?) that we "exist"? I think the answer is pretty abstract. Anyway, if we asume for the moment that all emotions are a set range of states that include the pattern of electrical signals in our brain, then even today's computers have "emotions", but they're way too different from the nature of our own enotions, so we probably don't comprehend them. Then there is the issue of complexity. Everything in computers is totally controlled by us. Managing 32 bits gives so
many possibilities and we can build systems much more complex than one would think possible with those 32 bits. Consider the human brain. Not just the brain, even the body (since it is through the body the brain takes in information). Our brain is
so complex and is
very fast. Blizz described this point in the above post. Basically, we might form an idea as to the complexity of our emotions and consciousness, but the consciousness might be "hiding" the true complexity of our brain. This is one of the core concepts in my game too: Our consciousness limits our power. We're talking about a system which is amazingly complex, and I believe understanding such a system to its complete extent is virtually impossible.
That was about emotion and stuff. Now, for the "existance" part. I'd say we exist. The whole feeling of physical reality might be an illusion, but the mere fact that we are even aware of ourselves proves that we "exist". But then, what "does not exist"? Think about it. As far as I know, there's no such thing. EVERYTHING exists at the very primal level. Okay, so a Ferrari in my garage doesn't exist. But the idea, the thought "Ferrari in my garage", it exists in my head, doesn't it? At least during the time when I typed those words out? Of course, it all depends on what you
define to be a "Ferrari in my garage".
QuoteHow long do you think it takes a computer to "read" an image? In fact if we actually get so advanced with computers that we are able to develop a program that can "read", it will take a whole lot of time.
I was gonna say that >8U
The part about existence is what I mentioned under abstract thinking. Humans are able to imagine something that is beyond existence. Abstract thinking is a sign of intelligence and self-awareness.
Ehh... I haven't spent that much time thinking over this, FTS, but great point :) I like the concept of meditation; conscious sleep. Of course, that wouldn't be as much sleep as self-induced coma, but then again, that's not completely right either.
And I hate how whenever we try hard to think something, we're actually clotting up the process with the "Come on, what is it!"s.
Blizzard's post makes me feel so smart.... :haha: It also reminds me how sometimes it takes my calculator several seconds to deal with stuff like multiple fractions and brackets. Where there are some people who can solve any maths problem almost instantly. Obviously the human brain has the capacity to do so, because I'm pretty sure theirs isn't structurally significantly different to a dummy's.
Fantasist has a deep point about definitions. A lot of philosophers debate over this. It has a name, but I forgot.
As a related side-note: ever hear of solipsism? (I think that's how it's spelt)
Quote from: Reno-s--Joker on February 03, 2009, 02:25:43 am
As a related side-note: ever hear of solipsism? (I think that's how it's spelt)
QuoteSolipsism (Latin: solus, alone + ipse, self) is the philosophical idea that "My mind is the only thing that I know exists." Solipsism is an epistemological or ontological position that knowledge of anything outside the mind is unjustified. The external world and other minds cannot be known and might not exist. In the history of philosophy, solipsism has served as a skeptical hypothesis.
Oh dear...Oh dear...this seriously reminds me of another topic we just discussed.
http://forum.chaos-project.com/index.php?topic=2674.0
I think that can sum up "Solipsism" well enough. :P
Actually, that's very true. I wasn't aware of it. :|
But I thought that some of the ideas in solipsism might be relevant to the definition of a human's existence. I guess assuming you think that humans are the only intelligent creatures with conscious 'mind' thought like us. Our distinction from other animals plays a huge part in this debate too, I think.
LOL I love messing with my friends' heads, pretending I am some random device their mind has conceived to tell them they are the only thing existent. See how bored I am? :haha:
Quote from: fugibo on February 01, 2009, 09:40:27 pm
So, I know Voltaire already devasted this argument, but what is human existence? What are we?
I realized something tonight. People say that there can never be true A.I. because it will always lack emotion... but what is emotion? Is it not just a figment of homeostasis, a flux in our thoughts that causes us to react, a flag raised at the sight of a stimuli? In that context, do computers not already have emotions...?
These kind of conversations are what hold the balance of life in order, and then also are what create the biggest wars known to man; needless to say, there really isn't a defined answer for this question.
No matter what opinions, facts, or really any input into this conversation; the fact of the matter is this... we are human, all things we do are human, and humans are what created all things in the first place.
Now, obviously there is more to life that what meets the eye; there most likely is something else out there that we just don't know about... but in any state, we are living in a world in which everything human is only re-created and re-produced by humans.
If humans didn't exist, how would the world be without us on it?
If humans didn't exist, how would the universe end up?
Honestly, I don't know too much... nor do I even think I know anything at all, but I do know that there really isn't a correct or incorrect answer to any question.