Chaos Project

General => Chat => Intelligent Debate => Topic started by: tSwitch on February 02, 2009, 09:55:45 am

Title: Proof
Post by: tSwitch on February 02, 2009, 09:55:45 am
Prove to me that you exist.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Fantasist on February 02, 2009, 09:59:20 am
Depends on how you define "exists".

Anyway, this post should prove to you that I exist.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: tSwitch on February 02, 2009, 10:13:00 am
Quote from: Fantasist on February 02, 2009, 09:59:20 am
Depends on how you define "exists".

Anyway, this post should prove to you that I exist.


unfortunately, it does not.
it lacks vital information that proves to me that you, in fact, exist.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Blizzard on February 02, 2009, 10:21:34 am
Observe my effect on anything connected to you. Your observation will show that I affect my environment even if it's in a very small manner. That observation proves my existence.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: tSwitch on February 02, 2009, 10:23:15 am
Quote from: Blizzard on February 02, 2009, 10:21:34 am
Observe my effect on anything connected to you. Your observation will show that I affect my environment even if it's in a very small manner. That observation proves my existence.


unfortunately, no it does not.
an illusion can appear to affect the environment, yet an illusion does not exist.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Blizzard on February 02, 2009, 10:26:41 am
An illusion can exist in your head. Just because it doesn't exist outside, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. In fact an illusion can't not exist. An illusion is at worst case electrical currents in your and at best case a halucination or optical illusion. Just because it's not what it seems, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's just not what it seems.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: tSwitch on February 02, 2009, 10:29:54 am
Quote from: Blizzard on February 02, 2009, 10:26:41 am
An illusion can exist in your head. Just because it doesn't exist outside, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. In fact an illusion can't not exist. An illusion is at worst case electrical currents in your and at best case a halucination or optical illusion. Just because it's not what it seems, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's just not what it seems.


an illusion, by its very nature, doesn't truly exist, just as a mirage.
In fact, I could be alone inside an illusionary world, and all of you could simply be facets of the illusion.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Blizzard on February 02, 2009, 10:57:06 am
As I said in IRC, I am taking my leave from this topic. xD
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: legacyblade on February 02, 2009, 11:43:19 am
These topics give me a headache x_x

There, the fact that I have a headache proves that I exist. Ok, so I can never prove I'm not a dream (and all the ladies would disagree if you said I'm not a dream :V). But seriously, why do people even wonder if they, or others exist. As far as our ability to prove goes, we exist. If we don't exist, well one day you're going to wake up to find what reality truly is, but as long as you're in this dream why not accept that it is, for all intents and purposes, reality, and spend time pondering more useful things, like what your going to eat. (that's more useful than pondering whether or not you exist :P).

Besides, blizzard is a god, he has to exist :P
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Starrodkirby86 on February 02, 2009, 11:48:50 am
Quote from: NAMKCOR on February 02, 2009, 09:55:45 am
Prove to me that you exist.
All right, I'll be at your house tomorrow, how does that sound?

I can't prove I'm right here because you're just going to have paranoia no matter what. Man, why can't you be trusting? :=:
Unless I can get photos or a camera or something, but regardless, your paranoia will kick in...and it's just going to be useless arguments. >_>;
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: tSwitch on February 02, 2009, 11:52:42 am
Quote from: legacyblade on February 02, 2009, 11:43:19 am
But seriously, why do people even wonder if they, or others exist.


for fun

Quote from: Starrodkirby86 on February 02, 2009, 11:48:50 am
Quote from: NAMKCOR on February 02, 2009, 09:55:45 am
Prove to me that you exist.
All right, I'll be at your house tomorrow, how does that sound?

I can't prove I'm right here because you're just going to have paranoia no matter what. Man, why can't you be trusting? :=:
Unless I can get photos or a camera or something, but regardless, your paranoia will kick in...and it's just going to be useless arguments. >_>;


you can show up wherever you want and do whatever you want, however it still won't prove to me that you exist.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Blizzard on February 02, 2009, 02:46:53 pm
What if he hits you with a stick hurts you? *has lied with the leaving := *
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: G_G on February 02, 2009, 05:49:13 pm
I'm real! I have two pictures posted in Post a picture of yourself thread. I can post more too!
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Hellfire Dragon on February 02, 2009, 05:54:00 pm
What if those 2 pictures are extremely well made photoshopped images? :o

Questions, questions, questions... there's so many that have no answer...

I'd say it'd be hard to prove we exist... I'll think about it and get back to you on that (if you exist :P ) ;)
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Starrodkirby86 on February 02, 2009, 06:15:28 pm
Quote from: game_guy on February 02, 2009, 05:49:13 pm
I'm real! I have two pictures posted in Post a picture of yourself thread. I can post more too!
I can counter argue and say how can you literally prove that you're him? You might have gotten some random guy's Myspace picture.

Seriously, I can say I was this fellow and would you believe me? Maybe.
Spoiler: ShowHide
(http://www.archaeology.ugent.be/preproto/images/guy.jpg)


Point being, you can just get any image and say that's you. The only thing we can do to believe is with trust or knowing the person in real life, which means the easiest way of proof is really, "seeing is believing", unfortunately.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: fugibo on February 02, 2009, 06:32:50 pm
NAMK, this is a silly question. When you say "you" without defining it, it automatically refers to your perception of me. Therefore, if you are reading this, the word "you" refers to the sentience that originated this message (at least, I think it does) and therefore, it is inevitable that *"you" exists.

Why? Because even if this reality is just your dream, then you wrote this, and you exist. If it's my dream, I wrote this, and I exist.

If noone exists to dream this, then we are the null. We are still a sentience, even if there is no sentience.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: winkio on February 02, 2009, 06:41:00 pm
To make my point:

Prove to yourself that I don't exist.

If neither of us can make a solid proof, then this question is null and void.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: fugibo on February 02, 2009, 06:47:02 pm
winkio is a bot. Done.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: G_G on February 02, 2009, 07:01:23 pm
I can make a video and upload it on youtube. What now bitches! I CAN SAY ITS GAME GUY OFF OF CHAOS PROJECT WHAT NOW!
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Starrodkirby86 on February 02, 2009, 07:04:28 pm
Quote from: game_guy on February 02, 2009, 07:01:23 pm
I can make a video and upload it on youtube. What now bitches! I CAN SAY ITS GAME GUY OFF OF CHAOS PROJECT WHAT NOW!
I can easily say that's just your friend, or someone else doing that. You ever heard of signs on Gaia Online? Well, it's something similar. You can just tell your Internet friend to say, "This is game_guy from Chaos Project," and upload it as a video. It's just some paranoia thing I have that makes everything go what if here and there.

This argument is pointless, but fun. :D
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: shdwlink1993 on February 02, 2009, 07:09:36 pm
The correct answer, NAMK, is that your existence has been nothing but a fabrication. A lie perpetrated by the Dystopia Project, headed by a research AI called Blizzard, who attempted to see what would happen if the world was an unfair, segregated place run by biased, unfair people capable of making mistakes. To do this, he took the mind of a 385 year old AI and inserted it into a virtual world. The intelligence expanded and eventually was drawn (due to subliminal messages) onto an internet forum run by Blizzard under the moniker of NAMKOR.

Everyone else you know or thought you knew is either an AI programmed by Blizzard, a coworker of Blizzard's posing as a person, Blizzard, or, in my case, a hacker who broke into the system to send you this dire warning. They'll come to wipe your memory and restart the project now that I've told you, of course, but it's a setback to them that White Rose needs to have happen. I'm sorry. My recommendation is that you start running now. If you stall them long enough, our technicians can find enough bugs in the physics and graphics engines to crash the Virtualization Program that Microsoft made. Good luck.

PS: That cake you ate five minutes ago? LIE!

PPS to Blizzard: We will find you, and we will EMP the heck out of you. It's only a matter of time before we complete the recursion algorithm. :evil:

...

Back to reality! :haha:

You want everyone to prove to you that they exist. There is no way that anyone does not exist. If they are really part of some AI, then they exist as programming in a computer database somewhere. If the universe is a figment of your imagination, then we exist in your mind (scary thought, ain't it?). If some form of magic made everyone appear, then we exist as formed magical energies. If this forum is where the dead go to post their thoughts, and we are, by extension, all dead, then we still exist, because otherwise our consciousnesses wouldn't exist and be able to post here. See the point? The question does not compute.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: G_G on February 02, 2009, 07:37:23 pm
Quote from: shdwlink1993 on February 02, 2009, 07:09:36 pm
The correct answer, NAMK, is that your existence has been nothing but a fabrication. A lie perpetrated by the Dystopia Project, headed by a research AI called Blizzard, who attempted to see what would happen if the world was an unfair, segregated place run by biased, unfair people capable of making mistakes. To do this, he took the mind of a 385 year old AI and inserted it into a virtual world. The intelligence expanded and eventually was drawn (due to subliminal messages) onto an internet forum run by Blizzard under the moniker of NAMKOR.

Everyone else you know or thought you knew is either an AI programmed by Blizzard, a coworker of Blizzard's posing as a person, Blizzard, or, in my case, a hacker who broke into the system to send you this dire warning. They'll come to wipe your memory and restart the project now that I've told you, of course, but it's a setback to them that White Rose needs to have happen. I'm sorry. My recommendation is that you start running now. If you stall them long enough, our technicians can find enough bugs in the physics and graphics engines to crash the Virtualization Program that Microsoft made. Good luck.

PS: That cake you ate five minutes ago? LIE!

PPS to Blizzard: We will find you, and we will EMP the heck out of you. It's only a matter of time before we complete the recursion algorithm. :evil:

...

Back to reality! :haha:

You want everyone to prove to you that they exist. There is no way that anyone does not exist. If they are really part of some AI, then they exist as programming in a computer database somewhere. If the universe is a figment of your imagination, then we exist in your mind (scary thought, ain't it?). If some form of magic made everyone appear, then we exist as formed magical energies. If this forum is where the dead go to post their thoughts, and we are, by extension, all dead, then we still exist, because otherwise our consciousnesses wouldn't exist and be able to post here. See the point? The question does not compute.


A few things
1) shdwlink: Huh?
2) Ok I've been hearing/seeing/reading that cake is a lie. I don't get it is it from a movie or something?
3) This topic is like trying to fight with Ulta and actually beleiving you can win but end up not winning because this is a CHEAP CHEATING TOPIC!
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Starrodkirby86 on February 02, 2009, 07:45:56 pm
Quote from: game_guy on February 02, 2009, 07:37:23 pm
2) Ok I've been hearing/seeing/reading that cake is a lie. I don't get it is it from a movie or something?
3) This topic is like trying to fight with Ulta and actually beleiving you can win but end up not winning because this is a CHEAP CHEATING TOPIC!

2) It's from the game Portal. If you haven't heard about it, it's from the Orange Box. If you haven't heard about THAT, shame on you for not knowing about one of the most well-known games on the Xbox 360.
3) Not exactly. Maybe NAMK will give in, despite his persistence. But indeed this thread is very one-sided and useless. However it has its fun. Now prove the fun of this thread! :V:
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Diokatsu on February 02, 2009, 07:47:03 pm
What a stupid topic. Prove to me I don't. Prove to me it matters. How about bringing a relevant topic to the table. This bullshit I'm seeing in this area could only be the work of arrogant people trying to make some sort of wave of discussion. This question doesn't even have any sides, smart one. It's debate, not spew random ideas. Both this and WcW's "Human Existence?" are utterly hypothetical. This isn't a philosophy board. This is for actual ideas that have definite and real sides. If you disagree with me, Blizz, then change this from Debate to Discussion. Otherwise this thread has no jurisdiction here. Or, bring back things like "Animal Rights", "Contemporary Technology, boon or bane?", and "Global Warming" so that this board doesn't become a cluster of random and inconclusive thought.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: fugibo on February 02, 2009, 07:52:40 pm
I stop listening to posts after "this topic is stupid;" no topic is stupid, only opinions on it.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Diokatsu on February 02, 2009, 08:00:56 pm
Quote from: WcW on February 02, 2009, 07:52:40 pm
I stop listening to posts after "this topic is stupid;" no topic is stupid, only opinions on it.


Maybe that explains your thread of the same nature. You don't get why it is stupid, and yes, stupid is a legitimate word. Try looking at what I'm trying to say without dismissing it off the bat. "Stupid" actually means something, it's not just some "mean" word that people who "don't understand you" use. The word stupid would mean that the said noun is "lacking intelligence". Don't give me bullshit on why this topic isn't stupid by justifying it with your "only opinions are". The topic doesn't even belong here in the first place. That was my point.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: G_G on February 02, 2009, 09:17:09 pm
I figured out how to prove that I fucking exist! Get class photos/yearbooks they have names under the pictures what now!
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Starrodkirby86 on February 02, 2009, 09:40:27 pm
Heh, getting there man, you're one step closer. Two things why this may not work.

1) Other people can be named that. Giant coincidence. If that's not the case, you could have Photoshopped the Picture on the Yearbook (Here's the paranoia kicking in).
2) We don't know your real name. I don't want you to say it here of course, but if NAMK knows your real name and it corresponds with the ID in the yearbook, then everything will be satisfactory.

I found an easy way to get yourself existing. After you said your "real name" and "picture", register yourself as a sex offender. Then it'll be online, engraved in ASCII, and you can prove you exist. :) :V:
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: tSwitch on February 02, 2009, 10:02:08 pm
Quote from: Diokatsu on February 02, 2009, 07:47:03 pm
What a stupid topic. Prove to me I don't.


I can't prove to you that you don't exist, just as you can't prove to me that you do.

Quote from: Diokatsu on February 02, 2009, 07:47:03 pm
Prove to me it matters.  How about bringing a relevant topic to the table. This bullshit I'm seeing in this area could only be the work of arrogant people trying to make some sort of wave of discussion. This question doesn't even have any sides, smart one. It's debate, not spew random ideas. Both this and WcW's "Human Existence?" are utterly hypothetical. This isn't a philosophy board. This is for actual ideas that have definite and real sides. If you disagree with me, Blizz, then change this from Debate to Discussion. Otherwise this thread has no jurisdiction here. Or, bring back things like "Animal Rights", "Contemporary Technology, boon or bane?", and "Global Warming" so that this board doesn't become a cluster of random and inconclusive thought.


if you don't think it matters, don't post here, I'd appreciate if you'd stop ranting, thanks.

Game_guy, SRK, WcW, shdwlink, you're all missing the point.
all of your proof can be easily fabricated illusion, in fact this entire world could be an illusion.

I'll end this, as it will no doubt descend into flame.

there is one single correct answer, and that is this
there is no way to prove 100% that anyone or anything exists.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Fallen Angel X on February 02, 2009, 10:08:09 pm
On the contrary, if an illusion is our existence, that illusion in itself exists. And you acknowledged that. Therefore I exist as an illusion. Which means I exist in some form. And you can't say it's an illusion of an illusion b/c that's not really an arguement O.o

The fact that there is no void of nothingness proves that something exists. When I'm dead, I'll tell you whether or not this truly is an illusion or not but regardless, it's fact that we exist.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: tSwitch on February 02, 2009, 10:41:27 pm
Quote from: Fallen Angel X on February 02, 2009, 10:08:09 pm
On the contrary, if an illusion is our existence, that illusion in itself exists. And you acknowledged that. Therefore I exist as an illusion. Which means I exist in some form. And you can't say it's an illusion of an illusion b/c that's not really an arguement O.o

The fact that there is no void of nothingness proves that something exists. When I'm dead, I'll tell you whether or not this truly is an illusion or not but regardless, it's fact that we exist.


illusion, by its very nature, does not truly exist.
see: fight club.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: G_G on February 02, 2009, 10:48:07 pm
>.> I dont get this. But I started thinking.

What if we're just a dream. A figment of one's imagination. A whole world created no thought of by one mind. And slowly s/he is increasing the intelligince we have and make more problems of the world. More wars, more terrorists, more technology. Maybe s/he'll cause the end of the world when s/he is bored of this world and makes a new one.

Who knows. Maybe s/he is the truth behind all of the science and math. All the theory's made by the famous scientists. Maybe s/he is fate itself. Who knows and who can prove it honestly.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Blizzard on February 03, 2009, 06:33:06 am
To solve up this topic...

As some of you already noticed, the question on itself is a paradox. You can't prove to somebody else that you exist. If you are actually able to prove it, but you don't exist, your proof is actually void. As NAMK quoted Descartes in IRC "I think, therefore I am", to yourself it's obvious that you exist and you can prove it to yourself. But you can't prove to yourself that somebody else exists and neither can somebody else prove that (s)he exists. It's a paradox in itself.

Of course everything exists. The problems is just that it may not exist in a form we perceive. A halucination exists as chemical reaction and electricity in your brain. It's not what it seems to be, but it exists. That means that every illusion actually exists simply because of the fact that you can perceive it. What can't be proven is the form of existence. As I said, an illusion can't prove that it's real, but it does exist in some form, it's just not what it seems to be. Everything that can affect you exists, but the problem is the definition of existence and the form it exists in. Even faith into a god exists. It doesn't make a god exist, but it does affect you and your way of thinking so the faith exists. In the end it's about the definition of existence after all.

I'll leave this thread here as it seems that it's going into a discussion about existence rather than answering that stupid question from the beginning of the thread. I think that's what NAMK intended to happen. xD
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: tSwitch on February 03, 2009, 10:49:18 am
take existence as truth
an illusion, by its nature, is falsity, a lie.
a lie is the opposite of the truth
ergo an illusion is the opposite of existence

actually, Blizz, the point of the topic, was to see if anyone could figure out that there IS no way.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Blizzard on February 03, 2009, 11:30:55 am
I know. That's what I said, didn't I? I just find it ironic that actually everything "exists" in some form, even if it's just an illusion in your head, but there's no way to prove it, lol!
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Diokatsu on February 03, 2009, 05:31:40 pm
What creates your illusion?
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: G_G on February 03, 2009, 05:40:22 pm
Quote from: game_guy on February 02, 2009, 10:48:07 pm
>.> I dont get this. But I started thinking.

What if we're just a dream. A figment of one's imagination. A whole world created no thought of by one mind. And slowly s/he is increasing the intelligince we have and make more problems of the world. More wars, more terrorists, more technology. Maybe s/he'll cause the end of the world when s/he is bored of this world and makes a new one.

Who knows. Maybe s/he is the truth behind all of the science and math. All the theory's made by the famous scientists. Maybe s/he is fate itself. Who knows and who can prove it honestly.


I still think this is the case. Even if there is no way to say we exist I still think we're a figment of one's imagination.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Diokatsu on February 03, 2009, 08:38:24 pm
Something exists. It might not be any of us, but somewhere something does exist.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: tSwitch on February 03, 2009, 11:32:37 pm
Quote from: Diokatsu on February 03, 2009, 08:38:24 pm
Something exists. It might not be any of us, but somewhere something does exist.


thank you for agreeing with me.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: fugibo on February 04, 2009, 05:38:39 pm
That was my point, NAMK :( I said that you had to exist because something has to concieve you no matter what, and thus you have to exist.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Diokatsu on February 04, 2009, 06:22:48 pm
Quote from: NAMKCOR on February 03, 2009, 11:32:37 pm
Quote from: Diokatsu on February 03, 2009, 08:38:24 pm
Something exists. It might not be any of us, but somewhere something does exist.


thank you for agreeing with me.


I still think this subject is stupid. NOT a philosophy forum.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: fugibo on February 04, 2009, 07:58:53 pm
Then the subject isn't stupid, the placement is. I'm not downing you, Dio, I'm trying to get you to stop you're senselessness. No topic can possibly be stupid, only an idiot's (or an uneducated, inebriated, or otherwise inhibited person's) on it. A topic itself can't possibly be stupid. Please, if you're gonna post in intelligent debate, keep it cool :/
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Diokatsu on February 04, 2009, 08:08:13 pm
Alright, but I'm asking Blizz to start a philosophy forum. Seeing as all you guys seem to like this kind of thing, it wouldn't be a bad idea.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: tSwitch on February 04, 2009, 10:22:13 pm
Quote from: WcW on February 04, 2009, 05:38:39 pm
That was my point, NAMK :( I said that you had to exist because something has to concieve you no matter what, and thus you have to exist.


my point wasn't whether or not I exist, but whether or not -you- do.

Quote from: Diokatsu on February 04, 2009, 08:08:13 pm
Alright, but I'm asking Blizz to start a philosophy forum. Seeing as all you guys seem to like this kind of thing, it wouldn't be a bad idea.


philosophy is a perfectly fine debate topic.
I don't see why you have your panties all in a wad.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: fugibo on February 04, 2009, 10:33:37 pm
Okay, now this is gonna flamish. If I were a mod, that's were this'd get locked :(

And oops. Well, whether or not I exist, you still exist in some way, and since I'm related to you via this forum, I exist by extension. We all exist :P
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: Diokatsu on February 04, 2009, 11:40:35 pm
Quote from: NAMKCOR on February 04, 2009, 10:22:13 pm
philosophy is a perfectly fine debate topic.
I don't see why you have your panties all in a wad.

This isn't debate NAMK...THis is you trying to make everyone see something you found was interesting. Debate requires two arguable sides.
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: winkio on February 04, 2009, 11:59:42 pm
Let's stop arguing semantics.  Philosophy is close enough to intelligent debate for it to be in the same forum.  Dio, if you feel so inclined, then just don't respond.  NAMK, don't egg him on.  Now back to the question at hand...

Existence is such a weird term.  The human mind exists only as a bunch of cells made of common elements.  Yet somehow, a consciousness comes out of it, which can imagine things that don't exist.  The question is: do you, NAMK, actually exist?  Or are you just a bunch of cells going about their methodical duty?  Are you seperate from your matter?

(sorry for taking it in a new direction, but I though it would be more productive than arguing)
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: fugibo on February 05, 2009, 07:55:44 am
@winkio: I think he's trying to get us to prove that our cells are real  :o
Title: Re: Proof
Post by: tSwitch on February 05, 2009, 08:56:21 am
Quote from: WcW on February 04, 2009, 10:33:37 pm
Okay, now this is gonna flamish. If I were a mod, that's were this'd get locked :(

And oops. Well, whether or not I exist, you still exist in some way, and since I'm related to you via this forum, I exist by extension. We all exist :P


Spoiler: ShowHide

(http://a1.vox.com/6a00c2251ffd548e1d00c22523c8e98fdb-500pi)


Quote from: winkio on February 04, 2009, 11:59:42 pm
Existence is such a weird term.  The human mind exists only as a bunch of cells made of common elements.  Yet somehow, a consciousness comes out of it, which can imagine things that don't exist.  The question is: do you, NAMK, actually exist?  Or are you just a bunch of cells going about their methodical duty?  Are you seperate from your matter?


by your model, existence seems to be mutually exclusive from matter, i.e. a soul.
I'm afraid debating the existence of a soul is cause for another topic, as it would most likely become spiritual/religious really quickly.

now, assuming I am simply a bunch of cells going about my methodical duty, I still have awareness and consciousness, and cannot deny my own existence, as I can think, move, feel, etc... entirely independently and by my own will.