QuoteOn October 18, 2004, Arthur Shelton, a self described Christian and Eagle Scout, murdered his friend and roommate, Larry Hooper, because Hooper didn't believe in God.
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The trial began with the taped phone call Arthur Shelton placed to the Taylor police department in Taylor, Michigan, October 18, 2004, at precisely 12:44 AM. Shelton sounded calm and pridefull when he told the dispatcher he had just shot "the devil himself" with a revolver and a shotgun because "he (Hooper) didn't believe in God." Shelton told the dispatcher he was "still armed and ready to shoot again in case he moves. I want to make sure he's gone." When the dispatcher asked how many times he shot the victim Shelton replied, "hopefully enough."
Throughout the 15 minute phone call Shelton often repeated, "I'm a Christian and an Eagle Scout and I wouldn't lie," and "don't worry about me, I'm fine, but he's the devil." The dispatcher struggled to persuade Shelton to lay down his weapon and go outdoors with his arms raised. Shelton resisted, as he feared Hooper might not be "dead enough", but eventually complied.
Dead enough was an understatement. When the police arrived they were confronted with the grizzly scene of Hooper sitting upright on the couch with his head blown away and his brain laying on his hand. The autopsy report presented by the prosecutor was gruesome to be sure, but, for the record, Larry Hooper tested negative for all narcotics and alcohol.
Testimony by the arresting officer and the officers transporting Shelton to the police station revealed that while the officers were interested in gathering details about the incident, Shelton was obsessed with talking about God, the Eagle Scouts and stating he "would not talk to anyone who didn't believe in God but that he would talk to the police because he felt they believed in God."
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He stated he "was not sorry for a second that he killed Hooper." He stated, "In the eyes of the law I was wrong and will probably spend the rest of my life in prison, but in the eyes of God I have killed an evil person -- the devil himself."
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Judge Bill invited Shelton to make a statement and after fumbling for words Shelton stated he was sorry that Larry was dead but he did a job that had to be done. He stated that he actually, "saw fire and smoke coming from Larry's eyes and knew he was the devil himself."
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Even with all that behind us, December 19th, the day of sentencing, was still a horrific experience for myself, George Shiffer, Joe Milon, Lee Helms and Marty Maier. When leaving the courtroom the 'Christian' Shelton family lay in wait for us in the hallway. Their tears dried, they surrounded us shouting these comments: "The one good thing of all of this is that another Atheist is dead and the world is better off for it" and "The only good Atheist is a dead Atheist."
It's like the end of Blair Witch, you think that it'll have a bittersweet ending but nope... very fucked ending.
The guy was convicted, however, the ones that fucked his brain are still on the street.
There are some seriously sick people out there. -_-
Why is this bad? They're just emulating Christ! In John, he walked down to the Synagogue and busted a cap in ALL them crackers!
Quote from: Longfellow on November 12, 2009, 10:02:39 am
Why is this bad? They're just emulating Christ! In John, he walked down to the Synagogue and busted a cap in ALL them crackers!
soooooooooooo legity i rememba readin dat and i was like yoooooooooooooooo dat fucker just got popped!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seriously though I didn't really think people would be that devoted to faith and their distorted interpretation of it. I think that they might do better to emulate Jesus, who never killed anyone because they doubted him :\ In fact, he actually hung out with the faithless and the sinners.
Luke 5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."
Seems like they have their priorities messed up. And we thought terrorists were to be worried over? Seems like he's just like a terrorist.
Aye, there are fanatics in every religion. Just look at terrorist organizations based on the Muslim faith, and the kkk. There's always people who feel they must eliminate those who don't believe as they do, and in so doing violate their faith.
And this happens to be the same reason why I'm an atheist myself. More often than not, religion causes more problems than it solves, causes more grief than hope, and destroys more lives than it saves.
However, I'm not about to get a revolver and blow someone's brains out because they have a belief. Our society preaches tolerance but in truth tolerance is zilch. People rub shoulders with others, writhing in disgust at the thought that they share a different belief or come from a different culture, but have enough brains to keep their mouth shut to keep the peace. After all, it is in our nature to be intolerant of others- we just have to pretend and show a fake smile.
But then these fanatics show up, and it really makes me wonder, why? These people can't honestly say they're practicing their belief, can they?
...also upon reading of that article, I'm not telling anyone that I'm an atheist. I would freely say so if the topic came up in regular speech, but after the reading of that, I don't know who to trust.
QuoteAfter all, it is in our nature to be intolerant of others- we just have to pretend and show a fake smile.
Who's
our? I'm intolerant of intolerance and that's about it in the field of others.
Quote from: SorceressKyrsty on November 13, 2009, 05:15:08 am
And this happens to be the same reason why I'm an atheist myself. More often than not, religion causes more problems than it solves, causes more grief than hope, and destroys more lives than it saves.
However, I'm not about to get a revolver and blow someone's brains out because they have a belief. Our society preaches tolerance but in truth tolerance is zilch. People rub shoulders with others, writhing in disgust at the thought that they share a different belief or come from a different culture, but have enough brains to keep their mouth shut to keep the peace. After all, it is in our nature to be intolerant of others- we just have to pretend and show a fake smile.
But then these fanatics show up, and it really makes me wonder, why? These people can't honestly say they're practicing their belief, can they?
...also upon reading of that article, I'm not telling anyone that I'm an atheist. I would freely say so if the topic came up in regular speech, but after the reading of that, I don't know who to trust.
First off, people cause problems, not religion. Second, tolerance isn't zilch, but exactly what you described. It's getting over our prejudices and not acting upon our impulses, nothing else. I don't know what you were thinking tolerance was.
I'm actually going to stop since I'm not in the mood to pick apart a pretentious atheist's post
PS: I'm atheist.
Quote from: Diokatsu on November 13, 2009, 05:38:09 pm
First off, people cause problems, not religion. Second, tolerance isn't zilch, but exactly what you described. It's getting over our prejudices and not acting upon our impulses, nothing else. I don't know what you were thinking tolerance was.
I'm actually going to stop since I'm not in the mood to pick apart a pretentious atheist's post
PS: I'm atheist.
(http://news.cnet.com/i/bto/20080211/nail_in_coffin.jpg)
QuoteFirst off, people cause problems, not religion.
Sorry Dio, nothing against you, I actually agree with the rest of your post, but I love arguing against this argument. Especially when its guns, not religion, but that's a different story.
Warning: don't be stupid, I'm not saying that religion is evil. It's just a structure that can easily be used for evil, as it can easily be used for good.
Religion is a motivation, a justification, and a cause.
Religion gives it's fanatics the willpower to commit unthinkable atrocities
Religion gives a justification for inhuman behavior
Religion makes the conflicts of a few the conflicts of millions.
Yes, religion does cause problems, especially in this case (I'm referring to the story). The question is do the evils overcome that good that comes from religion?
Quote from: winkio on November 13, 2009, 05:50:12 pm
QuoteFirst off, people cause problems, not religion.
Sorry Dio, nothing against you, I actually agree with the rest of your post, but I love arguing against this argument. Especially when its guns, not religion, but that's a different story.
Warning: don't be stupid, I'm not saying that religion is evil. It's just a structure that can easily be used for evil, as it can easily be used for good.
Religion is a motivation, a justification, and a cause.
Religion gives it's fanatics the willpower to commit unthinkable atrocities
Religion gives a justification for inhuman behavior
Religion makes the conflicts of a few the conflicts of millions.
Yes, religion does cause problems, especially in this case (I'm referring to the story). The question is do the evils overcome that good that comes from religion?
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_3v8aRlHC8L4/Sqe6ZC1RN4I/AAAAAAAAAFg/KO3m7gbCbfc/s320/Coffin+Nails.jpg)
Both of you are right...there is a difference between ideas and actions.
Religion could be used for good (being an atheist myself...) but it is usually dominated by fanaticism. Such ideas should have died off in the dark ages. (With burning witches, stoning women and etc...)
I agree with both sides of this argument =/
Hahaha. winkio I do see how you're thinking, but I'm saying that people CANNOT use religion as a motivation do justify these actions. Maybe it wasn't apparent but I meant problems such as the ones RoseSkye mentioned. Sure, religion is the motivator, but the way I see it there is a certain amount of decision making on the part of the person who decided to commit such a heinous crime. So while he might be motivated by religion, he cannot blame his actions on the religion itself, but on his own self for choosing an action. Catholic schooling brought me up the think that it's not merely about the temptation, but about the decision you make based on temptation. That's my perspective. I didn't articulate it since I was so fed up with that post that my ideas got all convoluted.
Also, I totally agree with what you said about religion's goods outweighing the bad that stems from them. Everyone seems to be such a pessimist. XD
Quote from: Diokatsu on November 13, 2009, 06:45:20 pm
Hahaha. winkio I do see how you're thinking, but I'm saying that people CANNOT use religion as a motivation do justify these actions. Maybe it wasn't apparent but I meant problems such as the ones RoseSkye mentioned. Sure, religion is the motivator, but the way I see it there is a certain amount of decision making on the part of the person who decided to commit such a heinous crime. So while he might be motivated by religion, he cannot blame his actions on the religion itself, but on his own self for choosing an action. Catholic schooling brought me up the think that it's not merely about the temptation, but about the decision you make based on temptation. That's my perspective. I didn't articulate it since I was so fed up with that post that my ideas got all convoluted.
Also, I totally agree with what you said about religion's goods outweighing the bad that stems from them. Everyone seems to be such a pessimist. XD
OBJECTION! I disagree whole heartedly. Religion is not a rosetta stone, it is a divider used as fuel for wars between differing opinions. Many religious group even today are fighting wars and having conflicts that outlives any battle or any war politically or territory based.
No, the goods don't outweigh the bad.. sure hearts are in the right place but, even today people are turning their backs on SCIENCE because it conflicts with their agreements. Such ignorance should not be encouraged or even reasoned with. I'm surprised that you said that Dio.
But look at what religion offers to the everyday person. You're just focusing on the news and the media and not seeing the reality they mask. There is more than what you can see to the world. Religion is hope for a better future. That's the good. Nothing that stems from such a pure desire to do good is something I could hate. But I guess that's entirely my opinion. :3
Quote from: Diokatsu on November 13, 2009, 07:50:44 pm
But look at what religion offers to the everyday person. You're just focusing on the news and the media and not seeing the reality they mask. There is more than what you can see to the world. Religion is hope for a better future. That's the good. Nothing that stems from such a pure desire to do good is something I could hate. But I guess that's entirely my opinion. :3
*ahem* You're right... lets look at what religion has to offer.
Christianity:
Anti- evolution, anti gay rights, anti anyone with a differing opinion. Willing to 'stupify' their own children and spread it like a virus. Believes to be better than jews, muslims, and even war within confines of own religion.
Pentecost vs Baptist vs Catholic - etc.
Mormons vs Jehova's witnesses ... annoying as fuck.
Muslims? Extremist are .. well extreme. Willing to dismember enemies or even followers if they don't follow the rules or even to intimidate others that. Who's going to risk being killed by opposing those in charge? Women are subjected to HELL ... my sister was beaten everyday by her muslim boyfriend and I hate that.
(Note: I've had experience with both Christians and Muslims that make me hate those two with a passion. . not because of its extremists but because its encouraged in the rule books)
Jews have been warring with another religion (that is almost its mirror) because of slight difference in the middle east. I mean.. all the religions I mentioned are VERY VIOLENT and has VERY VIOLENT pasts. They also have the most in common (Well, jews not so much. They almost get a free pass because of the holocausts. Which was encouraged by christian radicals... and of course people that didn't know what the hell darwin's theory was.).
I mean if this stuff is good for society, fuck society.
Christianity is good (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeWbZOl0Wyw)
US Christianity is good (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20M9ywn7Zgs)
US Muslims are great (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpV_cJ5E0wQ)
Religions that turns out people like this are the way to go (http://creepingsharia.wordpress.com/2009/06/05/muslim-child-and-friends-behead-man-while-praising-allah-video/)
I could go on, but, that is depressing. What I can't stand is people can always say "Well, if you're against christianity, or any other religion because of a few bad nuts you are intolerant." Damn right, if anyone wants to be that fucking primitive and it is encouraged by the rules of that religion, FUCK that religion.
I don't see any reason to have something that promotes MURDERS around.. and if you don't believe me with that.. here let me quote a few bible scripters from the honest to god BIBLE of the christians.
Leviticus 20:27 >>
'Now a man or a woman who is a medium or a spiritist shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones, their bloodguiltiness is upon them.'"
Deuteronomy 22:13-21
If a man marries, then decides that he hates his wife, he can claim she wasn't a virgin when they were married. If her father can't produce the "tokens of her virginity" (bloody sheets), then the woman is to be stoned to death at her father's doorstep.
Ezekiel 23:1-49
Two sisters were guilty of "committing whoredoms" by pressing their breasts and bruising "the teats of their virginity." As a punishment, one sister's nakedness was discovered, her children were taken from her, and she was killed by the sword. And the fate of the surviving sister was even worse: Her nose and ears were cut off, she was made to "pluck off" her own breasts, and then after being raped and mutilated, she is stoned to death
Leviticus 24
6 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.
It can go on, but.. I don't have all day. Fuck the good of the community, I've seen the results of religion.. its like a mainstream mafia. Nothing reasons the hatred.. and if its not hatred its the constant holier than thou speeches. "Well, if you don't believe what I believe you're going to hell." I swear to god if one more bloody person stops me and tells me about the "love" of god. I will scream. You know what's worse? The old guy preachers that tried to act my age to indoctrinate me.
I would like to note that I don't have any problem with...
Jews
Buddhists
and any religions that aren't always under scruntiny for being dickholes to everyone.
Intolerance....You're a big hypocrite XD
Like I said, people cause problems because they don't see the true message of religion. and don't try and tell me what the message is, I'm educated by Catholics and used my own sense of interpretation to figure some of it out.
Oh and when people try and tell you about the love of God, they want to enlighten you and lead you to a better life. Good sentiments should be taken well.
Quote from: Diokatsu on November 13, 2009, 09:55:04 pm
Intolerance....You're a big hypocrite XD
Like I said, people cause problems because they don't see the true message of religion. and don't try and tell me what the message is, I'm educated by Catholics and used my own sense of interpretation to figure some of it out.
Oh and when people try and tell you about the love of God, they want to enlighten you and lead you to a better life. Good sentiments should be taken well.
Once again, I'm intolerant of intolerance. I would be a hypocrite if I didn't already state that I have no tolerance for the amount of bullshit emitted from the crap I see. My sister was beaten.. two black eyes had to wear sunglasses by a muslim man.. his muslim friends encouraged that. By beaten I don't mean once, I mean everyday. His "religion" said he could do that.. also says he could have more than one girl around. My sister vulnerable and needing love, accepted. I have a grave hatred for that man... it burns deep. In my mind I have a picture of his face etched on an alter burning with fire for years upon years.. and he is always smiling in that picture. Smiling.. after all the abuse he did.
Did I mention he took my sisters children away? He doesn't give a fuck about those children. He let some girl baby sit (his neice) she shook the baby and somehow blamed my sister for that.. my sister was imprisoned for the same reason my mother is. Child abuse.. even though she didn't do shit... That man didn't care at all.
That man threatened to kill my now dead sister because she tried to defend the sister that is still alive. That man swung an axe at my sister and shot out her window with her still in the car with a shotgun... After that relationship, my sister lost all faith in men.. she started hating me, I didn't blame her. She turned gay.. my mother, a christian, looks down on gays. You have no idea how fucked up my life had to be for me to develop a mental illness.. I have had heart attacks from stress at age 18, I started balding around 16... don't fucking call me a hypocrite..
I used to cry when other people was picked on because I knew exactly how it felt. I've had no fucking friends growing up. . someone of a different race offered to be friends with me and people of my own race picked on him because he was white... want to know why? Endless cycles of bullshit fear mongering leeched off from centuries of "NO YOU" from a supremacy once encouraged by ... the bible.
Hypocrite? Fuck that.. I have no respect for something that can be used for bullying nor supremacy nor forcing ones will on others. I have respect for someone who can personally do well in society without being scared into doing it by a god that is supposed to be all loving except on certain occasions. I have respect for a loving god.. if there is one.. but never religion. Mark me down for that. I would rather stab myself in the heart and scratch out my eyes and I'm dead fucking serious on this.. than ever worship any religion that encourages any sort of "I'm better than you because.." mentality. Period. Got that?
You can take that however you want it and even put as many X's or D's as you wish to soften the blow. Note that I can not be any more or less serious than I am now, this is one of my nerve buttons one can press to annoy the shit out of me. You know what else? My dead grandmother as well as my mother used to follow this guy called 'Benny Hinn'. A scam artist that collects money from people and pretends to be a miracle healer... the way he takes money from people in poverty is almost unforgivable. They donate expecting 'god' to bless then and he lives in the lap of luxury. As a greedy king... they go to his shows and he pretends to heal them... they die anyway but he gets rich off of it. It annoys me to all hell!
Benny Hinn, leeches 200+ million a year for nothing at all.. just by donning a guise of "God's healer". He "predicted" the extermination of gays by 1995, and the assassination or death of Fidel Castro by the turn of the centry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Hinn
Kent Hovind, even though he was/is gay he "witnessed" against gay people, avoided taxes and basically pretended to be a high school teacher with a degree in science even though he didn't know WHAT THE FUCK he was talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind
Snake oil sales man, however, instead of snake oil... he sells "miracle water".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Popoff
What the FUCK do you do when your ministers and preachers of the religion are nothing but snakes and scam artists? Your pope? Ex neo nazi. This isn't childhood anymore, the world is cold... reality is colder. As much as you wish to pretend and make believe... life will pass you by if you turn your eye blind on that creek of denial.. because it branches off, soon you will be up shits creek with no paddle. I'm not going to pretend that christianity or being muslims is some sort of heavenly resort. I've been a christian, and I've been around muslims... nothing but misogyny and intolerance of those opposing your belief awaits.
Those with a dissenting view? They're seen as demons. My mother would always say "That person has the devil in them." if something made a lick of sense and opposed christianity.. The devil is always waiting for you. The devil? Logic. Religion is the most effective brainwashing that one can impose on people. Reality becomes some sort of fantasy. You get points for converting people, extra lives for "refusing temptation and rebuking satan". The question is never "is there a god." I can't answer that.. and to be honest I do believe in a god or even gods... however, the question is:
"If two or more religions exist that are almost exact copies of one another... why would they fight over which one is right?"
which leads to the question
"If they are fighting and they are the same... is the foundation of their religion right?"
which leads to
"If they are wrong and they are fighting over something that can't be right... why are they fighting?"
which leads to
"If their ideals are wrong and their ideals make others unhappy... why follow them? If they are truly good people because of their religion... why don't they realize this?"
I would sit in pews and listen to preachers that openly spewed messages of hate about gay people... oh yeah in the midst of all the screaming I guess you can get lost... unfortunately for my mother which made me stay awake and listen to that gibberish... church always bored the fuck out of me. No kid wanted to waste a three day weekend listening to some lecture... fucking torture. I wanted to watch cartoons, not some clown talking about the rapture..
God, I could go on.. but, I wont. I'll tell you though if you need more proof I can give you a christian forum that would make you want to claw out your eyes... tch, intolerance... I wish I could show you the experience I've seen... you don't know shit of 'intolerance' when it comes to christians and muslims.
Intolerant? Fuck you.
I'll stop being intolerant of intolerance when gays can marry, women aren't seen as objects, people can exist together without trying to kill every fucking one with a life they don't agree with, and this bullshit about 'controversy' whenever X is not a norm in society and it isn't a big deal isn't seen as a big deal... tch.
The only reason religion exists today is because of friggin parents that friggin deep-throats their children with the friggin crap. Even I, myself, as anti religion as I am believe in a god... afterlife? Maybe, maybe not.. I'm not counting on it. However, I believe life is what you make it... life is about making a better life for your children and them theirs. That can be accomplished without the fairy tales. All parents have to do is friggin love their kids. Don't spoil them, just raise them.. and if everyone did that...? Well, perhaps this big blue marble would be a bit more habitable without all the infighting.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-april-18-2005/this-week-in-god---manifes-station
^ In short... that.