Chaos Project

Why operating system

first off some rules

• No irrelevant arguments
  
• use some facts to back up your arguments
  
• no 'Windows just copies everyone' arguments they aren't true OR relevant
  
• no 'Apple/Windows sucks arguments' you need some evidence
  
• in short don't be stupid closed-minded fan boy/girl
  
• be open minded
  
  
  
  now to begin
  
  EDIT: I forgot to say that the below is just what i hear on a day to day basis not necessarily what I think.
  EDIT 2: this list is going to be edited to represent the general consensus of the thread
  
  Windows:
   Pros:
      HUGE user base if you make something for windows SOMEONE will use it
      can run linix apps with a little help (http://www.andlinux.org/)
      very user friendly
      the system using it can be custom built and MUCH more powerful
      the vast majority of software is made for windows only (not necessarily good)
      when it crashes (if your not an idiot when becomes an if) it is never 'hard' to fix
    cons:
      most viruses are written for windows
      security software is a must
      windows has screwed up twice (once in ME and once in vista's ram hogging)
      most versions xp and below feel 'clunky'
  
  Apple
     pros:
       beautiful
       rarely crashes but when it dose it is a major problem
       almost no viruses
       EASY to use
       good for graphics (Photoshop ect.)
     cons:
       pricey (to the point where you are not getting your moneys worth)
       almost NO customization possible
       very little software is available compared to any other operating system
  
  Linux
  
    Pros
      + The core software is magnificently done. There are freaks at work there. The kernel itself is incredibly stable and versatile, and the GNU software surrounding it is
      very professionally done, too. Despite what you may think of OSS, the GNU/Linux guys really know what they're doing.
      + Versatility. Versatility. There's no limit to what you can do, literally. While most people can't take advantage of the fact that it's open-source, there's a huge amount 
      of software built around GNU/Linux that you can get for free and modify to your heart's desire.
      + Predictability. None of the software is done at the last minute by some overworked coder who has an entire project to himself. Almost everything undergoes serious
      peer review, and everything makes sense once you learn the basics.
      + Package management. You can't get much easier than
  
     

   sudo apt-get install <program name>

  
  
    Cons
      - Lack of professional software beyond the core. Everything on top is buggy and ugly as Hell.
      - Lack of hardware support. There's only so much that people can do in their spare time for free.
      - Lack of a unified development platform. While it's not hard to write software that will predictably run on Ubuntu/SuSE/&c., it's very hard to write software that will
      work beautifully across all installations in comparison to Windows and Mac (OS X has the clear advantage here, standardization is huge on the platform. There are
      almost no "crap apps" that do their function but annoy the Hell out of you doing it)
  
  
  
  please add to these lists or refute the claims made there
       
   
  

Hmm, I like my PC because one day I'm going to dual boot Mac OSX with my Windows 7. :3

Quote from: Ryexander on February 17, 2010, 10:36:40 pm
can run linix apps with a little help (http://www.andlinux.org/)

OS X is POSIX compliant and ships with an X Window System server. I think it has the edge here.

Quote
very user friendly

It is rather impossible to prove this one either way, but IMO OS X has a much more intuitive interface.

Quote
the system using it can be custom built and MUCH more powerful

I don't think that this is relevant considering that the top-tier Mac Pro has two quad core Nehalems, 32 GB of RAM, and two 1TB HDDs. At least, that's what I remember. I could be totally wrong beyond the two quad core Nehalems.

Quote
the vast majority of software is made for windows only (not necessarily good)

Entirely true, but I know of no software other than RMXP that I cannot replace on my Mac.

Quote
good for graphics (Photoshop ect.)

OS X has much better graphics subsystems built-in, but this is entirely a lie. All of Adobe's products run identically on both OS X and Windows.

Quote
pricey (to the point where you are not getting your moneys worth)

Quote
almost NO customization possible

Prove this, please.

Quote
very little software is available compared to any other operating system

True, but once again irrelevant. Yes, Linux and Windows have possibly thousands times more software packages available, but almost none of them are irreplaceable on OS X.



Personally, I use OS X because a) I hate Windows, b) like UNIX, and c) wanted a quality computer to use UNIX on. I'm not particularly attached to OS X as opposed to Linux, but OS X is much, much, much more well-made in general. It's just "complete." It's also much more standardized as a platform, which is always good.

(I take it this post was made for me, since I'm the only Mac user other than NAMK on this forum)

Well, I technically "use" a Mac. By which I mean its OS. But I guess that doesn't count. xD

Quote from: Branden on February 17, 2010, 10:56:33 pm
Well, I technically "use" a Mac. By which I mean its OS. But I guess that doesn't count. xD

Consider it the equivalent of running Windows 7 on a netbook. It works fine, but not as well as it does on a workstation.

This is a horrible analogy. But I hope you see my point.

I'm the opinion police!

These statements hold no weight:
Windows
when it crashes (if your not an idiot when becomes an if) it is never 'hard' to fix
most versions xp and below feel 'clunky'
OS-X
beautiful
EASY to use
rarly crashes but when it dose it is a major problem

And then there's this statement, which is just completely and utterly false:
OS-X
good for graphics (Photoshop ect.)

---

Okay, my view:

Macs are built for the eye to use, while Windows machines are build for the hands to use.  Mac has an appealing, streamlined, technological design with a ridiculously successful ad campaign, despite having very few technical advantages.  Windows has a very useful, versatile, and powerful system that has no core 'identity' like the Macs do, yet the Windows platform is preferred in general.

Something that I find interesting is the hype wave surrounding the mac user base.  I am perfectly fine with people preferring Macs because they look nicer, or they are easier for them to use, or any simple valid reason.  But apparently, there's a lot of Mac users who aren't, so they make shit up like 'Macs are better for graphics' or 'Macs have higher quality parts' or 'Macs never have any problems compared to windows.'  If you like Macs better, fine, but stop making shit up.

I personally like the fact that Windows has some competition, however radical.  It keeps the operating system getting cleaner, more efficient, and more useful.  All of the Mac users who are in Science or Engineering at my college are always having to deal with incompatibilities or underdeveloped software, including major software packages such as Matlab and Autodesk 3ds Max.

I use windows because it has no limitations.  In my experience, Mac is set up to always keep the user inside a safety box, making the user have to work to go beyond, while windows is created for an open environment.  While this may be part of the reason that it is prone to more failure, many of these failures are merely the results of extended freedom.  I'll leave it there for now.

Quote from: fugibo on February 17, 2010, 10:59:15 pm

Quote from: Branden on February 17, 2010, 10:56:33 pm
Well, I technically "use" a Mac. By which I mean its OS. But I guess that doesn't count. xD

Consider it the equivalent of running Windows 7 on a netbook. It works fine, but not as well as it does on a workstation.

This is a horrible analogy. But I hope you see my point.

Oh, no. I do see your point. I'm just doing it that way until I finally install it on a separate partition.

Oh, boy... I can't wait. <3

lol the main reason I made this thread was to see the reaction. the pros and cons I listed are the stereotypical stuff I hear about the systems almost every day, not necessarily my viewpoint. I'm glad to see that the responses were (for the most part) not bs or opinionated.

congrats Winko, LF, you have once again proved yourselves to not be idiots.

I think it's a bit unfair if you compare only OS-X from Apple but all versions from Windows. There are more Mac OS versions than just Mac OS-X and they weren't as good (at least not that I know). Either compare Mac OS to Windows OS or compare Mac OS-X with Windows 7 or Windows XP or whichever version.

In Windows' defense, Me and Vista were done by not the same development teams that did XP and 7.

I agree that the X Window System server is definitely a good advantage. But Unix systems use it as well.

Apple's stuff IS pricey, though. i.e. the iPhone costs a shitload of money, but it's not that much better than other smartphones in that category in comparison. :/
Or take iPod Nano. I mean, seriously? That much money? I can literally get an MP4 player for three times less money and it's just as good. :/
Or another example: A macbook compared to a notebook with Windows 7 costs a lot more even though the have the same hardware configuration. Mac is definitely the most expensive. You can't argue about that, it's the business policy to sell stuff at ridiculously high prices. :/

I think you should include Unix into the conversation. Unix for servers FTW. Also, the newest Ubuntu is incredibly user friendly. Quite a number of Windows users was lost to Unix due to Vista and Ubuntu.

I think this image is appropriate here. xD

Quote from: Blizzard on February 18, 2010, 02:41:17 am
I think it's a bit unfair if you compare only OS-X from Apple but all versions from Windows. There are more Mac OS versions than just Mac OS-X and they weren't as good (at least not that I know). Either compare Mac OS to Windows OS or compare Mac OS-X with Windows 7 or Windows XP or whichever version.

In Windows' defense, Me and Vista were done by not the same development teams that did XP and 7.

I agree that the X Window System server is definitely a good advantage. But Unix systems use it as well.

Apple's stuff IS pricey, though. i.e. the iPhone costs a shitload of money, but it's not that much better than other smartphones in that category in comparison. :/
Or take iPod Nano. I mean, seriously? That much money? I can literally get an MP4 player for three times less money and it's just as good. :/
Or another example: A macbook compared to a notebook with Windows 7 costs a lot more even though the have the same hardware configuration. Mac is definitely the most expensive. You can't argue about that, it's the business policy to sell stuff at ridiculously high prices. :/

I think you should include Unix into the conversation. Unix for servers FTW. Also, the newest Ubuntu is incredibly user friendly. Quite a number of Windows users was lost to Unix due to Vista and Ubuntu.

I think this image is appropriate here. xD

Spoiler: ShowHide

(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h316/bblizzard/fanboys.jpg)

(I have to be quick, so this is only in reference to the first line) OS X is, for all intents and purposes, the only relevant version of Mac OS. Mac OS's 1-9 were all evolutionary and derived from the same code base, while OS X descends from NeXTSTEP, which in turn descends from BSD (a UNIX distribution.) Mac OS 9 didn't even have virtual memory.

I like DOS.

Ah, I see. I remember OS/2 from earlier so I thought it wasn't the first usable Mac OS. Then it's fine.
If we include Unix in this, we should stay with Unix in general. There's a couple of dozens distros and they pretty much don't differ too much from each other. Sure, they do differ, but not enough that we should consider each one separately.

Anybody else got something to add?

Quote from: Blizzard on February 18, 2010, 09:00:05 am
Ah, I see. I remember OS/2 from earlier so I thought it wasn't the first usable Mac OS. Then it's fine.
If we include Unix in this, we should stay with Unix in general. There's a couple of dozens distros and they pretty much don't differ too much from each other. Sure, they do differ, but not enough that we should consider each one separately.

Anybody else got something to add?

OS/2 is an IBM thing. Look it up.

I think this should be the general OS discussion thread, really. Which would mean that the first post would be updated to reflect general consensuses we reach.

that's fine by me
I've used all three OS's at multiple points in my life. the first computer I used was a windows 95, In elementary and middle school all the computers in my school were Apple and then I would go home and use my family's computer (a windows 98 at the time) then about five years ago we moved and the school had all Windows IBMs. and my family upgraded to an dell XPS running XP two years later. then I started using OS-X in my high school's Mac-Lab. THEN I got a vista laptop. and I tried booting ubuntu 9.10 from an external hard drive (I also tried fedora 12, ubuntu was better smother and more fleshed out). in short I have tried all the systems and used windows an mac extensively. and in truth the only real reason I use windows is because of how universal it is. when I get my first personal desktop it will be dual booting ubuntu and windows.
The main reason I like windows more that Ubuntu is that it is much more universal

Quote from: fugibo on February 18, 2010, 10:02:23 am
OS/2 is an IBM thing. Look it up.

Oops, you're right. >.<

@Ryex: Yeah, you should update the first post as LF says.

Reasons I like OSX:
> I love the interface, which can be customized, contrary to popular belief (http://lifehacker.com/5187072/magnifique-customizes-your-os-x-theme)
> It's so easy to install/delete programs, making it much more organized (drag the icon into Apps, INSTALLED, delete the icon from Apps, IT'S GONE!)
> Low Hardware Footprint
> Easy to use and Apple-provided method of dual booting windows.

Reasons I don't like OSX:
> Not as many Games.
> lolourhardwareonly

Reasons I like Windows:
> Easy to customize the interface (thank god)
> Games
> Interface is good and easy to work with (Win 7 explorer is so much better than XP)
> home-built computers <3

Reasons I don't like Windows:
> Programs install in like 5 places, and sometimes cause registry errors, making them pretend they're still there even if they aren't.  That's stupid.  I shouldn't have to clean my registry because something was badly programmed and it didn't uninstall properly.
> C:\ is a mess
> Have to waste time defragging
> Viruses
> DUAL BOOT? NO FUCKING WAY, OUR BOOTLOADER TAKES OVER YOUR COMPUTER, YOUR COMPUTER IS WINDOWS NOW, PANSY, STOP BEING A GEEK AND JUST USE WINDOWS.

My Ideal Computer:
Macbook Pro, dual booted with OSX for my general computing and media needs , and Windows 7 for when I feel like gaming, or (with a virtual machine) doing something that OSX can't like RMXP.

I like them both pretty equally, even though there's more downsides for Windows ._.
Opinions though.

I wish I had my ideal computer right now, but atm I have an HP, I did turn it into a hackintosh once, but the video card didn't have a package so I couldn't do jack shit with it, so I just went back to Windows only.

look at the the first post again see what you think.

Quote from: Subsonic_Noise on February 18, 2010, 08:29:37 am
I like DOS.

Yes.

I like System V, personally.

As for Linux's Pros and Cons:
+ The core software is magnificently done. There are freaks at work there. The kernel itself is incredibly stable and versatile, and the GNU software surrounding it is very professionally done, too. Despite what you may think of OSS, the GNU/Linux guys really know what they're doing.
+ Versatility. Versatility. There's no limit to what you can do, literally. While most people can't take advantage of the fact that it's open-source, there's a huge amount of software built around GNU/Linux that you can get for free and modify to your heart's desire.
+ Predictability. None of the software is done at the last minute by some overworked coder who has an entire project to himself. Almost everything undergoes serious peer review, and everything makes sense once you learn the basics.
+ Package management. You can't get much easier than

- Lack of professional software beyond the core. Everything on top is buggy and ugly as Hell.
- Lack of hardware support. There's only so much that people can do in their spare time for free.
- Lack of a unified development platform. While it's not hard to write software that will predictably run on Ubuntu/SuSE/&c., it's very hard to write software that will work beautifully across all installations in comparison to Windows and Mac (OS X has the clear advantage here, standardization is huge on the platform. There are almost no "crap apps" that do their function but annoy the Hell out of you doing it)

I hope this was nice and balanced. I felt like Linux deserved some love.

^ True.