Whoa!

Started by Spaceman McConaughey, September 26, 2011, 07:35:21 pm

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winkio

Good find!  That's pretty sick.

Spaceman McConaughey

Thanks. :D

I cannot wait to see how this will be applied to sandbox games in the future.

ForeverZer0

"Whoa!" is right. That is amazing. I really hope to start seeing some games using that technology.
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Spaceman McConaughey

Yeah, that would be amazing.

winkio


Ryex

the cravat is that all those objects are repeated copies accessed from the same memory. it each was a unique object then there would be no way in a frozen hell you could fit it all into memory. that many object would easily be over a terabyte. not saying it's not impressive tech but it has it's limitations.
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Spaceman McConaughey

While there is a bit of repetition, it's not SO much to where it would annoy me.

winkio

They hinted they developed an advanced level of data compression.  I don't doubt that it could handle large numbers of unique objects without any problems.  You are right in saying that repetition is a smaller file size, and besides that it is probably quicker to build models with.  Also, there's plenty of repetition in nature, so that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Vell

EVERY TREE

LOOKS EXACTLY THE SAME.

G_G

This isn't the first time its been done. In fact several people have done this using what they call "atoms". In fact Notch went on a whole thing about this particular video. Its great technology, don't get me wrong, but they're claiming as if no one else has tried/used this.

http://notch.tumblr.com/post/8386977075/its-a-scam
http://notch.tumblr.com/post/8423008802/but-notch-its-not-a-scam

I'm not trying to add negative energy to the post and not trying to "dis" Branden's find. Just pointing out that its been done before. And I'm still impressed with what they've done, I just don't like the fact that they act like its new technology.

winkio

I'll agree that the concept may have been done before, but the implementation and technology have not.  Anybody who thinks this is old news or too weak to survive has no idea what they are talking about.

But winkio, how do you have any idea what you are talking about?

Working closely with the chair of my university's computer science department, who does research on something very similar to this.

AliveDrive

UNLIMITED POWAH!

Why don't they just cycle 2 or 3 trees? It would cut down on the monotony (which doesn't bother me).
Quote from: Blizzard on September 09, 2011, 02:26:33 am
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ForeverZer0

This is simply a demo.
Of course much more could be added to add variation. I challenge anyone to find a game where trees don't repeat, etc. Keep in mind that the technology is still in development.  If they still had it all figured out enough to totally create worlds that use current technology, it would not be in development and game developers would be using it. Its more or less a sneak peak at their progress, and showing how close they are coming.
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Spaceman McConaughey

September 26, 2011, 10:50:21 pm #14 Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 10:53:20 pm by Tuggernuts
Quote from: game_guy on September 26, 2011, 10:28:54 pm
This isn't the first time its been done. In fact several people have done this using what they call "atoms". In fact Notch went on a whole thing about this particular video. Its great technology, don't get me wrong, but they're claiming as if no one else has tried/used this.

http://notch.tumblr.com/post/8386977075/its-a-scam
http://notch.tumblr.com/post/8423008802/but-notch-its-not-a-scam

I'm not trying to add negative energy to the post and not trying to "dis" Branden's find. Just pointing out that its been done before. And I'm still impressed with what they've done, I just don't like the fact that they act like its new technology.



With all do respect, Notch can go fuck himself. The creators of this technology already called him out on all points, and successfully made him look like the idiot he is. You know what I think? Notch is threatened, and his ego is so big, that he has to call out somebody over bogus points to make himself look good. Your post pissed me off, even though you did not mean to. Really, I don't see any other technology that allows an infinite amount of detail to geometry anywhere else. Tell me where that fag Notch found it, will you? Because the examples he gave, are NOT that. Keep Minecraft out of this topic. I do not want to be reminded of Notch and his HORRIBLY boring, and unoptimized game.

I'm not mad at you, I just hate it when people act like that moron Notch knows his stuff. He couldn't even optimize Minecraft to run as good as it should. A game that looks so damn bad, runs like shit, and makes my computer burn up more than Crysis 1 and 2 do.

Blizzard

September 27, 2011, 02:43:49 am #15 Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 02:46:22 am by Blizzard
I think they made a genius move to just disappear into thin air after their initial release. That way most people would just say it's a scam and the big companies would not get involved into "getting rid of them". Don't look so surprised, big companies do that all the time with big advances in technology. Just look at the oil industry and the huge delay and virtually no support for the development of the electric car. We probably could have made the first electric car 20 years ago. But back on topic. While there seems to be big progress, I am still skeptical about it.

Actually there are valid point which that Notch guy made. One is the memory problem of non-repeated data and the other is animation speed. You have to agree that these guys are not mentioning any drawbacks at all. Let me remind you that scams tend to not show any drawbacks at all. So they probably are actually trying to create a hype to get investors. Whether it is a scam or not is yet to be seen. Heh, funny enough that Notch said that they are trying not to be trustworthy at the end of his second article which pretty much supports what I said first in this post.

Again, I am skeptical, because if this kind of technology is that good, it's a big question why it hasn't been started to be used long ago. Polygons and 3D graphics weren't that mainstream when ray-tracing, voxels and point clouds were invented.
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Spaceman McConaughey

I am a firm believer, as I saw it running real time in the 40 minute interview video.

Why did nobody do it before? Because nobody cared to at all, obviously. Otherwise they would have done it, after it was PROVED to be real in the interview.

And I will say it again:
I am not going to trust a word from someone who can't optimize a game that mainly consists of cubes as its graphics to run great on low-end computers.

AngryPacman

Minecraft can't run on my laptop, and it can run WoW, Crysis 2, Portal 2, lots of recent games. It's seriously sloppy.
By the way, Euclidean? Yeah, it's made of 9 people.
G_G's a silly boy.

Blizzard

Look, you can pre-record everything and it's not like you can't bribe an interviewer. I'm not trusting Notch on his judgment, I am trusting myself on my own judgment. I mean, I'd love to see this happen. This would be fantastic. But exactly because it's so unbelievable, I am skeptical to believe. Almost all things that seem to be too good to be true turn out not to be true. I'm basically going with the chance of higher probability here. I mean, I actually do believe that they will release some sort of SDK, but I'm not expecting the miracles they are promising.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Spaceman McConaughey

September 27, 2011, 04:05:02 am #19 Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 04:10:43 am by Tuggernuts
I do not see what's so unbelievable about this? Because I don't.

Besides, I think they'd be in BIG trouble if this was fake after getting a $2,000,000(or whatever their currency is) loan from the Australian government. Nobody is that dumb.

EDIT:
Well, if such an advancement in computer technology is fake, so is this:
http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2011/09/24/scientists_turn_brain_activity_into_moving_images.html
(actually, that is not fake. if we can do THAT, I believe such a graphics engine is real.)

AngryPacman

Quote from: Tuggernuts on September 27, 2011, 04:05:02 am
Besides, I think they'd be in BIG trouble if this was fake after getting a $2,000,000(or whatever their currency is) loan from the Australian government. Nobody is that dumb.
Obviously, you have no idea how dumb the woman in charge of our country is.
G_G's a silly boy.

Spaceman McConaughey


Blizzard

September 27, 2011, 04:57:36 am #22 Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 04:59:12 am by Blizzard
These two things are completely different, but both of them still can't avoid the laws of physics. Brain activity is nothing more than electricity and magnetism. Showing some images based on that is not really a miracle. It's been done for decades, but they just improved some stuff now.
What Euclideon is doing is physically impossible, it's impossible to increase the level of detail without any kind of drawback, be it CPU time or memory. And they are not telling what the drawbacks are so they are hiding something.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Spaceman McConaughey

It's not physically impossible seeing as the proof is right there. Drawbacks or not, it's proven by them to be physically possible.

Blizzard

September 27, 2011, 05:53:12 am #24 Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 05:54:52 am by Blizzard
Eh, I already said that you can prerecord these things easily. Yet, I'm not saying it's prerecorded. I am saying that in a real situation where you don't just use the same model over and over, there would be memory problems.
A particle traveling faster than light is obviously physically possible. That doesn't automatically make it usable by the general public.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

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Spaceman McConaughey

They acknowledged that already, and I still do not see how it will all be a problem. Computers advance FAST.

AngryPacman

Quote from: Tuggernuts on September 27, 2011, 04:47:16 am
What country?
Australia, the country whose government was in question :|
G_G's a silly boy.

Spaceman McConaughey

Quote from: AngryPacman on September 27, 2011, 07:37:35 am
Quote from: Tuggernuts on September 27, 2011, 04:47:16 am
What country?
Australia, the country whose government was in question :|


Well, you said our, so I got confused, as I live in America. But now I realize exactly what you were saying. Sorry. xP

Blizzard

Quote from: Tuggernuts on September 27, 2011, 05:55:54 am
They acknowledged that already, and I still do not see how it will all be a problem. Computers advance FAST.


Where do they acknowledge that? Terabytes of RAM is not something that will be available soon.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

winkio

I think they are handling data in an entirely different way.  There is no way they have the whole point cloud for the entire island loaded at once, as you say, at least as individual points.  They likened it to a library where instead of all the books in one pile on the floor, they are organized by category on the shelves.  They could probably handle the point data by organizing it with a hierarchy so that only the top level is loaded into ram, and then everything else is loaded from a file as needed.  Or maybe with their data compression, they could use equations or sparse matrices to describe the data and then it could all fit into RAM at once easily.

Spaceman McConaughey

Quote from: Blizzard on September 27, 2011, 09:11:02 am
Quote from: Tuggernuts on September 27, 2011, 05:55:54 am
They acknowledged that already, and I still do not see how it will all be a problem. Computers advance FAST.


Where do they acknowledge that? Terabytes of RAM is not something that will be available soon.


I pretty much said they acknowledged that there is a lot of repetition, not sure what you're going on about. :P

Subsonic_Noise

I'm not a profressional at this, but I think they might use raytracing, meaning that there are actual "lightrays" being processed and actually only what you see is fully loaded. Probably not done exactly like this, but it might be something along those lines.

Blizzard

September 27, 2011, 11:00:48 am #32 Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 11:34:14 am by Blizzard
They acknowledged repetition, not high RAM usage. I mean having many different objects would require each object to be stored somewhere and loading them from a HDD on demand is too slow. Keeping them in RAM the whole time requires too much RAM. I really don't know how they have solved that problem.

I watched the 24 minutes interview that winkio posted. They are backing up their claims, but they are not really answering any of the problematic questions. He mentioned sorting at one point so they are probably using some sorting algorithm for their search algorithm. I just can't think of a searching algorithm that could this easily find the proper pixel and put it in a bitmap and still allow 20 fps. Even octree isn't that fast and it's complexity is log2(n). He mentioned 21 trillion atoms which would be impossible without repetition (even for an atom that needs just 1 byte, this would require 21 TB of RAM). So this can't be all solid memory. He has objects in some kind of format that are then positioned somewhere. But that clashes with an organization where a search algorithm would be useful. In any case, their search algorithm is the very backbone of this new technology. Without it, nothing would work. Because I can't think of a remotely realistic model for a search algorithm for this, I remain skeptical. I would guess that it's based on a special mathematical model abstract that isn't used in traditional physics and math. e.g. 3D projection is already handled with transformation matrices. These guys probably have a whole different approach. He even said that he had to reinvent rotation and scaling which pretty much lets me come to the conclusion that he isn't even using matrices. That's the only way I could think that something like this would be possible.

Don't get me wrong, I am impressed by what they have done. But they leave up way too many open questions for me to be convinced. I'm not saying it's some kind of trick or whatever, but some things simply don't make sense and until I see the finished product, I will remain skeptical. If they are really doing what they claim, then they simply have to have done it in a way that hasn't been done before (as I mentioned matrices in 3D graphics nowadays). I understand that they don't want to release any data into the public or otherwise some big companies could simply replicate what they are doing and even be done before they are (they are just 9 people after all, imagine what a 90 people team could do). Heck, I even want them to succeed in whatever they are doing. But until they come clean, I will stay skeptical.

@Sub: No, in the 24 minutes interview, their representative states that he isn't using raytracing. Raytracing is way too slow to be able to squeeze this kind of performance out without even using a GPU. In fact, it's none of the known techniques. This is why I believe that they aren't even using traditional methods of 3D rendering. They can't even use traditional methods because their system is completely different.

EDIT: Now I remembered something else that's weird. In the interview the reporter asks about bump mapping. With this method there is no bump mapping, you already have atoms, but the guy said that they will implement bump mapping which doesn't make any sense. Either he didn't hear the question right, he didn't pay attention to the question or he didn't want to answer it because he'd either reveal too much information or something harmful to their claims. In any case, these guys are hiding something, be it a new 3D rendering technology from the ground up or the truth behind a skillfully manufactured scam. I hope it's the former, because to me everything indicates this.

EDIT:
@winkio: You said you know somebody who's working on something similar, right? Am I right with my assumption that this is a completely new approach to rendering 3D space? That would be some massive out-of-the-box thinking, don't you think?
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

winkio

Yeah, this professor is researching new ways of modeling 3D objects.  I don't really think I have the freedom to talk about what he is currently doing in detail, but here is some of his past work with subdivision: http://www.subdivision.org/index.html.  You can see that by looking at the demos, just a few points of data can represent an entire complex curved object.  What I was getting at was that there may be ways to represent the atoms through density functions or other constructions that make the actual data size very small.

Blizzard

September 27, 2011, 02:14:33 pm #34 Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 02:17:26 pm by Blizzard
Right, I totally forgot about that. There are tons of ways to generate polygons and 3D artists do it all the time during modelling. I think that this is a completely new way of actually even rendering the 3D space, not just representation of objects in a 3D space. In any case, I'll take a quick look at it. Thanks for the info.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Ryex

I too really hope that they aren't pulling the wool over our eyes. but I'm extremely skeptical.

we all know for a fact that they can;t just be storing the entire point cloud as solid data , it's physically impossible. so they have to be abstracting the point cloud somehow to either a completely different object model or a algorithm that is capable of generating the point data at incredible speeds. Frankly I find it only slightly less improbable that they have a procedural generation algorithm capable of generating complex real objects in point cloud form at any sort of real time speed.

so it's up in the air. the only way their claims are possible is if they have a completely new way of representing the objects in memory. a way that represent un godly amount of atoms inside the roughly 2.5Gb of RAM available to them on the standard gaming computer. a way that can translate that data to a render able point cloud at any distance, scale, or orientation. and for this tech to be useable in a game it also has to be able to animate a point cloud in real time.

to those of us who understand how exiting tech works this claim SCREAMS impossible. it breaks laws of whats possible on current hardware like the string theory breaks the universal gravitational constant.

so please pardon us for maintaining a healthy level of skepticism and trying to instill such in you. Until I can hold their product in my hand (or hold it in my computers memory to be more technical) I'm not going to get my hopes up that the dream of unlimited detail graphics is even remotely possible.
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Blizzard

September 27, 2011, 04:27:34 pm #36 Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 04:30:20 pm by Blizzard
Whenever I hear him say the word "unlimited", I become more skeptical. :/ There is no such thing as unlimited. It feels like one of those pyramid schemes.

The only thing that is somewhat convincing is the actual demo show in the interview even if it could have been easily pre-rendered or manipulated into the recording afterwards. It's not like that hasn't been done before, it's technically quite easy to fake a recording like that. And frankly, the video looked a bit weird to me as there seems to be no light reflection on the screen whatsoever. It's just weird, that's all I'm saying.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Spaceman McConaughey

September 29, 2011, 08:54:04 pm #37 Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 09:14:11 pm by Tuggernuts
You're all seriously over-thinking it now. I'm not even kidding.

*removed* I'll just keep that there, though. Because you guys HONESTLY are over-thinking it.

winkio

I see nothing wrong with the discussion in this thread.  It is all very interesting and very much on topic.  You can't expect to control everyone's thoughts and make them all write the same comments as you.

Spaceman McConaughey

Quote from: winkio on September 29, 2011, 09:02:07 pm
I see nothing wrong with the discussion in this thread.  It is all very interesting and very much on topic.  You can't expect to control everyone's thoughts and make them all write the same comments as you.


Meh, I guess. Not really trying to make them think the same anyways. :P

Blizzard

It's a subject with mystery in it. Conventional methods to come to a conclusion aren't really working so we're just trying to think outside the box, because that's maybe what's it's actually about.
I have developed the ability to pick up subtle cues in conversation and pay attention to details. While I am talking to someone I constantly keep track of their body language as well as mine including the conversation. Multi-threading FTW. That's why I was able to pull out these small things on which I base my conclusion. Over-thinking would be if I continued there without wild ideas.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.