Whoa!

Started by Spaceman McConaughey, September 26, 2011, 07:35:21 pm

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AngryPacman

Quote from: Tuggernuts on September 27, 2011, 04:05:02 am
Besides, I think they'd be in BIG trouble if this was fake after getting a $2,000,000(or whatever their currency is) loan from the Australian government. Nobody is that dumb.
Obviously, you have no idea how dumb the woman in charge of our country is.
G_G's a silly boy.

Spaceman McConaughey


Blizzard

September 27, 2011, 04:57:36 am #22 Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 04:59:12 am by Blizzard
These two things are completely different, but both of them still can't avoid the laws of physics. Brain activity is nothing more than electricity and magnetism. Showing some images based on that is not really a miracle. It's been done for decades, but they just improved some stuff now.
What Euclideon is doing is physically impossible, it's impossible to increase the level of detail without any kind of drawback, be it CPU time or memory. And they are not telling what the drawbacks are so they are hiding something.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Spaceman McConaughey

It's not physically impossible seeing as the proof is right there. Drawbacks or not, it's proven by them to be physically possible.

Blizzard

September 27, 2011, 05:53:12 am #24 Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 05:54:52 am by Blizzard
Eh, I already said that you can prerecord these things easily. Yet, I'm not saying it's prerecorded. I am saying that in a real situation where you don't just use the same model over and over, there would be memory problems.
A particle traveling faster than light is obviously physically possible. That doesn't automatically make it usable by the general public.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Spaceman McConaughey

They acknowledged that already, and I still do not see how it will all be a problem. Computers advance FAST.

AngryPacman

Quote from: Tuggernuts on September 27, 2011, 04:47:16 am
What country?
Australia, the country whose government was in question :|
G_G's a silly boy.

Spaceman McConaughey

Quote from: AngryPacman on September 27, 2011, 07:37:35 am
Quote from: Tuggernuts on September 27, 2011, 04:47:16 am
What country?
Australia, the country whose government was in question :|


Well, you said our, so I got confused, as I live in America. But now I realize exactly what you were saying. Sorry. xP

Blizzard

Quote from: Tuggernuts on September 27, 2011, 05:55:54 am
They acknowledged that already, and I still do not see how it will all be a problem. Computers advance FAST.


Where do they acknowledge that? Terabytes of RAM is not something that will be available soon.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

winkio

I think they are handling data in an entirely different way.  There is no way they have the whole point cloud for the entire island loaded at once, as you say, at least as individual points.  They likened it to a library where instead of all the books in one pile on the floor, they are organized by category on the shelves.  They could probably handle the point data by organizing it with a hierarchy so that only the top level is loaded into ram, and then everything else is loaded from a file as needed.  Or maybe with their data compression, they could use equations or sparse matrices to describe the data and then it could all fit into RAM at once easily.

Spaceman McConaughey

Quote from: Blizzard on September 27, 2011, 09:11:02 am
Quote from: Tuggernuts on September 27, 2011, 05:55:54 am
They acknowledged that already, and I still do not see how it will all be a problem. Computers advance FAST.


Where do they acknowledge that? Terabytes of RAM is not something that will be available soon.


I pretty much said they acknowledged that there is a lot of repetition, not sure what you're going on about. :P

Subsonic_Noise

I'm not a profressional at this, but I think they might use raytracing, meaning that there are actual "lightrays" being processed and actually only what you see is fully loaded. Probably not done exactly like this, but it might be something along those lines.

Blizzard

September 27, 2011, 11:00:48 am #32 Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 11:34:14 am by Blizzard
They acknowledged repetition, not high RAM usage. I mean having many different objects would require each object to be stored somewhere and loading them from a HDD on demand is too slow. Keeping them in RAM the whole time requires too much RAM. I really don't know how they have solved that problem.

I watched the 24 minutes interview that winkio posted. They are backing up their claims, but they are not really answering any of the problematic questions. He mentioned sorting at one point so they are probably using some sorting algorithm for their search algorithm. I just can't think of a searching algorithm that could this easily find the proper pixel and put it in a bitmap and still allow 20 fps. Even octree isn't that fast and it's complexity is log2(n). He mentioned 21 trillion atoms which would be impossible without repetition (even for an atom that needs just 1 byte, this would require 21 TB of RAM). So this can't be all solid memory. He has objects in some kind of format that are then positioned somewhere. But that clashes with an organization where a search algorithm would be useful. In any case, their search algorithm is the very backbone of this new technology. Without it, nothing would work. Because I can't think of a remotely realistic model for a search algorithm for this, I remain skeptical. I would guess that it's based on a special mathematical model abstract that isn't used in traditional physics and math. e.g. 3D projection is already handled with transformation matrices. These guys probably have a whole different approach. He even said that he had to reinvent rotation and scaling which pretty much lets me come to the conclusion that he isn't even using matrices. That's the only way I could think that something like this would be possible.

Don't get me wrong, I am impressed by what they have done. But they leave up way too many open questions for me to be convinced. I'm not saying it's some kind of trick or whatever, but some things simply don't make sense and until I see the finished product, I will remain skeptical. If they are really doing what they claim, then they simply have to have done it in a way that hasn't been done before (as I mentioned matrices in 3D graphics nowadays). I understand that they don't want to release any data into the public or otherwise some big companies could simply replicate what they are doing and even be done before they are (they are just 9 people after all, imagine what a 90 people team could do). Heck, I even want them to succeed in whatever they are doing. But until they come clean, I will stay skeptical.

@Sub: No, in the 24 minutes interview, their representative states that he isn't using raytracing. Raytracing is way too slow to be able to squeeze this kind of performance out without even using a GPU. In fact, it's none of the known techniques. This is why I believe that they aren't even using traditional methods of 3D rendering. They can't even use traditional methods because their system is completely different.

EDIT: Now I remembered something else that's weird. In the interview the reporter asks about bump mapping. With this method there is no bump mapping, you already have atoms, but the guy said that they will implement bump mapping which doesn't make any sense. Either he didn't hear the question right, he didn't pay attention to the question or he didn't want to answer it because he'd either reveal too much information or something harmful to their claims. In any case, these guys are hiding something, be it a new 3D rendering technology from the ground up or the truth behind a skillfully manufactured scam. I hope it's the former, because to me everything indicates this.

EDIT:
@winkio: You said you know somebody who's working on something similar, right? Am I right with my assumption that this is a completely new approach to rendering 3D space? That would be some massive out-of-the-box thinking, don't you think?
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

winkio

Yeah, this professor is researching new ways of modeling 3D objects.  I don't really think I have the freedom to talk about what he is currently doing in detail, but here is some of his past work with subdivision: http://www.subdivision.org/index.html.  You can see that by looking at the demos, just a few points of data can represent an entire complex curved object.  What I was getting at was that there may be ways to represent the atoms through density functions or other constructions that make the actual data size very small.

Blizzard

September 27, 2011, 02:14:33 pm #34 Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 02:17:26 pm by Blizzard
Right, I totally forgot about that. There are tons of ways to generate polygons and 3D artists do it all the time during modelling. I think that this is a completely new way of actually even rendering the 3D space, not just representation of objects in a 3D space. In any case, I'll take a quick look at it. Thanks for the info.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Ryex

I too really hope that they aren't pulling the wool over our eyes. but I'm extremely skeptical.

we all know for a fact that they can;t just be storing the entire point cloud as solid data , it's physically impossible. so they have to be abstracting the point cloud somehow to either a completely different object model or a algorithm that is capable of generating the point data at incredible speeds. Frankly I find it only slightly less improbable that they have a procedural generation algorithm capable of generating complex real objects in point cloud form at any sort of real time speed.

so it's up in the air. the only way their claims are possible is if they have a completely new way of representing the objects in memory. a way that represent un godly amount of atoms inside the roughly 2.5Gb of RAM available to them on the standard gaming computer. a way that can translate that data to a render able point cloud at any distance, scale, or orientation. and for this tech to be useable in a game it also has to be able to animate a point cloud in real time.

to those of us who understand how exiting tech works this claim SCREAMS impossible. it breaks laws of whats possible on current hardware like the string theory breaks the universal gravitational constant.

so please pardon us for maintaining a healthy level of skepticism and trying to instill such in you. Until I can hold their product in my hand (or hold it in my computers memory to be more technical) I'm not going to get my hopes up that the dream of unlimited detail graphics is even remotely possible.
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Blizzard

September 27, 2011, 04:27:34 pm #36 Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 04:30:20 pm by Blizzard
Whenever I hear him say the word "unlimited", I become more skeptical. :/ There is no such thing as unlimited. It feels like one of those pyramid schemes.

The only thing that is somewhat convincing is the actual demo show in the interview even if it could have been easily pre-rendered or manipulated into the recording afterwards. It's not like that hasn't been done before, it's technically quite easy to fake a recording like that. And frankly, the video looked a bit weird to me as there seems to be no light reflection on the screen whatsoever. It's just weird, that's all I'm saying.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Spaceman McConaughey

September 29, 2011, 08:54:04 pm #37 Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 09:14:11 pm by Tuggernuts
You're all seriously over-thinking it now. I'm not even kidding.

*removed* I'll just keep that there, though. Because you guys HONESTLY are over-thinking it.

winkio

I see nothing wrong with the discussion in this thread.  It is all very interesting and very much on topic.  You can't expect to control everyone's thoughts and make them all write the same comments as you.

Spaceman McConaughey

Quote from: winkio on September 29, 2011, 09:02:07 pm
I see nothing wrong with the discussion in this thread.  It is all very interesting and very much on topic.  You can't expect to control everyone's thoughts and make them all write the same comments as you.


Meh, I guess. Not really trying to make them think the same anyways. :P