Author Topic: An idea for the next generation of MMO  (Read 5278 times)

Offline tSwitch

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Re: An idea for the next generation of MMO
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2014, 02:33:32 AM »
Yeah, like I said, I didn't really think of it that way (or, shit, I honestly didn't even know).

I mean, I wasn't demanding it, or anything.
Just saying I want it to go in that direction, since I would assume at this point, it's perfectly viable.

You're right, it is viable, thats why games are doing it.
I'm just saying that due to markets, niches, differing opinions, and creative decisions, you will NOT get your wish, and it is better that way.

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Offline locowhiteknight

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Re: An idea for the next generation of MMO
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2014, 03:04:09 AM »
Diablo 2  LOD to me, was a near perfect multiplayer action rpg game. Of course it wasn't always such a great game, but after version 9.0 on, it was spectacular. I realize Diablo 2 isn't an MMO, but since I have little to no experience with MMO's like WOW, this will need to suffice as a standard for my references.

What made the game great:

1. Joining the ladder:

Upon joining a new ladder all players start at level one with a brand new economy. After a specified period of time (months)  the ladder resets and a new one starts. At the end of a ladder your character is placed into open battle.net where you could continue adventuring with your character if you so desired.

What I like about the ladder:

You always have a relatively fresh economy and the game just feels new every time it resets.

What I dislike about the ladder:
It's painful to let your favorite character go to open battle.net knowing that it is full of hackers, and has a broken economy. Basically when the ladder resets, there is no reason to continue playing your character.

2. Trading

Trading was a major part of Diablo 2 that I think the developers of Diablo 3 failed to understand. When I played Diablo 2 back in the day, over 50% of my time was spent monitoring the trade chat looking for good deals on gear.

What I like about trading:

You spend all of this time in the game killing monsters for loot. That's the basis of a good ARPG. Every kill was like putting a coin in a slot machine: you never knew what you might find; most likely nothing, but there was always that chance you'd find something godly. The drops were rare enough that trading was a necessity. It was fun and entertaining to set up deals and trades with other players.
  
I liked the fact that other players could scam an unwary player. That is some excellent roleplaying on their part. They were crafty enough to trick another player into making a bad deals, using bait and switch techniques.
  
What I dislike about trading:

I guess anytime real money is involved it ruins the economy too quickly. Also, the prevalence of bots advertising sites to purchase equipment ruins the gaming experience.

3. Looting:

I always thought it was a blast to join up with a bunch of players and run a boss hoping to find a good piece of gear.

What I like about looting:

 I liked the fact that it was a free-for-all, in that whatever dropped was given to the first person to grab it. Some people would try to dictate the rules of the run, stating that whatever dropped from should go to the host, but you could never really trust the people that were adventuring with you. This further deepened the roleplaying aspect of the game in which few other games have been capable of achieving, because you were emotionally invested in the game. When you were the high level character performing boss runs, and somebody stole one of the good drops (a unique ring for example) there is nothing more infuriating. But that to me is what makes it great. People could actually roleplay thieves in this game. I don't think this was an intentional design choice, this or the scammers in the trading, but it greatly deepened the gaming experience. It made the world feel, unsafe and sketchy.  

What I dislike about looting:

I guess this doesn't apply to just this game, but all games with looting in general. Every type of item needs to have a use or a way to make it useful. Either by selling, crafting, converting, etc... I don't like to see items that have absolutely no way to derive a use out of them.

4. Character Building:
It's fun to understand the rules of the game you're playing and creating a character that can thrive under those harsh conditions.

What I like about character building:
 This gives you a chance to think about all the different ways you can create a truly badass character. That is why we enjoy playing the heroes and heroines isn't it.

What I dislike about character building:
I'm not a fan of respecing. I think perhaps there is a way it can be included into a game in a limited way without negatively affecting game-play too severely. I would maybe make it a one time reward for a difficult quest.

It's getting late, I'll try to post something more on track tomorrow.    
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 03:34:39 AM by locowhiteknight »
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Re: An idea for the next generation of MMO
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2014, 04:15:35 AM »
The problem is that is there are so few effective ways of scaling the game while still providing a sense of progression that doesn't reliy on levels.

personally I like the idea of skill based scaling. in that you gain new skills and learn to use your current ones more effectively. I only really sees these kinds of systems in highly competitive games like LoL and S4Leage though. I think that;s because in order to provide an engaging experience after someone gets the hang of it is that it requires a scaling AI difficulty that can either be easily outscailed by a real player (AI ability limit, ie LoL's Bots) or near impossible to learn with SSB:M level 9 bots?

It a very difficult balance.
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Re: An idea for the next generation of MMO
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2014, 06:41:31 AM »
Yeah, like I said, I didn't really think of it that way (or, shit, I honestly didn't even know).

I mean, I wasn't demanding it, or anything.
Just saying I want it to go in that direction, since I would assume at this point, it's perfectly viable.

You're right, it is viable, thats why games are doing it.
I'm just saying that due to markets, niches, differing opinions, and creative decisions, you will NOT get your wish, and it is better that way.

Do you HAVE to be so confrontational?
And honestly, since newer MMOs seem to be adopting this type of combat, it seems like I don't even have to wish for it.
Before long, MMOs featuring the (already) archaic battle systems will be in the minority, and I will be happy.

So, yeah, weather I wish for it or not, it's happening. Sorry.

EDIT:
Also, feel free to reply, but I don't feel like getting into an argument with you (this seems like it will go there), so I've nothing further to add to this particular discussion.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 06:54:07 AM by Colonel Blinx »

Offline tSwitch

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Re: An idea for the next generation of MMO
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2014, 04:48:43 PM »
Do you HAVE to be so confrontational?
And honestly, since newer MMOs seem to be adopting this type of combat, it seems like I don't even have to wish for it.
Before long, MMOs featuring the (already) archaic battle systems will be in the minority, and I will be happy.

So, yeah, weather I wish for it or not, it's happening. Sorry.

EDIT:
Also, feel free to reply, but I don't feel like getting into an argument with you (this seems like it will go there), so I've nothing further to add to this particular discussion.

I'm not being confrontational here, I'm just offering a difference in philosophy as to what would be 'good' for the genre.  I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to do this...as it is the subject of the topic after all.

You want the genre to appeal more heavily to your tastes, and I want the genre to be diverse and innovative, appealing to a variety of tastes.  That, and I don't necessarily believe that action MMO's are inherently better, but I wasn't attempting to make that point, as it is entirely subjective, and you are more than allowed your opinion.

I'm not saying you can't want what you want, and enjoy what you want, or that your opinion is wrong.  You're also totally right that "action" MMO's are getting more common, and I think they will stay common, but that facet of the genre still needs a little R&D in my opinion.  That's another conversation entirely, however.

I'm just saying that if every MMO was an action MMO, that would be bad for the genre, as it would be stagnant and homogenous.  It is a sign of a healthy genre that we have games with such drastically different gameplay.  You can easily pick between EVE, GW2, TERA, FFXIV, WoW, and a myriad of other games based on a number of crucial differences that make each game into their own identity.  Developers are being creative, niches are being filled, and as a whole...innovation is simply growing in the MMO scene.

I would just hate to see it return to homogeny.  We saw that already with WoW clones after WoW got successful, and it was a tiring time for MMO's as a whole.

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Re: An idea for the next generation of MMO
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2014, 10:36:23 PM »
Alright, I just have to reply so I can point this out to you:
If every MMO suddenly shifted to action battle systems, nothing is stopping them from using different types of ABS and systems in the game.

All I got from the last paragraph was that it somehow would prevent innovation, or make developers unable to do anything unique with their MMO.

Also, when I say I want MMOs to have action combat, I'm only referring to games that would benefit from it. I'm not suggesting the developers of EVE Online to put swords on peoples' space ships and let them go at it, for Christ sake. If someone wants to make an innovative MMO, more power to them.

But if someone makes an MMO set in some fantasy world, or whatever, and it has the same old shitty battle system in THIS day and age? That would be a poor decision. And geeze, you know, I don't see what's so wrong with it if you don't want things to be stagnant. Why not weed out the old battle systems and replace them with action ones?

Let's face it: you can have more variety and uniqueness in a real time action battle system than you ever could in some static... thing that just attacks for you. There is a lot of creative potential with action battle systems, and even plenty of room for innovation to set the game apart from other games that have an action battle system.

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Re: An idea for the next generation of MMO
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2014, 11:00:08 PM »
Alright, I just have to reply so I can point this out to you:
If every MMO suddenly shifted to action battle systems, nothing is stopping them from using different types of ABS and systems in the game.

All I got from the last paragraph was that it somehow would prevent innovation, or make developers unable to do anything unique with their MMO.

Also, when I say I want MMOs to have action combat, I'm only referring to games that would benefit from it. I'm not suggesting the developers of EVE Online to put swords on peoples' space ships and let them go at it, for Christ sake. If someone wants to make an innovative MMO, more power to them.

But if someone makes an MMO set in some fantasy world, or whatever, and it has the same old shitty battle system in THIS day and age? That would be a poor decision. And geeze, you know, I don't see what's so wrong with it if you don't want things to be stagnant. Why not weed out the old battle systems and replace them with action ones?

Let's face it: you can have more variety and uniqueness in a real time action battle system than you ever could in some static... thing that just attacks for you. There is a lot of creative potential with action battle systems, and even plenty of room for innovation to set the game apart from other games that have an action battle system.

You're making all of your statements based on the point that you feel Action-systems are innately superior. 
I'm saying that encouraging diversity in MMO space is a better idea than only encouraging one avenue of growth.

"Older" doesn't necessarily mean "bad."

You are absolutely free to have and voice your opinion, but I am also free to disagree with it and voice my disagreement.  I think it would be a mistake for us as a community to tell developers that only action games are worth making.

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Re: An idea for the next generation of MMO
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2014, 11:17:07 PM »
Yes, that IS what my whole point is. This is an opinionated discussion, is it not? Why would my point NOT be based off of personal opinion?

Also, isn't the old way just action, but with very limited control?
What's wrong with giving people more control?

And yes, I know you're free to disagree. That's why I'm not telling you to stop.

Offline locowhiteknight

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Re: An idea for the next generation of MMO
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2014, 01:03:55 AM »
To continue on from my last post, and to tie this into Winkio's idea for the next step for MMOs.

I like your idea for a Dungeon Master styled AI, that can track certain statistics of gameplay, to generate a more dynamic and satisfying gaming experience. You seem to dismiss new technology (VR) as being gimmicky, and most likely not the saving grace for MMO shortcomings. My argument in favor of VR for MMOs is not very strong as of late  :'(, but I think it (VR) will be part of the next evolutionary step for MMOs for sure.

So here's a bulleted list of items I think a good MMO should strive for:

1. A fully realized fantasy world with enemies you don't have to feel bad about killing. I hate when I feel guilty about killing monsters. I'm playing a fantasy game, I want to kill monsters and find loot.
 
2. I would like to see a combat system implemented similar to Dark Souls or Bushido Blade. Something bordering on simulation, but still very strategic.
 
3.  A game designed with VR in mind. Just the goggles though, not anything that requires any actual effort or movement on the player's part.

4.  A compelling overarching story that gives your adventuring a purpose. This is where Diablo 2 really shined for me. There wasn't much of a story, but the cinematics did a good of job of creating a sense of purpose to your chase after the wanderer.

5. I want a world where your decisions matter. I like the way Dark Souls handled multiplayer, though it could have been much better. But I thought it was interesting how they incorporated the multiverse/world angle to explain how changes in one world wouldn't affect changes in another. This would fit perfectly with an MMO where you could kill important NPC's and need to live with your decisions. Of course not just kill NPC's but offend people, or make enemies,  choose sides, etc...

6. I always look to Dungeons and Dragons 2nd edition as being the pinnacle of the character creation process. Any formula that stays relatively close to this kind of character creation would be fine with me.
 
7. Covenants in Dark Souls were handled extremely well and I would like to similar mechanics incorporated into MMOs.
 
8. Trading would need to be a big part of the experience. While I liked Diablo 2's trading, I think it would have been better if there was a place you could go with your characters, like a tavern, to trade.
 
9. Make the loot a free-for-all, and keep items random and the good stuff rare. Let people role play as theives and let heroes/heroines be cautious of who they choose to join them on an adventure.

10. Incorporate a Ladder system so the game stays fresh. Also, it might be cool if you could transform a high level character at the end of a Ladder season, into a useful item that a "descendant" character could take with him into the new Ladder season.

11. Maybe Steam could create a reputation system similar to Ebay to help keep track of hackers and spammers.

I'm out of time again... lol...
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 02:28:56 AM by locowhiteknight »
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Re: An idea for the next generation of MMO
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2014, 06:04:31 AM »
Yes, that IS what my whole point is. This is an opinionated discussion, is it not? Why would my point NOT be based off of personal opinion?

Also, isn't the old way just action, but with very limited control?
What's wrong with giving people more control?

And yes, I know you're free to disagree. That's why I'm not telling you to stop.

It's sort of real-time but I would argue it's not an action system.
I'd consider GW2 to be action, and typical MMO's are sort of like an ATB based game ( because of the Global Cooldowns ).

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Re: An idea for the next generation of MMO
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2014, 06:36:36 AM »
I meant in the sense that you initiate and watch action-y stuff play out, albeit you can't do any more than that.
I just think more control over the combat in some fantasy MMO or whatever is nice.

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Re: An idea for the next generation of MMO
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2014, 07:17:00 AM »
I want to offer a 3rd perspective on the innovation discussion: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Cxhs-GLE29Q
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Re: An idea for the next generation of MMO
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2014, 07:56:28 AM »
@locowhiteknight: It's funny that we can love the same games but for different reasons. XD For example, I would never even begin to think of other people being able to steal my hard earned items as a positive thing. Ever. One of the changes I actually didn't mind in D3 was the personalized loot drops. I do really like your emphasis on the role-playing aspect of things. You know, it kind of makes me think, it would be really awesome to have an MMO with some actual D&D-style role-playing, as you mentioned. Of course, it would almost be an entirely different GENRE than MMOs like WoW, which has little to no role-playing in the traditional sense, instead focusing on the "role-playing" aspect of statistical character development.

I really like both forms of role-playing, so it would be fun to see them in an actual MMO together. Of course, character-based role-play from the traditional standpoint would require a lot more cooperation between characters, and players would have to be willing to accept some set limits on the extent to which they are able to role-play their characters. (eg., you can't win a fight through narration of your actions; it would be up to the game mechanics and your character stats) It would also take some clever programming to make it immersive enough to work. Once again, having some advanced winkio-sytled AI would do the trick. Anyway, I'm rambling now.

I want to offer a 3rd perspective on the innovation discussion: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Cxhs-GLE29Q

Definitely some interesting figures. (On a completely and totally unrelated note, the narrator guy really irked me for some reason. Not sure why. Anyway, solid ideas and data.) On that note, perhaps one reason that each new WoW-styled game fails to achieve the commercial success that WoW has is because WoW itself is still around, albeit quite a bit different in its current incarnation from its original form. If Super Mario Brothers received regular content and graphical updates along the same lines as WoW, the original game would probably still be alive and kicking in markets today, (console generation gap notwithstanding, of course.)

@NAMK and Blinx's conversation: Kind of like what I said to locowhiteknight, it's almost as if we're looking at too broad of a genre entirely. Almost like taking Amnesia and Call of Duty and balling them together into "first-person games." I think each type of game appeals to different people. For example, I recently played both FFXIV, which was a "WoW-styled" combat system, and Phantasy Star Online 2, which is more along the lines of what I think Blinx has in mind. They felt completely different! Now, I'm sure that there were more differences in them than simply the type of combat system. The player-base, setting, and even method of payment (F2P versus subscription-based,) among other things, were different between the two games. Regardless, they definitely played very differently, and I would even go so far as to put them into two genres as distinct and separate as Fallout 2 and Final Fantasy VI. Both are "RPGs" but people often make the distinction between "WRPGs" and "JRPGs." Maybe a similar distinction could be made in the MMO market.

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Re: An idea for the next generation of MMO
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2014, 08:02:53 AM »
Maybe a similar distinction could be made in the MMO market.

When we're looking at them as being different genres in the MMO market, that makes more sense.


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« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 08:04:49 AM by Colonel Blinx »

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Re: An idea for the next generation of MMO
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2014, 08:27:44 AM »
The way he talks is annoying, I agree. But he makes some interesting points as whether innovation is being driven forward the right way or at all. I mean sure, Nintendo does innovate and they are probably the only ones with the balls to do so. But it's kind of sad that the same game released each year over and over has blasting sales like that. Even when you take into account that the number of people who play has increased over the last 20 years, it does not change the facts much.
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Re: An idea for the next generation of MMO
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2014, 08:42:54 AM »
Yeah, definitely. He does talk annoyingly.

And yeah, definitely to that other thing.

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Re: An idea for the next generation of MMO
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2014, 05:15:41 PM »
I dunno, I can do a lot of things in Mabinogi -- And its not just click and kill either, they have different combat elements but I think its implemented pretty well...mostly. There is a freedom to the game as well so its not all bad.
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