RMXP: Now wut? (Due to nerd rage)

[RoseSkye]

Due to nerd rage I am giving a warning. This post is not serious, this post is speculative. This post is an unreal pie in the sky situation much like "What if you found a million dollars in the street". I am gravely unsettled that I have to explain this even with the context of the first post below.

This post is just a "What would you do in this situation" post. Please don't go on a lynch party because of a post that has never happened. It is just a light-hearted post.. really.

You've been anxious to finish your project for awhile.. and you finally finish it after 3 years or so.
People admire it and it does well. It makes it to a few 'video game' shows on G4, you win some awards. Lets go pie in the sky and say that a small video game company wants to buy rights. Even though you  make a killing off of this RMXP project you dont have time to do another game.

Now what?

[Kagutsuchi]

Well, game making IS a job after all ^^ Option nr. 1 here =D

[G_G]

I dont plan on making money off of rmxp. I almost did but my laptop suffered in a terrible magnet storm....So I'm just going to experiment with different programs. Lately I've been messing with game maker 7 and rmvx. Trying to learn both of their scripting languages

[Blizzard]

Voted for the last option. RMXP game for 3 years? You actually think you can make money worth of the work for 3 years? Don't be so naive. There are 3 things you are overlooking.

1. Publishers don't like independent developers. If you don't come there boasting that you paid for an Unreal Engine license (of which the newest version costs $170,000, if I'm not wrong, for ONLY 1 GAME), you have not the slightest chance to get any serious publisher. No serious publisher means no heavy marketing (marketing is expensive). No marketing means no sellings. No sellings means no money.

2. You can make a game in 3 months that will earn you more money. Currently casual games (read: shitty games) sell quite well and if you can manage to make a few games, you'll earn enough money that you can actually spend a whole year working on a bigger project. Why do casual games sell so good? They don't. But if a few thousand "copies" can be sold, you've earned quite a bit of money. And the marketing is practically free for you as the DRM sites and game portals do the marketing themselves.

3. One-man projects might be nice since you earn all the money, but the success and game complexity is quite low. Today games are done in teams. I'm not talking about teams of 7 people, I'm talking about teams of 50-100 and more people. When you have something to show as portfolio (such as 10 smaller, rather popular casual games created over the period of 3 years), you should have a decent chance to work on a big project and/or get a job at a serious game dev company.

Conclusion:
Even if you get one of the game portals to sell you're game, it will be for some miserable money. Casual gamers won't buy it because it's not an actual casual game. Hardcore gamers won't buy it because it's a "shitty game with cheap and old graphics". The rest won't buy it because there is a small chance that they will ever find out about your game. Why? The game portals' marketing isn't really something. If you can sell 1000 copies of an RMXP game, wow. Be happy. If they sell it for $20, this means $20,000 earnings. When you subtract their part and the taxes, you'll probably end up with $5,000. Congratulations. You've worked your ass off for 3 years for poor $5,000. Great job.

[RoseSkye]

Voted for the last option. RMXP game for 3 years? You actually think you can make money worth of the work for 3 years? Don't be so naive. There are 3 things you are overlooking.

1. Publishers don't like independent developers. If you don't come there boasting that you paid for an Unreal Engine license (of which the newest version costs $170,000, if I'm not wrong, for ONLY 1 GAME), you have not the slightest chance to get any serious publisher. No serious publisher means no heavy marketing (marketing is expensive). No marketing means no sellings. No sellings means no money.

2. You can make a game in 3 months that will earn you more money. Currently casual games (read: shitty games) sell quite well and if you can manage to make a few games, you'll earn enough money that you can actually spend a whole year working on a bigger project. Why do casual games sell so good? They don't. But if a few thousand "copies" can be sold, you've earned quite a bit of money. And the marketing is practically free for you as the DRM sites and game portals do the marketing themselves.

3. One-man projects might be nice since you earn all the money, but the success and game complexity is quite low. Today games are done in teams. I'm not talking about teams of 7 people, I'm talking about teams of 50-100 and more people. When you have something to show as portfolio (such as 10 smaller, rather popular casual games created over the period of 3 years), you should have a decent chance to work on a big project and/or get a job at a serious game dev company.

Conclusion:
Even if you get one of the game portals to sell you're game, it will be for some miserable money. Casual gamers won't buy it because it's not an actual casual game. Hardcore gamers won't buy it because it's a "shitty game with cheap and old graphics". The rest won't buy it because there is a small chance that they will ever find out about your game. Why? The game portals' marketing isn't really something. If you can sell 1000 copies of an RMXP game, wow. Be happy. If they sell it for $20, this means $20,000 earnings. When you subtract their part and the taxes, you'll probably end up with $5,000. Congratulations. You've worked your ass off for 3 years for poor $5,000. Great job.

.. o.O Way to take a light hearted post seriously. I've been on RMXP for one year, you've been on for three.. so.. ... yeah...

Come on, Blizz.. who in here completed a huge game? Noone in RMXP in CP has done it except for you.. and you're getting upset at me for making a hypothetical, don't take it serious, 'what if' thread. 

Also hardcore gamers WILL buy it. That's why they are HARDCORE. >=/
You know Retro gamers.

[legacyblade]

He's not getting upset, just telling you how totally unrealistic it is.

[RoseSkye]

This topic? Unrealistic? Naaaaaaaaaw.

I mean I even said in the first post "pie in the sky" which is a phrase for "Yeah, that'll never happen". Of course, who would of known that someone would come in the thread with their 4chan helmets on and nerd rage over a hypothetical situation.. that makes two of you.

This is one of the "what if you find a million bucks in the middle of the street" posts.. except RMXP. Jeez, taking internet way too seriously.

[Kagutsuchi]

Please, don't feed the troll.. (Blizzard)

[legacyblade]

Oh, I wasn't trying to come in on the rampage. I think it'd be freaking sweet if someone could do this. However, I think until he gains enough games to create a decent continued revenue, he should keep his dayjob. The chances of that ever happening are about the chances of someone writing a series as popular as Harry Potter, but it can happen. However, there are non-best seller authors that manage to support themself solely on writing due to sheer mass of products they produce. While in games this generally requires mass production of crappy games, it can work. (though it is not likely, as has been pointed out by other users)

[RoseSkye]

Please, don't feed the troll.. (Blizzard)

*Covers Kagu's mouth*
Shh don't insult god. He'll smite you with the ban hammer.. and me for questioning him.

All Hail Blizzard! ALL HAIL THE KING OF RGSS!

Oh, I wasn't trying to come in on the rampage. I think it'd be freaking sweet if someone could do this. However, I think until he gains enough games to create a decent continued revenue, he should keep his dayjob. The chances of that ever happening are about the chances of someone writing a series as popular as Harry Potter, but it can happen. However, there are non-best seller authors that manage to support themself solely on writing due to sheer mass of products they produce. While in games this generally requires mass production of crappy games, it can work. (though it is not likely, as has been pointed out by other users)

Again the concept of hypothetical, woosh.. over your head.

[legacyblade]

I was stating it as a hypothetical course of action  *rereads first post*

oh, I missed this part

Lets go pie in the sky and say that a small video game company wants to buy rights.

Sorry. Well in that case, then that would be like publishing harry potter. In that case, then I'd say freaking quit your day job, and make a squeal to the game, lol Not a dumb cookie cutter squeal, but something original that still relates to the first one. Since you're now working on this full time, and might even have the funds to hire some help (like commissioning a spriter or an artist), then you'd be able to make the sequal much faster, and it'd probably be better. Sorry, I missed part of the hypothetical situation presented in the first post.

[fugibo]

Voted for the last option. RMXP game for 3 years? You actually think you can make money worth of the work for 3 years? Don't be so naive. There are 3 things you are overlooking.

1. Publishers don't like independent developers. If you don't come there boasting that you paid for an Unreal Engine license (of which the newest version costs $170,000, if I'm not wrong, for ONLY 1 GAME), you have not the slightest chance to get any serious publisher. No serious publisher means no heavy marketing (marketing is expensive). No marketing means no sellings. No sellings means no money.

2. You can make a game in 3 months that will earn you more money. Currently casual games (read: shitty games) sell quite well and if you can manage to make a few games, you'll earn enough money that you can actually spend a whole year working on a bigger project. Why do casual games sell so good? They don't. But if a few thousand "copies" can be sold, you've earned quite a bit of money. And the marketing is practically free for you as the DRM sites and game portals do the marketing themselves.

3. One-man projects might be nice since you earn all the money, but the success and game complexity is quite low. Today games are done in teams. I'm not talking about teams of 7 people, I'm talking about teams of 50-100 and more people. When you have something to show as portfolio (such as 10 smaller, rather popular casual games created over the period of 3 years), you should have a decent chance to work on a big project and/or get a job at a serious game dev company.

Conclusion:
Even if you get one of the game portals to sell you're game, it will be for some miserable money. Casual gamers won't buy it because it's not an actual casual game. Hardcore gamers won't buy it because it's a "shitty game with cheap and old graphics". The rest won't buy it because there is a small chance that they will ever find out about your game. Why? The game portals' marketing isn't really something. If you can sell 1000 copies of an RMXP game, wow. Be happy. If they sell it for $20, this means $20,000 earnings. When you subtract their part and the taxes, you'll probably end up with $5,000. Congratulations. You've worked your ass off for 3 years for poor $5,000. Great job.

I voted the last option because I was lazy. 0_o

[Fantasist]

I voted for the last one. Well, as for this thread being 'hypothetical', I dunno... It looked like a genuine question to me, with the poll and all. And in defense of Blizz, he wasn't taking anything out on anybody. I found his post the most enlightening in this thread.

PS: And talking about taking internet too seriously, I'm surprised the word "troll" even came up here, now THAT's what I call making something serious over nothing O_o

EDIT:

*Covers Kagu's mouth*
Shh don't insult god. He'll smite you with the ban hammer.. and me for questioning him.

All Hail Blizzard! ALL HAIL THE KING OF RGSS!

Geez, I think Blizz can take some criticism, provided it's genuine...

[RoseSkye]

I voted for the last one. Well, as for this thread being 'hypothetical', I dunno... It looked like a genuine question to me, with the poll and all. And in defense of Blizz, he wasn't taking anything out on anybody. I found his post the most enlightening in this thread.

PS: And talking about taking internet too seriously, I'm surprised the word "troll" even came up here, now THAT's what I call making something serious over nothing O_o

EDIT:

*Covers Kagu's mouth*
Shh don't insult god. He'll smite you with the ban hammer.. and me for questioning him.

All Hail Blizzard! ALL HAIL THE KING OF RGSS!

Geez, I think Blizz can take some criticism, provided it's genuine...

"You've been anxious to finish your project for awhile.. and you finally finish it after 3 years or so.
People admire it and it does well. It makes it to a few 'video game' shows on G4, you win some awards. Lets go pie in the sky and say that a small video game company wants to buy rights. Even though you  make a killing off of this RMXP project you dont have time to do another game.

Now what?"

Idiom Definition for 'Pie in the sky'
If an idea or scheme is pie in the sky, it is utterly impractical.

Impractical
   impractical - not practical; not workable or not given to practical matters

Practical
        Level-headed, efficient, and unspeculative

Unspeculative
        Not Given to conjecture or speculation.

There is no way shape or form this is a topic that is to be taken seriously. Its a what would you do in this situation topic.. no matter how you look at it. Allbeit possible in the realms of slim chance, close to zero.. its unfeasible. The thread as I said was a question "WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF THIS HAPPENED TO YOU" not "Is this even possible?".

I shudder at the thought if I said "What would you do if you found a billion dollars in the street" and someone came into the thread calling me naive and saying how impossible it is.

[Fantasist]

Oh this is getting out of my hand. We're just playing with words here and I'm not good with that game, so I'll stop here. No hard feelings

PS: OK, this thread might be lighthearted, but the topic itself is interesting, to me at least. But hey, I now have a much better understanding of "Pie in the sky"

[Blizzard]

Lol, no. I didn't want to come over as upset. I'm just telling you the harsh truth. ._. Because I love you. <3

[RoseSkye]

Lol, no. I didn't want to come over as upset. I'm just telling you the harsh truth. ._. Because I love you. <3

Oh Blizz. I love you..

Spoiler: ShowHide

 ..r candied ass dripped in cake frosting

too.

[Blizzard]

In any case, the biggest problem is the expensive marketing. This is what is preventing you from being successful with just one game without investing loads of money first (either marketing yourself or using a brand engine that you paid for to make the game so big developers will take you seriously).

Hardcore gamers don't play oldschool RPGs. They play new stuff that can't be even run on low-end graphic cards or lags like hell on them. If you don't have Oblivion/Crysis graphics, you can forget that hardcore gamers will buy your games. That's why they are hardcore. They have "professional" hardware. People like that have the latest graphic cards in SLI/Crossfire mode, mice on 4000 dpi precision and even mouse mats they pay $100 for. And that's just their basic equipment. :/

[RoseSkye]

.. You're still on that? I gave the scenario however unrealistic it is. You are to comment on THAT scenario.
I want to know what you'll do in THAT scenario.


Also.. you're getting hardcore gamers and casual gamers mixed.
Hardcore gamer would be like my spriter. He collects all sorts of games recent or old.

Hardcore gamers are the type of gamers like Angry Video Game Nerd.
Casual gamers are the type that'll only play good graphic games, end.

You're explaining casual gamers to me and passing them off as hardcore. IF this topic was about that I would say.. dude, Blizz.. no. However, its not.. so I'll spare you of the links.

Speaking of links.. I should have put this in forum games.. but I didnt know anyone like *cough*Blizzard*cough* would not read the first post.

[Blizzard]

.. You're still on that? I gave the scenario however unrealistic it is. You are to comment on THAT scenario.
I want to know what you'll do in THAT scenario.


Also.. you're getting hardcore gamers and casual gamers mixed.
Hardcore gamer would be like my spriter. He collects all sorts of games recent or old.

Hardcore gamers are the type of gamers like Angry Video Game Nerd.
Casual gamers are the type that'll only play good graphic games, end.

You're explaining casual gamers to me and passing them off as hardcore. IF this topic was about that I would say.. dude, Blizz.. no. However, its not.. so I'll spare you of the links.

Speaking of links.. I should have put this in forum games.. but I didnt know anyone like *cough*Blizzard*cough* would not read the first post.

Very, very wrong.

Casual gamers are people that sit down for 15 minutes and play some game on their cellphones or play a hidden object game. They rather rarely play games with good graphics as they aren't really interested in games. Unlike you I won't spare you the links.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casual_gamer
I did not say that casual gamers are hardcore gamers. Don't put words in my mouth, that's not nice.

What you described as hardcore gamer, those are just game freaks or game geeks. They love pretty much any game. Hardcore gamers are people that really invest some time into getting good at a game. Hence hardcore.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardcore_gamers

It's you who mixed up the terms. Casual gamer as in casually playing. Hardcore gamer as in hardcore (skilled) player.

IMO it's quite ignorant to just come around, pull shit out of your ass even though you don't even know what you're talking about and try to convince somebody of your opinion being the facts who actually knows something about the topic. In this case you explaining me what types of gamers there are. Seriously, you have to know that stuff if you're in game development. :/



As for your other scenario...
I love you anyway. <3

[RoseSkye]

Dude.. thats wikipedia.
Like me.. someone whos hardcore into games play ALOT of games.. and has a HUGE collection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxFNcff7BME&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrVVO1coh08
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IvVMTURflw

Those "Hardcore" gamers aren't "Hardcore" because they haven't been around games that long. To someone like me that eat sleep and crap video games those gamers are just noobs that play one game all the time. A hardcore video game player will play games (with a good concept) all the time. Mainstream, or indie.. we do not give a shit. If the game is good and we haven't beaten it, we MUST beat it.

We will often keep trophies of the game to replay it over if we desire.

Those "hardcore" video gamers you keep referring to play only a few games. Therefore once again, they are casual gamers that like a game enough to become really good at it.


(We're also called basement dwellers)

[Blizzard]

I'm in gamedev business, but no. You know it all better. Fine, have it your way.

[RoseSkye]

It's a case of "You say tomato, I say tomatoe".

Its essentially the same thing but I'll defend my definition of the word tooth and nail.
Those "hardcore" gamers of your definitions are hobby gamers in my eyes.. of course we wouldn't be on this if someone would had just picked a poll and said

"Well I'm too lazy to do that even if in your scenario I was given alot of money"

but nooo you had to scratch me in the face on a topic that had never happened, and probably will never happen. Et tu, Blizz.. et tu. *single tear falls*

[G_G]

>_> Roseskye you're going in for a ban...ulta was banned for pissing off blizz and messin with him, I'd just back off and ignore it...okay so right now its just a simple over the net argument which we can stop here

Yea lets do that...okay so RMXP may not make people alot of money but it may make some. Okay so once you realize rmxp may not make you money because alot of games fail due to not having a team, yes a large team like 1 group of people doing storyboard, graphics, programming, the mapping maybe just get a smal team together and make an okay game.

Okay so then if that doesnt work try getting a few more friends. And if rmxp bores you or you realize you cant make money with it then use a different program. This program is specifically for
rpg's so maybe you need to make a 3-D game, use game maker, if you cant afford it make a simple 20-30 level platformer.

I really dont understand the topic so I'm just throwing things out here >_>

[RoseSkye]

>_> Roseskye you're going in for a ban...ulta was banned for pissing off blizz and messin with him, I'd just back off and ignore it...okay so right now its just a simple over the net argument which we can stop here

Yea lets do that...okay so RMXP may not make people alot of money but it may make some. Okay so once you realize rmxp may not make you money because alot of games fail due to not having a team, yes a large team like 1 group of people doing storyboard, graphics, programming, the mapping maybe just get a smal team together and make an okay game.

Okay so then if that doesnt work try getting a few more friends. And if rmxp bores you or you realize you cant make money with it then use a different program. This program is specifically for
rpg's so maybe you need to make a 3-D game, use game maker, if you cant afford it make a simple 20-30 level platformer.

I really dont understand the topic so I'm just throwing things out here >_>

I doubt it. Blizz would ban me for being a douche, but.. not for disagreeing with him.

[legacyblade]

^ agreed. People disagree with him all the time without bans. And it takes being a annoying prick for awhile before anything serious happens, just look at how long CW7 was around, lol

[Fantasist]

1. I second LB. (EDIT: Especially about CW7, I loled...)

2.

It's a case of "You say tomato, I say tomatoe".

As I said, playing with words.

3. This thread: interesting but slightly uncomfortable. Enjoyed it nonetheless, so a LVL-UP cookie for RoseSkye <3 *levels up*

[Blizzard]

>_> Roseskye you're going in for a ban...ulta was banned for pissing off blizz and messin with him, I'd just back off and ignore it...okay so right now its just a simple over the net argument which we can stop here

Ulta had it coming for multiple reasons. Pissing me off was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

@Roseskye: So you say professional gamers are not hardcore? I wouldn't agree on that. :/

[RoseSkye]

>_> Roseskye you're going in for a ban...ulta was banned for pissing off blizz and messin with him, I'd just back off and ignore it...okay so right now its just a simple over the net argument which we can stop here

Ulta had it coming for multiple reasons. Pissing me off was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

@Roseskye: So you say professional gamers are not hardcore? I wouldn't agree on that. :/

Pro gamers are pro gamers

Hardcore Gamers are hardcore gamers.

To me someone that spends tens of thousands of dollars on games is the definition of hardcore.. (addict).
Someone who's really good at a game would be a casual although pro.

[G_G]

bitch calling me an addict?

I spend quite a bit of money on games and game making stuff. I have all the current consoles and alot of the old ones too. So yea I know I'm a game addict and I suck at a lot of the games. I'm more of an rpg strategy guy, so fast paced action is not really me. Thats why I'm a n00b at any first person shooter.

[RoseSkye]

Blizzard wins.. Hardcore = pro gamer

[tSwitch]

3. One-man projects might be nice since you earn all the money, but the success and game complexity is quite low. Today games are done in teams. I'm not talking about teams of 7 people, I'm talking about teams of 50-100 and more people. When you have something to show as portfolio (such as 10 smaller, rather popular casual games created over the period of 3 years), you should have a decent chance to work on a big project and/or get a job at a serious game dev company.

uhm...I agree with every point except this one.
Team Fortress 2 was made and is updated by a team of 20-30 people if I'm not mistaken, in fact, I think VALVe has relatively small teams for all of their projects.
Counter Strike (the original) was started by a single modder, and it became one of the most successful mods in existence (growing larger over time and is still one of, if not the most played mod)
and I believe the original Age of Empires was made by like 6 people or something.  Idk.

I just don't think 50-100 people are -required- for a successful game.

As for me? I voted 1.  I'm going to school for game design.  I'll be damned if I don't make it my career.

It's a case of "You say tomato, I say tomatoe".

Its essentially the same thing but I'll defend my definition of the word tooth and nail.
Those "hardcore" gamers of your definitions are hobby gamers in my eyes.. of course we wouldn't be on this if someone would had just picked a poll and said

You can define it as whatever you'd like Rose, however the accepted definitions of the words are the ones Blizzard posted a page ago.  Hardcore and Casual are categories of gamers used in the dev field to help put your target audience in focus.  Hardcore gamers typically spend a lot of time on their game(s) and Casual gamers don't.  It's also a matter of what they like more.  Casual gamers aren't as much into competitive gaming as Hardcore gamers are, thus most games with multiplayer pitch towards Hardcore more towards Casual.  It's got nothing to do with how many games they have, but with how much time and effort they devote to their favorites.

[RoseSkye]

Blah blah blah I didn't read Rose's last comment so I'm just going to beat a dead horse because I love the meaty feeling of horse penis and the slimy feeling of ejaculate over my body.

Blizzard wins.. Hardcore = pro gamer

*drops the mic.. leaves the topic*

[Blizzard]

I said that pro gamers are hardcore, not that pro gamers are hardcore gamers. Pro gamers get paid for playing games. #_#

uhm...I agree with every point except this one.
Team Fortress 2 was made and is updated by a team of 20-30 people if I'm not mistaken, in fact, I think VALVe has relatively small teams for all of their projects.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that you can't have a successful game with 20-30 people. I only said that it's more usual that big games to date are usually done by larger teams. 20-30 people is not a small team.

Counter Strike (the original) was started by a single modder, and it became one of the most successful mods in existence (growing larger over time and is still one of, if not the most played mod)

The first counter strike was released 10 years ago. You are taking this out of context. You can't compare the gamedev industry from before a decade with the industry from today. That's like comparing "Windows 2005" (let's say Vista, as it was released 2006) and Windows 95 and then rant about how 95 crashed more often and was ugly compared to Vista (just the other way around).

and I believe the original Age of Empires was made by like 6 people or something.  Idk.

And Pong was done by one person. You are taking this way out of context, I'm not talking about games from the last century. The original Age of Empires was released 1997. That was the time where still mostly up to 10 people worked on games. Again, you can't compare the gamedev industry, no, the entire computer industry from before a decade to today.

I just don't think 50-100 people are -required- for a successful game.

And I never said that they are. I never even said that you require to have some mega engine like UT engine for a successful game. I said that one of the critical factors for a successful game is marketing. And you won't get any marketing "for free" from big publishers if you can't totally show off your game. Big publishers don't give a fuck even about well-known developers. How often did it happen that games from well-known developers were rejected by big publishers? And it still happens. You can imagine how much they care about small developers if they even reject games from big developing companies (e.g. Steam who wants to keep a so-called quality minimum on the games they offer). :/

As for me? I voted 1.  I'm going to school for game design.  I'll be damned if I don't make it my career.

That's cool. I'm prett much the same except for the schooling part. All I'm trying to say is pretty much that people shouldn't rush into things and take it slowly. And for god's sake, use proper gamedev software or make an own engine, don't use RMXP. xD
I had pretty much no problems to switch from RMXP to professional game development because I earned lots of experience with coding while working in RMXP. After all most of the time I spent working in RMXP without CP and about 50% of the time I spent on CP was coding. It's not that hard to get in there, but you need to make a few smaller games and earn yourself a name out there on the market before you can actually start earning money properly so you can live from it.
Not to say that there are many online publishers who wouldn't shed a tear to rob you of all profits. Read as: Steal your game, sell it and not give you a penny.

It's a case of "You say tomato, I say tomatoe".

Its essentially the same thing but I'll defend my definition of the word tooth and nail.
Those "hardcore" gamers of your definitions are hobby gamers in my eyes.. of course we wouldn't be on this if someone would had just picked a poll and said

You can define it as whatever you'd like Rose, however the accepted definitions of the words are the ones Blizzard posted a page ago.  Hardcore and Casual are categories of gamers used in the dev field to help put your target audience in focus.  Hardcore gamers typically spend a lot of time on their game(s) and Casual gamers don't.  It's also a matter of what they like more.  Casual gamers aren't as much into competitive gaming as Hardcore gamers are, thus most games with multiplayer pitch towards Hardcore more towards Casual.  It's got nothing to do with how many games they have, but with how much time and effort they devote to their favorites.

That's a definitely a good definition I can agree on. Additionally to that casual gamers often play horrible games. #_#

70% of casual gamers are women of age 30-60. They can barely turn on a computer.

Casual gamers play games that I would never even think of playing. When I saw "Dream Wedding 3" under featured games on one of the sites, I didn't know what was more shocking. That there is a game like that, that it's the 3rd sequel or that it's one of the featured games and people actually play it.

[tSwitch]

lol, I never said I was going to use RMXP for pro games, and I never claimed you said you "had" to have that many people, just that I don't think it's always necessary, all I was doing was pointing out games that were successful with small teams.  Even still, back in a time when tools were less developed, I'd think it was harder back then to make something really good.