Winning Internet Debates

Started by Blizzard, October 04, 2010, 12:23:15 pm

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Blizzard

October 04, 2010, 12:23:15 pm Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 12:32:23 pm by Blizzard
First of all...

Spoiler: ShowHide


I interpret this image like this: It doesn't matter who wins.
I am mainly making this topic because it seems that some people here couldn't really handle the recent drama properly. *points at Branden and Valdred along with a few others* And I decided to post it in Entertainment, because this is unprofessional advice. Don't go around applying what I say to every situation you can. You are solely responsible for your actions. And if I see you using this information in order to provoke fights, you will get banned.

Now, I'm not saying that you should always disregard what somebody else says. I am saying that you should debate maturely. That includes posting references, engaging and considering the arguments of the other person and drawing new conclusions from the material presented in order to form new arguments and points (which can also result in your realizing that you were wrong and if that happens, just accept it, we're all just human). But all of this this only goes for a mature debate. If somebody (in this particular case 36inc, the one who triggered the recent drama) comes along and claims stuff without ever providing any actual evidence, reference or even their own experience as evidence or reference, there is only one way to fight back (yes, fight back, not debate). I think that following a few very simple rules can dramatically increase your success with dealing with people like that. In order to understand and be able to apply the rules, you will first need some facts that apply to this situation in this context. I will mix them up here and just list what's important to keep in mind.

1. You first have to realize that this person is never going to admit that they are wrong. If they do, they will brush it off and continue with other non-sense like it's a numbers game. In the end they will say something in the manner of "I admitted that I was wrong there. I am mature. But I was right in the other 10 cases. Nahnahnahnahnahnah, you're stupider than me!" You get the idea. They don't have to actually say, it's obvious from the way they post. Sometimes they even resort to things like "I'm more mature than you because I admitted one defeat" as if it was some sort of accomplishment.

2. A person like that will ALWAYS continue the argument on any terms. Their deep-rooted need for attention is just that intense. This is a bad thing if you don't realize what I posted under 1. If you do realize that, you will understand that this is actually an advantage because you can create attention traps and they will mindlessly keep walking into them again and again (pretty much what I describe in 8, 9 and 10).

3. Don't fight on their terms. Their territory is logic. Their need for attention will cause them to engage you on multiple levels, creating several debating topics. For them this behavior has two benefits. One is obviously the attention. The other is that when one topic dies off, they can continue the argument with other topics. Usually those start to intertwine and before you know it, you are emotionally engaged yourself. People like that often have fanatic behavior so their responses are always emotionally intense. The problem here is that if they draw you into, you're losing. You could say that these people are used to being emotionally intense and when you engage them on the same level, they can beat you easier since you are in a state of mind that you are not too familiar with (see 11 for more information). Your territory is their psychology (see 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 for more information).

4. Ignore their self-invented facts. They will defend them as if their life depends on it and there's not much you can do. Approve of their actual facts. That shows them that you appreciate actual proper behavior which makes you look more mature than they are.

5. Never call them names. Instead package your insults into questions or statements with two possible negative outcomes that they can choose. The best moment to do this is when they call you names. You are in a position where you are being attacked and pointing that out along with throwing back a hidden insult of your own makes you look a lot better than them, especially since you handled it with class.
Example:
The other person calls you an idiot. Feel free to tell them "Your resorting to calling me names either shows your lack of intelligence or incompetence to handle the emotional stress." This example makes use of all 3 of the above (not calling them names, packaging insults and statements with multiple only-negative outcomes).
The point is to cut them off. Cut off one of the new threads they are starting in the debate. Don't allow them to sway away as they please. If you called me an idiot and I threw something like this example at you, what could you possibly say to redeem yourself? Nothing. The smartest move would be to shut up. And if you didn't shut up, it would make you look even worse. It's your own fault, why did you call me an idiot in the first place. :V

6. Never make aggressive statements. Ask questions instead. Don't say "You are defensive.", instead ask "Why are you being so defensive?". That way they can't call you upon it. You asked them a question. They can't say that you are judging their character, because you have made an observation and are asking about it. This establishes the fact that they are being defensive as already true and now you are building upon that. You actually went two steps forward. This also automatically opens the next topic where they are already in a losing position (see 8, 9 and 10 for more information on this). And attention whores can't resist to follow up on your new topic (even if they are losing).

7. Don't use smart sounding words that you don't know the meaning of. They can enhance the intensity of what you are saying, but if you use them in the wrong context, you will only make things worse. Better use simple wording that is effective. It's about meaning, not content.

8. Don't answer to their topics. Run one topic of your own and stick to it. If they keep complaining how everybody is uncivilized, call them out on it. Tell them how they are doing exactly the thing which annoys them (because they always do).
The harder they try to prove you are wrong in that manner, the more obvious it becomes that you are right. If you call an attention whore an attention whore, they will keep insisting that they are not. (In this particular example: When you have hooked them well enough, the moment you say that you don't care and that you don't want to continue the argument, they will probably post a huge post to get your attention back. Attention whoring to the max.)

9. Be one step ahead. It pretty much uses everything from 8. Additionally you need to realize that they will argue about anything. So why not make it about them (since it actually already is)? Call them out on their general behavior. Do some psychoanalysis (even if horribly wrong) and they will respond. And because they are responding, it means that you're fighting now on your territory where they naturally have to defend themselves.

10. Use their own tactic against them. Run several of your threads addressing several of their behavior patterns and they won't have time to talk about their topics anymore because they will be all over defending themselves from your unaggressive statements and questions. You actually never attacked them. They just think you did, they are being delusional. This is what will cause them to snap. They are already in an emotionally intense state of mind. If you drag them out of their own territory, they will lose control. Who loses control, makes mistakes. If somebody is that much of a douche, they will resort to name-calling. This means flaming and flaming results in bans. And you haven't actually done anything wrong. When you look back, you haven't been an asshole, you did not call them names, you did not snap, you did not lose control. In fact, all the time you were trying to determine what makes them act like this in order to help them remove that behavior pattern. I mean, let's face the truth: You acted like this because you knew it would piss them off. But just because you knew in advance how it would end, doesn't mean you have done the wrong thing. You have still done the best possible thing you could. Actually, despite the fact that you knew there is no help for them, you went out and tried anyway.

11. Always remain calm. Remember that everybody is different and reacts differently to different situations. It's not about you and it's not your fault. It's about them. They are the ones acting inappropriately. But also keep in mind that behavior patterns can be generalized. An attention whore will ALWAYS act the same way with MAYBE a small deviation here and there, though, over 90% of the behavior will be the same. We are all humans. A psychological disorder affects anybody of us in the same way, regardless of what some people believe.

12. Some people don't want to be helped. I know that with these information and tools you have the power to actually help people that are causing trouble, but they won't accept your help. They view you as an enemy (not because you pissed them off but because you handled everything so much better) and they would never accept your help. So don't waste time on trying to help them. Run the game on them and watch them lose, there's nothing more you can do.

Summary: If you remain calm and draw them into your reality, they will eventually lose control and you win. The winner is the one that can handle the situation better. But remember, this goes for drama and arguments, not for ACTUAL debates. In actual debates this kind of behavior makes you just look immature. You could look at it like this: There are 4 levels of drama. One is actual debate, the next is psychological warfare, then attention whoring and the lowest is simple inexperience. Actual debate beats psychological warfare and attention whoring, but psychological warfare is a lot stronger against attention whoring than actual debate (usually actual debate is quite ineffective if the other person is stubborn). Actual debate and psychological warfare can't beat simple inexperience, they are simply too far away. But attention whoring kills simple inexperience.

As for the ethical dilemma: I understand that it's not right to provoke people into exploding. I also understand that this is a dirty way to fight. But whenever I see somebody picking on people weaker than themselves (in this case 36inc at attention whoring level beating the living crap out of Branden and Valdred with simple inexperience), I'd rather accept the lesser of two evils (in this case me beating the living crap out of 36inc) than watching the injustice go on and a shitload of people getting pissed off because of one guy. I'd rather piss off that one guy personally than let him piss off everybody else.

Phew, this ended up being longer than I expected. I didn't even organize it all that well. O_o
So much to dirty drama warfare. :V
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Calintz

That picture is priceless, and yet so demeaning, Lol...though I'm not ashamed that I laughed when I saw it.
Anyway, I think you did a good job putting this into perspective. I feel like I'm still maturing, but I see myself doing it, if that makes sense? When I analyze my own actions or thoughts and those of others it's as though some pieces are always missing from my puzzles. This kind of helped put one of those puzzles into place, Lol.

Anyway, I think you did a great job.

The Niche

Is calling someone an attention whore not name calling?
Level me down, I'm trying to become the anti-blizz!
Quote from: winkio on June 15, 2011, 07:30:23 pm
Ah, excellent.  You liked my amusing sideshow, yes?  I'm just a simple fool, my wit entertains the wise, and my wisdom fools the fools.



I'm like the bible, widely hated and beautifully quotable.

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Blizzard

Depends. I called 36inc an attention whore after I established my point of him seeking validation through attention.
I don't see attention whore so much of an insult as of an actual term for somebody who seeks attention. Do you have a better one?
In any case, it seem to me that it's only mild name calling.
Check out Daygames and our games:

King of Booze 2      King of Booze: Never Ever
Drinking Game for Android      Never have I ever for Android
Drinking Game for iOS      Never have I ever for iOS


Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Spaceman McConaughey


Blizzard

Check out Daygames and our games:

King of Booze 2      King of Booze: Never Ever
Drinking Game for Android      Never have I ever for Android
Drinking Game for iOS      Never have I ever for iOS


Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

The Niche

Over here, we call em attention seekers. I'll let you decide what's better.
Level me down, I'm trying to become the anti-blizz!
Quote from: winkio on June 15, 2011, 07:30:23 pm
Ah, excellent.  You liked my amusing sideshow, yes?  I'm just a simple fool, my wit entertains the wise, and my wisdom fools the fools.



I'm like the bible, widely hated and beautifully quotable.

Dropbox is this way, not any other way!