Florida law to regarding the use of bathrooms by trans people.

Started by PhoenixFire, March 08, 2015, 11:06:26 pm

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PhoenixFire

Quote from: Subsonic_Noise on July 01, 2011, 02:42:19 amNext off, how to create a first person shooter using microsoft excel.

Quote from: Zeriab on September 09, 2011, 02:58:58 pm<Remember when computers had turbo buttons?

ForeverZer0

I tend to agree that if you are born one gender, then that is forever what you will be. Mutilating your reproductive organs to resemble that of the opposite sex does not change your gender. I think it is no different than a man/woman using a bathroom of the opposite sex, only in this case the person decided to have surgery first.
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winkio

You know, I had a whole other post written up, but realized I was contradicting myself too much.

Basically, I don't think publicly transgender people will ever get the same rights.  As long as they keep their old gender a secret (from the public, obviously they can tell family, friends, etc.), they should have no problems.

I get how insensitive it sounds, but you can't have it both ways.  Identify as one gender or the other, not both.  If you want to change genders, it is your responsibility to make sure that strangers will only see you as your new gender.  Otherwise, you are putting yourself in a third category separate from both males and females, and that is a lonely minority to be in.

KK20

The thing that surprised me most from the article was that you can get fined a grand or be sent to prison for such an act.

In a conversation with Zexion some while ago in response to one of my friends on Facebook posting articles similar to this,
Quote
[2/17/2015 10:13:10 PM] KK20 Tyler: going off topic, im kinda tired of seeing these "there's more than 2 genders" thing
[2/17/2015 10:13:50 PM] KK20 Tyler: it's like the emos invaded sex
[2/17/2015 10:15:07 PM] Zexion: dude i know
[2/17/2015 10:15:42 PM] KK20 Tyler: even worse are the ones that are clearly fictional
[2/17/2015 10:16:04 PM] KK20 Tyler: like bunny-kin gender
[2/17/2015 10:16:10 PM] KK20 Tyler: wtf is that animu shit





   


   
   


   
   

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Ryex

Ok, obviously this is a problem for which there is no simple answer. There are only TWO biological genders but there are certainly more than two gender Identities. the four obvious ones are male, female, fluid (as in gender fluid), and non. beyond that it's all subjective and personally it doesn't really matter.

For the cases where Identity doesn't not line up with biological I personally think current law is our best option. namely you can only use the restroom of your legally assigned gender. considering that SRS is the only way to currently get your legal gender changed I don't have a problem with this and I don't see why it needs to change. If your mid transition I can understand wanting to hide the truth by using the restroom of your apparent gender but I can't think of a legal or moral ground for allowing it that doesn't compromise others rights.
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PhoenixFire

mkay, so being the one who posted the article, and, being someone who would be affected by this, I find it appropriate to weigh in here.


I have to correct a point made earlier; biologically speaking, there are more than two genders. Some people are born as both genders as well. Additionally, how do you possibly start to argue what gender someone is? You're "assigned" a physical gender by nature, but if you're in the middle of, or have transitioned to, a gender other than that in which you were born, why does this even matter enough to be brough up as an issue? Additionally, my thoughts on this are along the lines of how well the federal government will like it tat a state ius trying to pass a law that would actually break certain HIPAA laws; being a federal law, I see that causing ALOT of issues..


One thing I want to point out though, is that this is not a debate about whether or not more than two genders exist; it's a pretty widely accepted fact that transgender people are people as well, and that some people identify as neither, both, male, or female. Doesn't really matter what someone's opinion is on that part of the topic (though I acknowledge everyone is of course entitled to said opinion). My topic is meant as a debate about the ethics of the bill, and your reaction and discussions about it.
Quote from: Subsonic_Noise on July 01, 2011, 02:42:19 amNext off, how to create a first person shooter using microsoft excel.

Quote from: Zeriab on September 09, 2011, 02:58:58 pm<Remember when computers had turbo buttons?

Blizzard

I just want to add the Facebook has like 26 or so gender options. #_# So there's more than just those 4.

As for that law, it's weird. Limiting your freedom based on something gender-related seems absurd in this form. It seems like singling out a group. e.g. What about hermaphrodites? Are they not allowed in public rooms as well then? But they aren't transgender. Eh, I'm really not sure, but it doesn't seem right.
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ForeverZer0

With the exception of a hermaphrodite, which I for one do not really know what the "right" or "ethical" thing should be, there are NOT more than 2 genders. Because Facebook lists 26 genders does not change reality, it is a simple "politically correct" way "so that everyone can feel included".

If I cut my penis off and shape my body to have a vagina, and then go through some hormone therapy, I am still a man, I just decided to fuck up body. The same goes with a woman who has surgery and extends the female anatomy to resemble a penis. Yes, outwardly you may have made your body resemble that of the opposite sex (opposite meaning there are really only two), but I for one don't believe that qualifies.

I realize that my opinion is not really the popular one, it is not the liberal left-sided opinion that has become popular, especially among young people, the media, or the internet, but I hold to it as my belief.
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Vell

Okay, okay, so, you guys are getting something mixed up here.

You're equating gender with sex. i.e you're saying that the sex of someone given at birth by their genetic code is synonymous with their gender. This is not precisely true.

Gender is a social construct. It's tied physically to your evident sex, typically, but there have been numerous societies throughout history that have had multiple genders. It's been too long since I've researched it to throw examples offhand, but I believe the native american tribes had a few, as did... Ancient Japan? China? Nines but I dunno.

The thing about transgender people is that their mind identifies as one gender, but their physical sex doesn't match up. It's considered to cause a disconnect between an individual and their body. Similar to body dysmorphic disorders, i.e anorexia.

That doesn't mean people need to -advertise- that they're transgender all over the place, but at the same time it's a bit... bigoted to treat them differently based on that? But I'm coming from the viewpoint of someone who spends literally 80% of his mental energy in social situations acting on past monitoring of individuals and people and past social interactions I've been in and spending truly annoying amounts of energy being the one to make -everyone else- comfortable, so I can understand the frustration.

Nine hells I got distracted halfway through this post and forgot half of what I wanted to put in it.

Blizzard

Quote from: Vell on March 09, 2015, 01:13:03 pm
Nine hells I got distracted halfway through this post and forgot half of what I wanted to put in it.


LMAO, kinda sounds like that. xD

I see. I always thought that "gender" was the word for what you're physically born with. I totally forgot that the word sex also means your "physical gender".
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Vell

Well, as I said, speaking from a definitions standpoint, gender and sex are two different concepts.

Sex is what you -are- physically. Gender is what you -feel- you are, socially. The primary difference between them is that the former(Sex) is a physical trait, and the latter(Gender) is a social construct. For example, "typical female personality traits" are a part of one's gender, not one's sex.

The usual reason for transgender changes are due to a disconnect between one's gender and one's sex - and since people find changing their mind to be somewhat impossible or otherwise prefer to leave it be, in this case, the body - their physical sex - the more mutable of the two. The idea is that one feels trapped in one's own body, with parts and pieces that don't belong. The mental gender feels constrained by the physical sex, and there's a psychological desire to make the two match.

Whether or not it's a legitimate thing or not is, I believe, still open to debate. I tend to err on the side of not being a bigot, though, so if someone feels they are transgender, I will usually be accepting of their intended and perceived identity. Myself, if I identify as anything, it'd be more likely to be gender fluid than any particular gender - but then, mostly in the sense that I don't identify with either gender all that well. I've been happy being called a man, and online many people assume I'm a woman and that never bothered me either.

ForeverZer0

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PhoenixFire

I think part of the point is that you can not equate a physical state with a mental state.

I present you with this scenario though; you're in the bathroom, doing your thing. Another dude walks in, goes in a stall to do his thing, followed by another (you're in a busy mall, near the food court, so this scenario is possible =p ). Anyways, you don't see them, and they don't see you. Please tell me, in what way does it affect you if one of these men is in a stall because they lack the physical attribute to stand to urinate? It doesn't. There's really no way to tell me that it affects you enough to warrant such an invasion of privacy.

I understand both sides of the argument, and although I think both sides do have good points (physically speaking, you do have one of three possible sets of sexual organs, yet on a mental level, this can be a very different story, as Vell already stated), I still will hold firm that there's not a leg to stand on to enforce such a law. I mean, how would they even enforce this? Are Florida residents going to be required to carry a copy of their birth certificate around them anywhere they go? "Excuse me miss, someone thinks there's a chance you were born as a male. Can I see your original birth certificate please?"



EDIT: I would also like to point out that this is the same state that banned the terms "global warming" and "climate change"... A fun little read for you: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article12983720.html

By no means do I think all Floridians are idiots, but I'm wondering who the hell is electing these officials...
Quote from: Subsonic_Noise on July 01, 2011, 02:42:19 amNext off, how to create a first person shooter using microsoft excel.

Quote from: Zeriab on September 09, 2011, 02:58:58 pm<Remember when computers had turbo buttons?

Blizzard

But what about just being a feminine man? Your reproductive organs shouldn't have anything to do with what kind of person you are. Just because you are more of an emotional person, doesn't mean that you have to have a vagina instead of a penis to be happy. Sure, society may look down on feminine men, but just having a vagina doesn't make you the person you are either. I'm not a bigot around these things (or at least trying not to be one), but I'm having trouble understanding the need why the body has to be a female one if you are more of an emotional person or if you just are a person with more feminine traits than masculine. All of this goes for the reversed situation as well of course.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Vell

Most aren't going to be bothered by it. since most feminine men still feel like men. same for vice versa