ABS or SV?

[Blizzard]

I have to agree with Rose here. How can 2 be more than 4?

[Jackolas]

think what Calintz means is that the speed of the side view is slower than an ABS
because it is slower (and works in turns) you can fit more graphics in a singe attack, like 5 sprites (since you won't get attacked back if something takes to long)
wile in an ABS the enemy attacks back while you attack and you can't add long attacks just because you get attacked all the time.

look at example.
In FF you have really fancy moves that take loads of time. but have really pretty and long graphics
In for example the legend of zelda you only have short quick moves because else you get beaten to shit before you even finished your attack.

still don't dare to say what looks better ore what takes longer. (I like both type of game plays)

[Blizzard]

I disagree. Blizz-ABS lets you create any number of frames. And you can always freeze game execution during an animation and put in as many frames as you want without any enemies interrupting.

[Jackolas]

treu... did not know you could freez babs and display pretty animations (and kinda turning it in a turn based 4way rpg)

also if you look at how i explained it. there is not really one winner what takes the most work/grafics/frames
it only depends on how much work you wane put in it and how you want the game play

[Calintz]

Listen ...
I'm looking at this from the sense that the person using the SVBS is creating some form of higher detailed sprites (If you don't use higher detailed sprites, then a SVBS just isn't very entertaining). I am also pretending that the person using the ABS is using standard charasets as a base (because 75% of people do[mainly because most people can't sprite at a high detail]).

Creating ONE fully animated side view battler will consist of 10-15poses with a bare minimum of four frames per pose(BARE MINIMUM). Do the math and you're looking at anything between 40-60 highly detailed sprites(BARE MINIMUM).

For me to create one frame of any pose on a very detailed scale, it takes me 2-3hours respectively(without edits). That is one frame out of four, again ... bare minimum. I can easily complete all four directions for the walking animation of any charaset in the same amount of time!!

In order for me to animate the side view battler by finishing the other 3frames, I am looking at another 4-6hours; totaling anywhere between 6-10hours for ONE POSE out of 10-15. THAT IS ONE POSE!!

I won't guarantee because I've never done one, but give me 10hours and I could probably do an entire ABS set ...

But add the other 9-14poses required for any side view battler and you're looking at some serious time consumption, not to mention the difficulty of spriting at a higher level throughout the entire process ...

** And even in Rose's case where he is having someone else do the higher level spriting, that doesn't make the task harder, simply more tedious, because more frames are required. And personally, I don't see that guy finishing too many sprites for your game.

[Jackolas]

like i sayed... its just about how much time you wanne put into it.

both the SVBS and the ABS can handle unlimited sprites on different quality.
so the question is just how much time you spend in it.

in general you use more different sprites in a SVBS
but you need to create 4 directions (if not 8 ) at a ABS

so I would say in general its the same time with the same quality and the same amount.
its all about what you wane do and how good you want it to look

[Blizzard]

treu... did not know you could freez babs and display pretty animations (and kinda turning it in a turn based 4way rpg)

You can't. But it's not like it's more than a 10 line edit.

@Calintz: Helloooooo? Have you seen the sprites Rose is using? They have the same level of detail as the SV sprites you're talking about.
You do the math between 40-60 same-level-of-detail-as-SV-sprites for an ABS that requires a 3 directions, not just the left/right direction(assuming left/right are the same). And you can't count "poses" as an argument because in a good ABS you need to do attack/defend/skill/etc poses as well. You're looking at the situation from a completely narrow-sighted angle of view. And, with all due respect, besides that's you're starting to act like an ass and completely ignoring any argument that is given to you.

[Jackolas]

anyone noticed that we are all saying that the system we use the most (and like the most) is more work, better grafics and is harder to be used etc.

They are both the same in how hard it is to create the grafics.
if you don't take any time to sprite than both would look like crap and take the same amount of graphics
if you take loads of time both would look great and also have about the same amount of graphics.
the different is just the way the graphics are used.

to get back to the topic. ABS or SV?

both are great systems and both are used by great games.
both can create great graphics and both take the same amount of time.\
its just the taste of what system YOU like the most.

[Subsonic_Noise]

@Calintz: Helloooooo?

hi.
[/offtopic]
I think noone can really say which battle system is the best, it really is about what system suits your game. I mean, when I began my current game (Endzeit), I used an FMBS, which is the battle system used in the "Tales of" series and which is one of the most awesome battle systems ever, but it didn't fit in at all, so I changed to BlizzABS (which is, of course, also awesome xD).
If you tell me a bit about your game, I could tell you what I think would be better.

[Calintz]

@Blizzard!!
I'm not ignoring your argument. I wasn't the one who said anything about directions in relation to poses. Everyone else did, which is why I resorted to poses. That was my defense, not my offense in this argument. The only argument I have been trying to make is that creating ABS sprites is not more difficult than creating SBVS sprites.

There is ONE member on this entire forum saying he'll be using highly detailed sprites with an ABS, and he isn't even doing the work himself ... O_o. Frankly, I don't think your friend will follow through to the end, because of the amount of work that will be involved due to the different directions at a high level. I will say again as I have like 5times now ... The ABS requires MORE WORK, but that doesn't make the graphics harder to create. If you're friend actually does pull through for you, it won't make your statement anymore true either. He is only matching the detail of any standard SVBS. The amount of work involved in creating something in relation to it's difficulty are two different things. I'm only trying to say that ABS sprites are not harder to make, and they aren't ...

P.S.
I think we should move this to spam.

[Blizzard]

Frankly, I don't think your friend will follow through to the end, because of the amount of work that will be involved due to the different directions at a high level.

Rose is not my friend, but in his defense, he already finished a few games.

I will say again as I have like 5times now ...

Is that as many times as you IMAGINED somebody said it was HARDER to create ABS sprites?

The ABS requires MORE WORK, but that doesn't make the graphics harder to create. If you're friend actually does pull through for you, it won't make your statement anymore true either. He is only matching the detail of any standard SVBS. The amount of work involved in creating something in relation to it's difficulty are two different things. I'm only trying to say that ABS sprites are not harder to make, and they aren't ...

Now read the entire topic again. NOBODY is claiming that it's HARDER to create sprites for an ABS. I really have no idea where you pull that argument from. The only person who said "hard" and "graphics" in the same sentence was LB who said that it's hard to decide which level of detail is suitable from the animation aspect of the sprites.

[RoseSkye]

The ABS requires MORE WORK, but that doesn't make the graphics harder to create.

Cal.. if you want to go that route. The majority of people who does anything in rpg maker rips sprites, scripts, systems, and resources. The only work they do is basically writing stuff in the editor and saying they should get some credit. So why should anyone listen to you when you don't know how much detail goes into anything let alone SV.

SZ did both Sideview and ABS, and the ABS was more work..
Mork work

Spoiler: ShowHide

There is ONE member on this entire forum saying he'll be using highly detailed sprites with an ABS, and he isn't even doing the work himself

How the fuck do you think they concept art is made? You think I'm not a spriter? You think I can't draw?
I am the one doing all of the concept work, you ignoramus. I'm also doing the storyline, and organizing my 23 person team. Don't say stuff without basis.

O_o. Frankly, I don't think your friend will follow through to the end, because of the amount of work that will be involved due to the different directions at a high level.

You know how old Legend of Harpine is? Five years old. I've been working in RMXP for 2 years.. once again, stop making assumptions. I'm not you. I have a reason to finish my projects no matter how long it takes.

[Fallen Angel X]

Frankly, I don't think your friend will follow through to the end, because of the amount of work that will be involved due to the different directions at a high level.

Yeah, that ain't cool Calintz. That's pretty much attacking Rose, which isn't very Calintz of you ._.

Both sideview and ABS have a shitload of possibilities. You can also create extremely detailed sprites for both of them, as shown by Rose and Calintz. You can argue graphics-wise, but I don't think that will really go anywhere. The more important arguement, is dependant on the game that the system is being applied to. For example, a game with the intention of continuous fighting will benefit from an ABS. This is due to the fact that in a SVBS, the battles would become horribly repetitive. In a game where there's considerably less battles, and focuses on strategy, and battles are a tad bit lengthier, SVBS, or TBS in general, would fit more appropriately. And, it's also a level of preference, as well. TBQH, I prefer TBS system over all, like TLoL :3. Mainly b/c my game is following a similar format xD

[Blizzard]

TLoL isn't using a TBS. O_o It's a simple turn-based system...

EDIT: Oh wait, TBS as in Turn-Based System. I thought you meant Tactical Battle System.

[Jackolas]

I'm working on a game with a SVBS

but that is more because I'm to scared to use BABS.

[Calintz]

@Blizzard:
I wasn't talking to you when I said "if your friend pulls through. I was talking to Rose and referring to his spriter.
My argument comes from Legacyblade's very first post. Under the pros he lists that SVBS are easier on the spriters (means the same as ABS is harder on the spriters).

@RoseSkye:
If you know me, then you would know that all of my material is 100% original.
Rip doesn't enter into a spriter's definition. That's what I am ... a spriter, and I'm good at it. So yes, I do know how much detail needs to be put into projects, and if you knew anything about me, I don't ask for credit unless whatever I am asking it for is 100% original AND 100% mine.

The real funny thing here ... is that you attacked me with false pretense. Blizz assumed (i'm not attacking you Blizz) when I said friend, that I was referring to you, when in fact, I was referring to the guy doing all of your sprites that you mentioned earlier ... SV or whatever. I never even meant to be arrogant or bring him down either; I simply stated a personal opinion ...

-sighs-
I really don't feel like arguing anymore though ... so I'm not gonna respond to the rest of your nasty little message, and I'm gonna get back on topic.

You guys win, okay. You can all celebrate your victory. ABS resource creation is more difficult ...

It seems as though I may have offended some people ...
To everyone except RoseSkye ...
I apologize ... sorry Rose, but you have a way of acting first and asking questions later, and in most cases ... that's not a problem, but everything that comes out of that orifice in your face is just one negative thing to the next ...

P.S.
I even congratulated you on your fully animated ABS sprite too ... geesh. You might wanna look into anger management.

@Jackolas: POWER TO YOU MAN ... POWER TO YOU!!

[legacyblade]

Alright, I'm just going to say one thing on why I find it easier to make a large sprite vs a small one: more space. You can have better looking poses, more detail, and it's easier to FIT all the detail in. There are a lot of details that I'm not sure how to cram in the RTP sprites that I can fit in larger ones. While I do prefer making all my sprites RTP since it takes more TIME to make larger sprites, I find that larger sprites are easier to make because I have more space to work in. for example, spriting a 60x60 character portrait is SO much easier than spriting the hair on an RTP sprite. It takes more time, but is much easier.

However, due to the amount of posing involved in animated sprite battle systems (ABS, SV, or whatever), it actually takes me a heck of a lot less time to do a side view battler's poses for a given move than it does to make the ABS battler's same moves. While side veiw sprites take more time (about 1.5 times as much), a single animation for a side view sprite is generally 4 frames of animation. Whereas a ABS animation is 4 frames for 3 different angles (the front, the side, the back). If you think of it mathematically where SV stands for the amount of time a single side view frame takes, RTP stands for the time a single RTP sprite frame takes, SVAnimation stands for the time a single animation of a side view takes, and ABSAnimation stands for the time a single RTP ABS animation takes....

RTP = 20 (I just gave it a number for the sake of argument. The time just depends on what kind of pose you're doing)

SV = RTP * 1.5

SVAnimation = SV * 4 (4 frames of animation)

ABSAnimation = RTP * 12 (12 frames of animation)

Now let's compare the results

SVAnimation = 120

ABSAnimation = 240

According to this, if it takes you almost twice as long to make a single frame of animation for a side view battler as a frame of RTP animation, it'll still take you twice as long to make a full RTP ABS battler's animation. Even if you make enough animations in a side view to be taking advantage of all the animations needed to use all of blizzABS' features (a charge animation for each skill, a skill animation for each skill, and the same with every weapon and item, as well as the running, sneaking, and jumping sprites), then you'd still spend only half the time making a complete side view battler.

Just my ten cents. And I'm customizing all the animations for myself in my own game using an ABS, so I DO know how long it takes to do these stinking animations (and so does blizz, as he's waiting on me to finish them )

[Calintz]

I agree ... just your ten cents.
It takes me much longer than 1.5 to do a side view battler. Then again, I sprite at 128 x 96 for them.

It may be because I'm so used to RTP, I can slam those animations out no problem, and because I don't do sideview battlers very often ... it takes me a long time.

I'm just tired of arguing over something so stupid, Lol ...
Even though I kind of started it. So to all except RoseSkye ... I apologize ...

I won't care what anybody says you know ...
the way my mind plays it out, things are more difficult if you do a sideview.

I mean, I only look at this from a spriter's view, because that's all that I am. I sprite, and do events ...

[legacyblade]

Ah, if you're fast at RTP animations, then that'd make sense. I'm just a perfectionist, so sometimes, due to the limited space, it actually takes me LONGER to do a single RTP pose than a single SV pose. But that's  because I'm used to animating in 3D and am frustrated by how difficult it is to get truely GOOD poses with a RTP sprite since you have such little room in which to make the sprite. This is greatly helped in SV sprites since you have more room, and they're at a 3/4 or side view, which is easier for me to pose than a front view.

[Calintz]

I can feel you there ...
I started with the RTP style, and mastered is first. I think that 's why. The side view is what I prefer, but I'm still relatively new to creating templates for it. I can see where animating something from front view would be more difficult, but all you really have to do is define the outline and scale limbs. If he is kicking from the front, then make his foot bigger to emphasize the motion.

In Rose's case, he left the foot the same size on his kick animation. The sprite look good, but there is no real emphasis on the foot, only the motion ...
http://forum.chaos-project.com/index.php?topic=4771.0