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Started by Calintz, May 31, 2009, 06:33:28 am

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Calintz

May 31, 2009, 06:33:28 am Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 06:37:15 am by Calintz16438
I had recently posted an opinion about how I believe that scripts that are either complex, or written in a special manner because their creators are either stubborn, trying to show off, or just simply inexperienced, should be kept to themselves and their projects alone.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is why I believe that here at Chaos Project, our Global Admin(Blizzard) was so kind as to incorporated databases for both Event Systems and Scripts. Only the best would make it this far, but I also realized that even though all of the event systems and scripts in the databases are great; not all of them meet the standards of my personal opinion ...

**I know that may sound harsh, but hear me out...

I know it would be WAY too much work now, because of all the extensive material in them currently, but in retrospect; I think it would have been awesome if the moderators had agreed in the beginning(when invisionfree became obsolete and the forums moved here) to run 'extensive' checks and reviews of any new scripts that are submitted into their proper sections for 'overall compatibility and cleanliness' before they were admitted into their according databases.

I think the way that it's done here at Chaos Project, is that most of the moderators will play the DEMOs of these systems and scripts, and if they succeed without error, and they look adequate in potential, then they make their way into the database. Looking back, I think it would have been nice if stricter standards had been applied to the Forum's Databases ...

I'm not trying to say that Chaos Project would have been better off, or that it is bad now, I just think it would have been neat to have a section of the forums where members could go to find scripts and event systems that upon catching their eye and raising their hopes, stayed true in the end and never failed due to incompatibility among other script or event systems. I just know from personal experience, that finding a new script that excites the hell out of you, and then shatters those very dreams with unrelenting compatibility issues, is just one of the worst things ever!! Lol.

**What do you guys think??

BTW:
When I say that scripts were written in a special manner, I refer to scripts like MOG's scripts. MOG uses an abundance of ... quite frankly ... UNNECESSARY modules to distinguish his scripts from others. I'm not bagging on him, but it makes them a chore to read and understand which really complicates the modification of them without extensive scripting knowledge, which "I" don't have ...

Blizzard

I don't agree so much. I think everybody should be given the same chance to submit something. If it's a bad scripts, people won't use it. You do have a point, though. I thought the Script Dasabase Index on the homepage would go around such a problem. When people are looking for a specific type of script, they would go through the index, find links for all similar scripts (i.e. a CMS) and check them out.

Currently the only thing you need to do to get your script in the database is to apply the topic template. IMO everybody who fails at that doesn't deserve their script to be moved into the database. Everybody else is obviously professional enough (hahaha) to follow rules.

But on the other side again, not many scripters are experience and some people don't have experience with scripting at all. For the latter it's very useful that there are a few scripters with less experience, because they will make the scripts the big guys won't since the big guys are already working on bigger stuff and have no time for the small stuff. It's true that the quality of such scripts isn't that good, but on the other side, I've seen scripts from so-called scripting gods that should have never been released. Why? They are terribly overcomplicated and coded poorly. It works, they have a nice and flashy demo, but I could probably remove 20% of unnecessary code just in the first reading. They are structured terribly and coded as hacks. Rather than using stuff that is already there for compatibility, they think they're smarter than everybody else and they recode loads of stuff and change the actual concept. Which ABS besides Blizz-ABS uses the standard damage algorithms? None. Sure, sometimes it makes sense to code something from scratch because the mechanics of the stuff already there might be coded poorly or isn't extensive. But then you do it right and don't make yet another subsystem that sucks ass which only differs from the previous one in having compatibility issues with everything else. A good example here would be my Input module. The original is pretty poor, I made one that extends the original by adding all keys. And it works with everything else. This is called object oriented modelling and most people seem to fail at it.

Now, I went a bit offtopic there. My point is that it's ok to have a few scripts that weren't coded so well because it gives scripters who aren't that good a chance to become better and get feedback. In case you haven't noticed, I have revised all scripts that have been added to Tons since I want to keep its quality on a high level. In the worst case we have the Script Database Index where you can find competing scripts.

The compatibility problem is pretty much a result of bad scripts. Since most scripters don't know the RTP scripts from memory, they can't make stuff that compatible. Even though stuff like this should be mentioned and possible conflicts should be included in

We are a community and if we don't help each other and give each other a chance to become better, we're being elitists, a bunch of conceited assholes and we will suffer from degenerating overspecialization (as in: the guys who are supposed to actually know something only think that they know something, because nobody can tell them otherwise since nobody can become better).

I will avoid mentioning any names.
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Calintz

May 31, 2009, 07:55:21 am #2 Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 08:00:57 am by Calintz16438
I knew you would throw that bit at me where everybody deserves the same chance, and again I agree 100% with you Blizzard, but isn't that what the regular scripting section should be for?? All scripters, beginners to experts have the same opportunities as everyone else in that section alone. Not everything makes it to the database as is, and as you said yourself, that it only requires a template and a full functionality to be inducted.

And again, another personal opinion ...
Don't you think as I do in the sense that the people who have put great time in developing their skills as a scripter, AND who use those skills to keep the compatibility as such a high level are the ones who really deserve to have their scripts in the database?? Again, I know it sounds as though I am separating scripters into two classes and I don't want to, but I feel that the database should be used 'mainly' for scripts that can be added to ANY project with minimal chances of failing due to compatibility issues.

I just think people would go to the database expecting to find scripts that will work with their projects, and it is a huge disappointment when you get a big fat compatibility error, you know??

This is where I slightly disagree with you Blizzard - but I DO see where you're coming from.
By stating that I would 'have liked' to see stricter rules enforced, I'm not trying to discredit anybody, or diminish their chances to get noted for their work, I just think that if it's gonna be a database, it needs to hold only the best stuff, and that everything should be relatively compatible as compatibility has become a very important issue with the newer RPGMakers, since Enterbrain incorporated the ability to give no namers the chance to try their hand at scripting.

And again, it's a personal opinion that I'm making when I state that I don't think by separating the more experienced scripts from the less experienced, that we're counting out the amateurs. I realize that we are a forum here, and a community that thrives from the aide of others, but I don't think that the particular placement of the scripts themselves will discredit the lesser scripts.

People will help one another regardless of the script's section and origin. We are here, because we want to be. We are here, because we want to help others succeed alongside ourselves as we travel down the same, and yet different roads.

At least that's how I feel, and that is why I have been a member here for so long, and Chaos Project is my home page for the internet, and the only forum where I'm actually active.

I can see 'some' people taking offense by not achieving database status, but in the same sense, having the fact that it's not quite there yet, can give a lesser experienced scripter the motivation and encouragment to strive to be better just as much as those who may take it in a demeaning fashion. In this sense, only those who deserve to get better .. will get better.

We have threads here at Chaos Project that were built solely to insult other members, Lol, so if the members here decide that they can't take CONSTRUCTIVE criticism,(database restrictions) then they aren't really here to get better. They are either here to show off, or prove that they are better than everyone else. You know, whatever it is that kids do nowadays when they register on forums they don't belong on, LMAO.

BTW:
While the Script Index is an awesome feature on the site, it doesn't help the compatibility problems. They can find what they want sure, but there is still no guarantee that it will work with their projects ...

Blizzard

Hm... The database was originally meant to be a collection of all scripts that work and that's what I think you want to change. I think it should remain as it is.

What would make sense, though, would be to add some kind of additional tag to the title like [HQ], [MQ], [LQ] and [UQ] for High Quality, Medium Quality, Low Quality and Unrated Quality respectively or adding those tags as part of the template. Or it could be similar like a rating scale from 0 to 10. But then again each script would have to be reviewed by somebody who has the experience to rate a script and I lack the time to review each new script posted.

What WOULD be possible would be a rating system where members could rate topics. In that case the displayed quality of a script could differ from the actual quality because members can influence that rating. But then again it would actually be the quality rated by people which can be taken as a realistic rating. But yet again we have the karma function which somewhat shows somebody's reputation in the community. And yet again on the other side a member can get a high reputation by having many event systems or art or having many low quality scripts instead of a few high quality scripts.
(OMG, so many contradictions. I am really good at debating myself. xD)

Let's see what others think of these ideas. If the rating system is thought to be a good idea (which is definitely a better way to rate scripts/topics than levels/karma), I could definitely add something like that.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Calintz

Exactly ... we're on the same page now.

What I had said in my 1st post though, was that the database was something "I" would have liked to see done in a different manner when the new site came up. What you have here now, IS a DATABASE, no doubt ... that's the thing. The database is perfect as is, because it represents what it is proclaimed to be. I agree that the database shouldn't be changed, I was just wondering what other members thought about my suggestion themselves.

As for the realistic suggestions, the Abbreviated titles wouldn't work, because it would be the scripter who starts the thread who names it accordingly. If they don't have the proper knowledge, then they could overly or discredit it ...

Maybe you could just have the moderators check the stuff and leave [HC] if they approve it for high compatibility. This way, if a user scrolls by and sees [HC] then they know that they can use it without having to worry about much.

It would basically just be playing catch up for the moderators. Once they catch up, then the new stuff would be easy. Only have them check what's already in the database.

Blizzard

Still, to give out tags like that the scripts need to be tested and people don't really have time for this.
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Aqua

*phew*  That was a lot of reading. :)
Was very good though.

I think the Database should remain as is.
A few times I've searched through the DB to find a feature that I really wanted.
Even if it wasn't fully compatible with my other scripts, I could use it as a reference and make it compatible (with credit of course).

It's also pretty fun to scroll down the list to see what scripts there are.
I /just/ found out about Fanta's moving windows script yesterday...  And I really need that for a CMS I'll attempt to make.


As for the rating system, we would have to find a way to make it work so that it wouldn't be abused.  Also, it'd be kinda hard to rate scripts on an even scale everytime.

What if there's a really good script that is compatible with almost everything... But then there's just 1 script which is also very compatible... but the two just don't mix?

This also brings out the fact that the rating would have to be updated every time a new script is made... I think...

Starrodkirby86

There aren't any trolls here that will just rate something low already.

If we are going to have a rating system, then make sure the database can recognize who voted and what rating s/he gave. This way, if there is someone who's just rating low numbers to everything that guy sees, action can be taken (Of course, after some watching).

Though User Ratings wouldn't be a good evaluation to how well a script is coded (At least it isn't a direct one). It's more of a..."Did I like this script?" sort of ideal.

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Diokatsu

Quote from: Aqua on May 31, 2009, 11:39:20 am
As for the rating system, we would have to find a way to make it work so that it wouldn't be abused.  Also, it'd be kinda hard to rate scripts on an even scale everytime.

1-4 scale that only members could vote on once.

Ew, ratings? How about approved and not approved. Have some people test for compatibility with other popular scripts. That's so frigging long Calintz. I'm not going to read it right now. @_@

Calintz

May 31, 2009, 03:23:48 pm #9 Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 03:29:23 pm by Calintz16438
Lol, guys, guys, guys ...
I'm not even suggesting that the database needs changing. I was just wondering how people felt on my opinion about separating scripts in general, and now I think I know how you all feel, HAHA!!

Anyway, I don't think a rating system is needed ... things really are fine as is, but if this is something that has caught Blizzard's eye, then I shun all forms of rating systems, because unless they are administered by the skilled scripters, they would be ineffective, there is no way around it. It falls onto the same line as the moderators and skilled scripters reviewing the scripts before letting them into the database.  :P It contradicts with itself. "I" believe that only the more skilled scripters who have a solid understanding should have the power to rate. I knew, and Blizzard agreed that there just isn't enough time for that.

First thing is ... We have to decide if any modification is even needed. By modification, I don't mean changes, I mean modification. Adding features to the already existing database to make it better than before. So let's decide whether we even want to rack our brains, and then ... if we do want to improve the forums, then we need to think outside the box, and ponder up something new. Something unique that will work.

Blizzard

To be honest, I'd rather help out a scripter to improve rather than judging script by script. #_#
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Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

Calintz

I understand ...
That is what the regular scripting section is for though, right!?  :V:

Ryex

lol looking at the time stamps I almost get the impression that this was prompted by our misunderstanding in my battle system thread... but thats off topic so...

I see your point Calintz I myself would remove my Pokemon script from the database as it is FAR below the quality I would of liked to give but I didn't realizes it at the time so it got into the data base anyway. [offtopic] I WOULD go redo it but I feel it would be a lot of work for very little return as not many people are going to use it. [/of topic]

as for a rating system I don't really know how we could make a fair one. too many chances to get someone mad ya know? is someone was of the view that their script should receive a rating of high quality but ended up getting a poor or average rating because it wan't really that good or it was just not ratted fairly.... can you se where i'm going? yes? good.
I no longer keep up with posts in the forum very well. If you have a question or comment, about my work, or in general I welcome PM's. if you make a post in one of my threads and I don't reply with in a day or two feel free to PM me and point it out to me.<br /><br />DropBox, the best free file syncing service there is.<br />

Calintz

I see where you're coming from, but that's constructive criticism. It's honesty, and that is what helps people improve.

Ryex

true true I guess you can't please the whole world at once that would just be foolishness. :P
I no longer keep up with posts in the forum very well. If you have a question or comment, about my work, or in general I welcome PM's. if you make a post in one of my threads and I don't reply with in a day or two feel free to PM me and point it out to me.<br /><br />DropBox, the best free file syncing service there is.<br />

Calintz


Blizzard

He meant that not everybody is the same and not everybody can take criticism of whatever type.

@Ryex: I was conviced that it this was triggered by an offsite script/scripter. xD
If you think your pokemon menu isn't good enough, just improve it. I went numerous times through old scripts and improved them. :)
Check out Daygames and our games:

King of Booze 2      King of Booze: Never Ever
Drinking Game for Android      Never have I ever for Android
Drinking Game for iOS      Never have I ever for iOS


Quote from: winkioI do not speak to bricks, either as individuals or in wall form.

Quote from: Barney StinsonWhen I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.